Kudos to E&Y for taking a radical approach to hiring.
However, as a concerned parent, I hope impressionable youngsters don't mistake this for 'Yay, I don't have to go to college to get a decent job anymore'.
The lifetime earnings for a college degree holder[1] is probably a lot more than for those without a degree.
If you can afford it, go to college. If you can help it, don't drop out. Get that degree. If possible, get a Masters degree. Those six years staying in school getting your undergraduate and graduate degrees, will make a huge difference in the rest of your life
We are not all destined to found unicorns or be an early employee in one. For the rest of us mortals, going to college will make a difference.
Even a Thiel Fellow probably needs to be admitted to a very competitive school to drop out and get the Thiel Fellowship.
> The lifetime earnings for a college degree holder[1] is probably a lot more than for those without a degree.
> Even a Thiel Fellow probably needs to be admitted to a very competitive school to drop out and get the Thiel Fellowship.
You pointed out the flaw in that sort of thinking yourself. Absolutely you should strive be the type of person who can get into and graduate from an elite school. The value of then actually doing it is what's suspect.
I don't think there have been any statistically significant studies done on such people (who were accepted to elite schools and declined to go in favor of starting a company), but I would love to read them if anyone has seen one.
>The lifetime earnings for a college degree holder[1] is probably a lot more than for those without a degree.
The problem with these kind of studies is that they take the average, and income only has a lower bound. From my personal observation, many of my university classmates (Spain, '12) would have been better off if they had opted for a technical degree.
Oh, I don't know - it just depends on what your kids want to do. I think it's sad that we've reached a point where you're expected to have a four year degree, and $80k of debt in order to get a job as a receptionist or a barista.
Degrees are the most useful for immigration purposes I've found. It lets you have an ability to work in many places in the world.
But that is bureaucratic requirements more than any specific merit about the degree, where you get your degree or how much you spend on your degree, time or money.
Does getting that graduate degree help? I stuck it out for the degree (Computer Science), and I don't think it helped much with my job prospects. I get paid the same as my peers who only did undergrad.
> Kudos to E&Y for taking a radical approach to hiring.
Kudos to E&Y for taking a sensible approach to hiring.
As I'm sure your aware most colleges and secondary schools share similar patterns for teaching and student evaluation. Those patterns are not optimal for all brain types. Furthermore those patterns are not optimal for all work types.
Anecdotally many of use can point to one or more unimpressive individuals holding impressive credentials of post graduate education.
Personally speaking, I'm a high school dropout. I work in a niche that did not exist during the time I would have been in college. What degree plan would have served me best? Oddly enough, a degree in philosophy. Obviously that would have been mine (and my parents) last choice.
I'm not saying college or secondary education are bad, it's just that when I look ahead for my children, it's a crap shoot. Should I pressure them to attend college? Why? Short of medicine, and certain credentialed professions what essential knowledge about their future profession will they learn in college that they could not possibly learn on their own (ab initio or ad hoc) through various other means?
'Yay, I don't have to go to college to get a decent job anymore'
That's always been true. Vocational careers earn pretty good money (quite a lot more than a lot of degrees) and have good career prospects, particularly with parents looking down on vocational training for a career.
College is not a good idea for everyone. People who struggled in high school are unlikely to finish college, and most of the college premium comes from the degree itself: there's a huge gap in earnings between "some college" and "college graduate" (and less of a gap in student loan balance).
This is a very long time coming. So extremely talented individuals who had to work through university (and so grades suffered) will have an opportunity to compete on a level playing ground. TBH, this makes sense. Many of the well rounded / think for yourself / independent people I met in university were supporting themselves while in University.
Does E&Y really want well rounded / think for yourself / independent people? Or do they want people who will learn the regulations; who will apply them ruthlessly; and who are always acting to maximize the profitability of the company?
>Instead, the company will use numerical tests and online “strength” assessments to assess the potential of applicants.
I'm not certain that focusing on numeracy tests to assess an applicant is such a great step forward. I get the sense that this will only encourage candidates to "study for the test" and will actually produce more false positives.
