There are also middle grounds you can take. I, and other people in my area, live on homesteads, doing our organic / permaculture farming thing, growing our own food, expanding our solar arrays... while also having a good internet connection and a grid-tie so we can do our coding day jobs for part of the day, pay our bills, then shut down and spend the rest of our time in a more disconnected state. I wish I could disconnect more, but I'm not quite there yet.
What is important is to recognize that choices exist. You do not need to work long hours on the office campus of a tech company who feeds you 2 meals a day and expects your life to be dedicated to your "work". You also do not need to live in a VW bus with a laptop on a solar panel. There is a spectrum of choices, with different people finding their ideal life at different points.
As in many things in life, making a conscious choice to follow your own path is best.
My fiance and I left Chicago (and $1700/mo) in July for this kind of middle ground. I cross-referenced national fiber optic rollout with low population/rural areas and we found a few acres with 1gbps FTTH in the Lake of the Ozarks area. Our place came with an existing 2 bedroom home with existing private well and electric, all-in we bought for under 2 years worth of Chicago rent.
Our home is/was a bit of a fixer-upper, and it's harder to get help with labor here (it exists, but it's expensive). But one thing I've noticed is that learning plumbing/construction/mechanics has been way easier than learning software. You definitely sweat more though.
Turn-key housing here exists too, it just comes at more of a premium. Also, your social life is obviously impacted. You're probably well-advised to already have a family or s/o (or just are comfortable being alone).
All told, I think this is a great option if you're feeling trapped in your career but have stockpiled some cash. It probably doesn't require near as much money as you might think to make the jump.
For us it's exactly what we needed to focus on our startups without going the traditional VC route. We'd love to see more people going this route. Let me know if I can help.
Do you have any more info on this type of existence or communities which have this?
As a vegan, programmer, and someone very interested in leaving in nature and off the grid this sound like a sort of unicorn heavenly existence that only existed in 21st century fairy tales.
Do you have kids? I would love to move out to the country but I'm really worried about impacting my kids ability to develop skills and build a business/social network.
My parents moved out to a very small town from Toronto, Ontario when I was small. There was nothing for me there when I grew up, and all of the friends I had that stayed in the area are struggling. I went away to school and never really returned. I found that I was at a real disadvantage by having zero network and no relevant job skills pre-university. I've since made up for it and am doing quite well now, but I have 2 kids and them going to a good school is very important to me. I always wonder how people do it well, so I'm looking for information.
I've lived in a VW Westy for about 5 years, and think about building a yurt or micro-house.
Folks should be free to use their imaginations and what's around them to make their own practical way. It doesn't have to be expensive, conventional or a work of art to be your own.
Don't underestimate how much effort and devotion to the lifestyle it takes. Most of us just want a "turnkey" lifestyle, buying whatever on a whim and expecting it to just work (plug-in gadgets, packaged foods), with even our "staples" coming in such perfect condition (box of nails from Home Depot, beautiful fruits at Whole Foods, etc.). To the contrary, off-the-grid requires devotion to the act of surviving from basics, and integrating technology therein takes additional effort/patience/tolerance. It can certainly be internalized to the point of being "normal" and "comfortable", but still requires that focus - not sleeping in, driving to work, then grabbing a frozen pizza on the way home 'cuz you didn't have time to maintain the garden.
I rant on this because of a taste this weekend, trying with mixed-to-poor results to get my BioLite Camp Stove (otherwise highly recommended) burning a good fire suitable for charging electronics via its built-in thermocouple generator (using the compact solar panels was pointless given cloud cover), and even now a separate solar self-charging battery is sitting on top of my car recouping from the draining usage on the trip (oops, left something on).
I grew up in a semi-self-sufficient family, growing food and heating with wood et al. Seemed easyish then, but in retrospect my folks put a LOT of work into making it work smoothly. Going completely off-grid and still staying connected does seem a desirable state (a la "first world amusement" and "TEOTWAKI prepared"), but yikes it's a lot of work - moreso if your immediate companions aren't wholly devoted as well.