I think this is a good move, but I'm worried that people will understand it as "education is useless, I should go work".
The problem here is very obviously that most educational systems are completely broken. The american one maybe the most, since it's so "famous".
I come from France, I had a better education than you can get probably anywhere in the world (I went to les Mines de Paris, roughly equivalent to the top 10% of MIT), and EVERYTHING, since I was 5 years old, was free and based on merit. This leads to people with degrees actually being much more performant in the workplace. I am 100% sure this study would have opposite results in France, as it is very easy to look at what the alumni of my school go to become.
People, education is primordial, paying for education is a sin that brings all this shit out. Someone needs to fix this, and probably no one will in my lifetime in america, it is very sad
Glad to hear you're happy with your education in France. But...
First: The article is about the U.K., not the U.S., so I'm not sure why you're bemoaning the state of U.S. education here.
Second:
>I come from France, I had a better education than you can get probably anywhere in the world (I went to les Mines de Paris, roughly equivalent to the top 10% of MIT), and EVERYTHING, since I was 5 years old, was free and based on merit. This leads to people with degrees actually being much more performant in the workplace. I am 100% sure this study would have opposite results in France, as it is very easy to look at what the alumni of my school go to become.
This is not very persuasive. One could run the same line of argument about American (or Chinese, or British, etc.) universities, since in the U.S., like France and most other places, it remains the case that college graduates earn much more than their peers without college education, and even more so (sometimes dramatically) at elite universities.
But apparently this just doesn't necessarily translate into success at Ernst & Young.
> I come from France, I had a better education than you can get probably anywhere in the world (I went to les Mines de Paris, roughly equivalent to the top 10% of MIT)
What is it about French Universities that makes them so exceptional? I ask because I've heard this "I come from a French University, and it is reaaaally good" refrain from a lot of French people – but I haven't seen that many exceptional performance amongst them. [I should say though, I have met some really great and hard-working French university graduates, so the overall level is definitely quite good.]
I understand it that E&Y's priorities are not with successfully educated candidates.
Who can easily get onto degree courses (but may not be successful there), and then easily be coached through online tests? One type of person: rich people with connections.
The big consultancies don't really give a crap what you studied or what skills you have, they just want your intelligence and self-discipline. Now they're dropping the assumption that not having a degree means you're not smart. Nothing more, and nothing less.
(Everything I've ever heard about these consultancies suggest they are very bad places to work, if anyone's tempted)
Maggie Stilwell, EY’s managing partner for talent, said the changes would “open up opportunities for talented individuals regardless of their background and provide greater access to the profession”.
My wife's employer instituted a similar policy: instead of a qualification requirement, they now ask candidates to do a lengthy take-home exercise.
Her experience is that, if anything, it's actually damaging for accessibility, because in practice the candidates who have the confidence (and possibly outside help) to do well are pretty well exclusively the ones with traditional backgrounds, a sense of entitlement, and high grades from good institutions.
Many, but I'd not say all, blanket degree requirements are a unfair and inefficiency-driving discriminatory practice along the lines of the criminal record check-box.
We need a ban the box campaign for academic credentials so that applicants are judged on their skill and merit and not on too often flimsy credentials.
This is a great step. In several cases, degrees can be a good way to filter applicants, but having them as mandatory requirements in these cases can sometimes deny a potentially good candidate an opportunity. For example, I know a lot of great front-end engineers who don't know what Big O is.
Good! Having done a lot of recruiting recently I've noticed no correlation between degree classification and problem solving ability. I have a 2:2 myself :)
The title for the HN submission is currently very misleading.
HN headline: "Ernst and Young Drops Degree Requirement for Recruitment"
THE headline: "Ernst and Young drops degree classification threshold for graduate recruitment"
The meaning is very different: the first suggests you no longer need to have a degree at all; the second merely suggests you no longer need to have done well in your degree.
Also worth noting is that Ernst and Young already had a 'EY School Leaver Programme' (5 year training programme for people direct from school).