> It can certainly be internalized to the point of being "normal" and "comfortable", but still requires that focus
I would argue that there's a feedback loop in this particular case between the requirement of such effort, and the ability to generate it. The same sort of flow-state you get from e.g. playing Minecraft, also exists in the real-world equivalent of survivalist bootstrapping. Our brains were evolved to be stimulated by the survival tasks of our ancestral environments: moreso foraging and hunting than farming, but even farming still comes with very natural-to-us acts like crafting tools, clearing land, building shelter, herding animals, etc.
I think a lot of the dissonance between the modern values of convenience and efficiency/laziness, and the agricultural-era idea of a "work ethic", was simply that certain kinds of things that are "a LOT of work" just feel natural to humans, in ways where they're still work (and drudgery, at that, sometimes), but not nearly as draining to one's long-term motivation as modern "abstract" work is. Nobody ever got suffered from "burn-out" making nails to build their own house—which is amazing when you think about the level of toil involved. The sheer direct intuitiveness of the goal being pursued—make exactly enough nails to get a roof over one's head and keep out the cold—overrides a lot of the the feeling of repetitiveness of the base-level action.
(A dystopia belonging in an SMBC comic: a nail factory that used to be staffed with robots, but which is now staffed with humans wearing VR goggles having the times of their lives making nails because they believe they're doing it for direct survival reasons. Then the nails are used to build the crappy box-like apartments they pay for with their wages and go home to.)
I looked at that same stove and decided it's not worth the effort -- they claim 2W sustained power, which is a bit less than a standard 500mA USB computer port can provide. At that rate, it would take hours to charge a phone, and I don't want to tend a fire for hours.
So instead I bring along a 5000MaH battery pack (weight is around 5 ounces), and a 15W folding solar panel that generates enough power to charge even on overcast days (though certainly much less than 15W). (the solar panel is not light, it's around 1.5lbs)
>To the contrary, off-the-grid requires devotion to the act of surviving from basics, and integrating technology therein takes additional effort/patience/tolerance.
This kind of off-the-grid described in the article isn't far from standard everyday life amenities 4-6 decades ago...
> I rant on this because of a taste this weekend, trying with mixed-to-poor results to get my BioLite Camp Stove (otherwise highly recommended) burning a good fire suitable for charging electronics via its built-in thermocouple generator (using the compact solar panels was pointless given cloud cover), and even now a separate solar self-charging battery is sitting on top of my car recouping from the draining usage on the trip (oops, left something on).
Yeah, this is the problem with trying to adopt new technologies. I like the idea of BioLite (and I have one) but it's just not a mature enough tech to support a lifestyle. I met the BioLite guys and they seem pretty proficient at using it to power their devices and cook, but I haven't been able to make it work with my routine.
For when I'm traveling via automobile, I've got a Honda 2000i Inverter Generator and a portable propane grill which do all of what the BioLite does and more. They're larger and less environmentally friendly, but they always work easily, and that's important.
When I'm hiking I use a JetBoil and having my phone in airplane mode most of the time usually gets me from outlet to outlet without problems.
It's not just about effort, but time as well. "Turnkey" convenience gives you time to spend on other things. For example, the more time I spend surviving on the basics, the less time I can invest in the charity I volunteer with.
(Disclaimer: Slightly off-topic. Also, it's not my intention to belittle their lifestyle. I hope I don't come across that way.)
Some of the things they need even in this disconnected lifestyle - like the mobile home, laptops, books, solar panels, batteries and even the slippers have to be made by someone doing a 9-5 job somewhere. The idea of civilization to me is to take advantage of these specialists who are really good at doing or manufacturing some of the things I need and in turn I become a specialist in something (probably one thing) which I contribute back to the society - it's a barter. That I don't have to do all the things I need to do to survive, seems efficient and effective. Also, not all of the jobs are going to be able to afford this "luxury".
Right on. When considering lifestyle choices I ask myself how many people could live the same way. If it turns out to be a small minority before collapse, I reject it as a path for myself. To me off grid lifestyle seems a retreat from the goods of society without a commensurate benefit to self and others. As an art movement or experiment I say fine.