Companies like them and Deloitte still offer traditional auditing and accounting services, but their cash cow is mostly in IT contracting for government and Fortune 500-type companies.
Well duh. If we don't need degrees to create computer programs, then why would someone need a degree for any other job in the world, which just involve pushing buttons on software programs we create?
[+] [-] gjkood|10 years ago|reply
However, as a concerned parent, I hope impressionable youngsters don't mistake this for 'Yay, I don't have to go to college to get a decent job anymore'.
The lifetime earnings for a college degree holder[1] is probably a lot more than for those without a degree.
If you can afford it, go to college. If you can help it, don't drop out. Get that degree. If possible, get a Masters degree. Those six years staying in school getting your undergraduate and graduate degrees, will make a huge difference in the rest of your life
We are not all destined to found unicorns or be an early employee in one. For the rest of us mortals, going to college will make a difference.
Even a Thiel Fellow probably needs to be admitted to a very competitive school to drop out and get the Thiel Fellowship.
[1] Forbes; http://www.forbes.com/sites/troyonink/2014/05/05/federal-res...
[+] [-] aianus|10 years ago|reply
> Even a Thiel Fellow probably needs to be admitted to a very competitive school to drop out and get the Thiel Fellowship.
You pointed out the flaw in that sort of thinking yourself. Absolutely you should strive be the type of person who can get into and graduate from an elite school. The value of then actually doing it is what's suspect.
I don't think there have been any statistically significant studies done on such people (who were accepted to elite schools and declined to go in favor of starting a company), but I would love to read them if anyone has seen one.
[+] [-] nailer|10 years ago|reply
Conversely, six years of actual experience mean you'll be able to apply for senior jobs that pay well, and you'll have a fun, debt-free 20s.
[+] [-] josu|10 years ago|reply
The problem with these kind of studies is that they take the average, and income only has a lower bound. From my personal observation, many of my university classmates (Spain, '12) would have been better off if they had opted for a technical degree.
[+] [-] rcurry|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mahyarm|10 years ago|reply
But that is bureaucratic requirements more than any specific merit about the degree, where you get your degree or how much you spend on your degree, time or money.
[+] [-] mkaziz|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryanmarsh|10 years ago|reply
Kudos to E&Y for taking a sensible approach to hiring.
As I'm sure your aware most colleges and secondary schools share similar patterns for teaching and student evaluation. Those patterns are not optimal for all brain types. Furthermore those patterns are not optimal for all work types.
Anecdotally many of use can point to one or more unimpressive individuals holding impressive credentials of post graduate education.
Personally speaking, I'm a high school dropout. I work in a niche that did not exist during the time I would have been in college. What degree plan would have served me best? Oddly enough, a degree in philosophy. Obviously that would have been mine (and my parents) last choice.
I'm not saying college or secondary education are bad, it's just that when I look ahead for my children, it's a crap shoot. Should I pressure them to attend college? Why? Short of medicine, and certain credentialed professions what essential knowledge about their future profession will they learn in college that they could not possibly learn on their own (ab initio or ad hoc) through various other means?
[+] [-] protomyth|10 years ago|reply
That's always been true. Vocational careers earn pretty good money (quite a lot more than a lot of degrees) and have good career prospects, particularly with parents looking down on vocational training for a career.
[+] [-] markdown|10 years ago|reply
A 34yr old man with a PhD who can't even get a job stacking shelves and who was better off 17 years ago after high school.
As a child/teen, he was told:
> The lifetime earnings for a college degree holder[1] is probably a lot more than for those without a degree.
> Those six years staying in school getting your undergraduate and graduate degrees, will make a huge difference in the rest of your life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pglv6VrA8ro
[+] [-] evanpw|10 years ago|reply
[1] http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2014/09/what_every_high....
[+] [-] gcb0|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gjkood|10 years ago|reply
In my experience, the model is to get one or two really smart people into the client and then a boatload of rookies to pump up the billing machine.
Every client is a training on the job experience for the rookies.
[+] [-] nailer|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blazespin|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jsprogrammer|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Retra|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] endzone|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throw_for_throw|10 years ago|reply
I'm not certain that focusing on numeracy tests to assess an applicant is such a great step forward. I get the sense that this will only encourage candidates to "study for the test" and will actually produce more false positives.
[+] [-] blazespin|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xamuel|10 years ago|reply
Like it or not, that's what a lot of people do in university anyway. If a half-decade, super-expensive middleman can be cut, cut it.
[+] [-] nichochar|10 years ago|reply
The problem here is very obviously that most educational systems are completely broken. The american one maybe the most, since it's so "famous".
I come from France, I had a better education than you can get probably anywhere in the world (I went to les Mines de Paris, roughly equivalent to the top 10% of MIT), and EVERYTHING, since I was 5 years old, was free and based on merit. This leads to people with degrees actually being much more performant in the workplace. I am 100% sure this study would have opposite results in France, as it is very easy to look at what the alumni of my school go to become.
People, education is primordial, paying for education is a sin that brings all this shit out. Someone needs to fix this, and probably no one will in my lifetime in america, it is very sad
[+] [-] pdabbadabba|10 years ago|reply
First: The article is about the U.K., not the U.S., so I'm not sure why you're bemoaning the state of U.S. education here.
Second:
>I come from France, I had a better education than you can get probably anywhere in the world (I went to les Mines de Paris, roughly equivalent to the top 10% of MIT), and EVERYTHING, since I was 5 years old, was free and based on merit. This leads to people with degrees actually being much more performant in the workplace. I am 100% sure this study would have opposite results in France, as it is very easy to look at what the alumni of my school go to become.
This is not very persuasive. One could run the same line of argument about American (or Chinese, or British, etc.) universities, since in the U.S., like France and most other places, it remains the case that college graduates earn much more than their peers without college education, and even more so (sometimes dramatically) at elite universities.
But apparently this just doesn't necessarily translate into success at Ernst & Young.
[+] [-] parennoob|10 years ago|reply
What is it about French Universities that makes them so exceptional? I ask because I've heard this "I come from a French University, and it is reaaaally good" refrain from a lot of French people – but I haven't seen that many exceptional performance amongst them. [I should say though, I have met some really great and hard-working French university graduates, so the overall level is definitely quite good.]
[+] [-] learnstats2|10 years ago|reply
Who can easily get onto degree courses (but may not be successful there), and then easily be coached through online tests? One type of person: rich people with connections.
[+] [-] jakozaur|10 years ago|reply
1. Lack of degree will not be a filter, but you need to be genius if you don't have it.
2. Lack of degree is a setback, but still can get through.
3. Just consider skills, interview/internship performance.
[+] [-] tormeh|10 years ago|reply
(Everything I've ever heard about these consultancies suggest they are very bad places to work, if anyone's tempted)
[+] [-] bluedino|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rcurry|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gmac|10 years ago|reply
Her experience is that, if anything, it's actually damaging for accessibility, because in practice the candidates who have the confidence (and possibly outside help) to do well are pretty well exclusively the ones with traditional backgrounds, a sense of entitlement, and high grades from good institutions.
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] markbnj|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kinnard|10 years ago|reply
We need a ban the box campaign for academic credentials so that applicants are judged on their skill and merit and not on too often flimsy credentials.
[+] [-] fareesh|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] McP|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eruditely|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jamessb|10 years ago|reply
HN headline: "Ernst and Young Drops Degree Requirement for Recruitment"
THE headline: "Ernst and Young drops degree classification threshold for graduate recruitment"
The meaning is very different: the first suggests you no longer need to have a degree at all; the second merely suggests you no longer need to have done well in your degree.
Also worth noting is that Ernst and Young already had a 'EY School Leaver Programme' (5 year training programme for people direct from school).
[+] [-] NDizzle|10 years ago|reply
I have an Arkansas high school education. I came to work there through an acquisition.
[+] [-] rcurry|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] McP|10 years ago|reply
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