There is definitely an irony to people who make a show of disconnecting, but do so on the largess of society. In this piece, the guy who gets free electricity and shelter from his friend's shed. Or what I used to run into frequently, the rebel wanderer who eschews The System and couch surfs at the houses of his office worker friends.
I don't mind people who want to disconnect, but when you've got a campstove, a phone, a laptop, photovoltaic panels, a car... you're still enjoying the fruits of progress & society with the rest of us.
I had already bookmarked this post because I love the idea. But your response is incredibly thought provoking.
I love the idea of moving to Alaska or Canada in the wilderness, and figuring out how to survive and stay connected.
I'm thinking on the fly, but I think I would be contributing to society. My specialty is web programming and software architecture. I'd even go so far as to call it an art form.
I encounter a problem. Sleep on it for a few days, then bam, things settle into place and I spend a couple days solid programming. Those days that I'm "sleeping on it" if I'm at work, I'm often distracted by day-to-day tasks that usually could have been handled by someone else.
I'm not sold on the concept one way or the other. I do like the idea of a middle-ground solution.
I really appreciate your counter-argument. Good to think about at least.
You can live disconnected, while still participating occasionally in the labor market.
Lifetime jobs at a single employer died in roughly my grandpa's generation. And I'm not that young. My father went into semi-retirement in the 90s and he RVed roughly all summer and due to lack of connectivity technology at that time, he only contracted in the winter unless it was an emergency (charged higher rate!). RV life is a lot simpler with a house and mailing address. I spent a lot of time in the 90s and 00s picking up my parent's mail and generally keeping an eye on their house, which wasn't so bad because they lived kinda between my house and my work at that time, once I had kids it was more of a hassle but I still made the time. I remember how creepy it was watching 9/11 coverage on their big TV when they were in some campground a thousand miles away, wondering if this is "the big one" and should they be packing up to come here or should I be packing up to join them?! Also when you get too old/sick you just move back into the house permanently, or take shorter RV trips anyway.
Anyway, in summary, a home base strategy with "far less than full time employment" works pretty well, and if you're going to have "far less than full time employment" you need to do something with your spare time between work, and some folks like to travel and camp in their extensive spare time. So you end up with people disconnected and wandering the earth, most of the time, yet occasionally slaving away 9-5. For my dad it was voluntary in a semi-retired state of being, but mere education and talent do not guarantee employment for anyone, so I'm sure for some its involuntary. I suspect most of humanity in the history of our species never had a job, or never had a 9-5 job, they had a life instead.
My grandfather never completely stopped working into his 80s... I don't have any elderly role model to show me how to retire and do nothing. Personally when I retire I'm going back for the chemistry degree I always wanted and who cares if there's no jobs... after all, I'm already retired!
If anyone is interested in this way of life, I suggest moving North. It's extremely beautiful and there are way less people.
I moved to the Yukon 4 years ago, and a massive number of people live in this way. I.e. work less, own less, have way more time and live how you want. Hunt, fish, grow your own food, chop your own wood, and you can live a great life only working 20-50% time.
Also there are hardly any rules up here, and they're very weakly enforced, so you can more or less do whatever you want and "the world" will leave you alone about it.
If you go to Alaska, stay out of the big cities. They're just the same as the ones down south, but with more drugs. The small communities have all the cool people.
I've held an 8-4 developer job the last 3 years and hit up 36 different states. Right now I'm chilling at a most peaceful National Forest Campground in eastern Kentucky.
Joey Hess is a developer in rural Tennessee with similar problems that we city folk don't have to think of (running everything off a 12V DC battery, collecting your own water). http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/notes_for_a_caretaker/ is a good place to start for some of the things that need to be taken care of.
Came in to this post thinking of Joey as well. I use multiple utilities he's written. All on a small laptop and solar power. I don't know how much has changed since '12, but there is a nice summary of his infrastructure here: https://usesthis.com/interviews/joey.hess/
We had this discussion the last time "off-grid" came up.
Some take it's meaning more literally, with grid meaning pipes or wires delivering services to your home.
So gas being piped into your generator would be on-grid, if it gets trucked in then that's off-grid. Electricity via wires is on-grid, electricity via a factory built solar cell or windmill is off-grid.
Others have a more poetic definition of "off-grid" as "self-sufficency" though it's hard to see where that ends, as there's no clear dividing line, even a child born in a remote rainforest tribe with no contact with the world will end up using tools and techniques passed on by local culture.
They get the economic death penalty and the resulting homeless shelter isn't as cool looking as a 40 foot houseboat or a RV, so they're not covered in the story.
Oh hey, my wife and I just started doing this kind of thing.
We bought a 2002 23-foot RV for $15k and renovated it to nicer furnishings than our $1.2k/month apartment near Dallas where she was working.
Now we live in it full time! We're only a month in, but it's been a blast, and something I can see doing for the foreseeable future. Every new city we visit we can explore at our own pace, while spending less than we would be living back home, and living in much more beautiful areas (I'm writing from an RV park near Lake Placid a five minute walk from the coolest waterfall I've ever seen).
When you can work remotely, there's not a lot of reasons to stay in one place.
For remote workers within the United States, this is one of the best ways to perform currency arbitrage. Work for company in high cost area, live in low cost area. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, go work remotely from Mexico for a couple months. I put away a few grand in savings while living extremely well and meeting amazing people while working remotely in Mexico for a company in Chicago.
I have been sleeping in a tent for over three years. I go to a library to plug in. I don't have cooking capacity and I get hot meals from eateries. I self identify as homeless and I am fairly poor, but it was a choice. I walked away from a corporate job that was helping to keep me sick. This lifestyle is helping me get well.
There is no heat or electricity in my humble abode. We adjust amount of bedding and other details, depending on weather.
It has been an interesting experience. I want a house again, but I can imagine it being something small and simple with few amenities compared to most conventional housing.
I am still trying to work out those details. But very much enjoyed this article and posted a link to it on my homeless blog.
The comments here are really thought provoking. I feel like I'm missing something - is there some kind of unmentioned catch, like don't get sick, or you have to have really good workers/health/disability insurance - to make this work safely long term?
I love the contrarian thinking but want to make sure I'm accounting for legitimate cases my young mind might not conceive of. Or am I overthinking it?
Speaking from experience, the catch is you won't get to live the life of convenience and luxury that marketing has been pushing down your throat for the last 20+ years.
When you work less, you have less money, which means you spend less money, which means you often do things for yourself. Oil changes can be dirty, chopping wood can be hard work, and canning vegetables is a loooong process.
If you are afraid of hard work and want life to be "easy", by all means keep going to work and simply pay for everything. On the other hand, hard work is extremely rewarding, especially when it's for your own survival.
It's a choice, you're free to make it either way you want. I wish more people knew it was a choice they can make.
If you understand "off the grid" to mean "off the electricity grid", I love this project of a guy who salvaged the battery out of a Tesla and uses it together with a 45kW solar panel system to live independently of the grid:
This might have been a good article had it not been for the pretentious, holier-than-thou introduction. Apparently enjoying the fruits of a modern life make you a mindless drone compared to the "contemporary fine artist" who lives on a boat or someone living in a forest re-inventing the wheel for every modern necessity.
I didn't perceive it as pretentious. In my opinion the problem is not enjoying the fruits of modern life, but letting others define for you what has or hasn't value, and living a life where the only goal is being perceived by others as "successful".
Its worse when you see someone preaching marxism like these hollywood actors and big bankers praising cuba, the che guevara and what not, yet fully enjoying the luxuries of capitalism.
I live on a few acres about 15 miles outside a small town in rural New Mexico. The closest big cities are 3 hours away and those cities aren't actually very big. We (SO and I) grow a nice garden and have a well, but go into town for work. Initially I had intended to work from home but it became entirely too isolated. When I caught myself going outside to have a conversation with the chickens I realized it was time for a change, and I wound up leasing an office.
There is much positive about living simply and remotely.
Now the negative: You might want to go to a decent restaurant at some point. Also, intelligent conversation is a rarity. The folks you meet and deal with in rural settings often have stunted world views and not much ambition. That, in my experience, is the biggest problem with going (in this case only partially) "off-grid" in a remote area.
Every time I read about living off the grid, I think about Ted Carns. He's done incredible things in off-grid living. If you've never heard of him, check out this documentary:
Last month I visited Peru. One of the many things I saw there was the floating islands of Lake Titicaca; giant reed rafts that are essentially a houseboat community. It's a lifestyle on the intersection between genuine traditional existence, rural poverty, and roleplaying one's own history for tourist dollars.
One of the islanders let us see inside her house; a straw construction maybe 1m by 2m. And in the corner was a car battery powering a black and white CRT TV, powered by the solar panel on the roof.
(I could probably also talk about crofting in Scotland, a similar kind of remote lifestyle)
My wife and I quit our SF Bay Area jobs and traveled for a little over 2 years. We backpacked abroad, restored a VW Bus and drove it around the US, and explored the Bahamas on our sailboat.
One of my biggest takeaways from our trip - which I think is extremely relevant to the message here - is that my goal will never be to NOT work. Not ever - even in retirement. The consensus strategy of spending 40+ hours of every week of your life saving up so you can enjoy retirement is, to me, a broken model. We met so many people who followed that model only to realize they didn't have the health or energy to enjoy all that they had worked a lifetime for. It's heartbreaking.
Work is a GOOD thing. The preferred solution - and I realize this is a high bar that we're beyond fortunate to even consider(more on that at the end) - is to find something you're passionate about and you wake up every day wanting to do. Obviously that's the old cliche of just doing what you love, but it turns out I'm one of those dullards who has to learn some of the cliche life-pro-tips through experience to truly understand them.
I'm a solo founder on a business that's just entering private beta, so I know first-hand that there's an entirely different discussion about delayed gratification and working at an unsustainable pace in the short term to build something meaningful in the long term... and that gets complicated. There's no rule of thumb that I know of.
I could write a book about this discussion, but in sum: I LOVE codingdave's comment, because he used two words that my wife and I ALWAYS use when discussing this: "conscious" and "choices". These words came up in every discussion we had on our travels when the topic came up. The people we met out there didn't get there by accident. They get there because they made choices. They lived below their means. They saved. They learned new skills. They took leaps of faith. VERY few of them were wealthy.
When we talk about this, I usually start to say that everything in life is a choice; that we ALWAYS have choices, but the sad reality is that isn't true for most people. I won't turn this into a political discussion, but will simply say that it would be amazing to live in a world where even the poorest of the poor have palatable choices that they can realistically make. In our current world, those of us who ARE fortunate enough to have some palatable choices can work towards making that a reality. For those that would call that a pipe-dream, there are easily identifiable challenges like affordable childcare that are super-realistic and would go a long way in the right direction. There are amazing organizations already doing great work in that sphere.
My business is somewhat tied to this topic. It's mentioned in my comment history.
PS: A grandfathered unlimited 4g plan and a cradlepoint is GOLD on the road. :)
[+] [-] codingdave|10 years ago|reply
What is important is to recognize that choices exist. You do not need to work long hours on the office campus of a tech company who feeds you 2 meals a day and expects your life to be dedicated to your "work". You also do not need to live in a VW bus with a laptop on a solar panel. There is a spectrum of choices, with different people finding their ideal life at different points.
As in many things in life, making a conscious choice to follow your own path is best.
[+] [-] rboyd|10 years ago|reply
Our home is/was a bit of a fixer-upper, and it's harder to get help with labor here (it exists, but it's expensive). But one thing I've noticed is that learning plumbing/construction/mechanics has been way easier than learning software. You definitely sweat more though.
Turn-key housing here exists too, it just comes at more of a premium. Also, your social life is obviously impacted. You're probably well-advised to already have a family or s/o (or just are comfortable being alone).
All told, I think this is a great option if you're feeling trapped in your career but have stockpiled some cash. It probably doesn't require near as much money as you might think to make the jump.
For us it's exactly what we needed to focus on our startups without going the traditional VC route. We'd love to see more people going this route. Let me know if I can help.
[+] [-] marricks|10 years ago|reply
As a vegan, programmer, and someone very interested in leaving in nature and off the grid this sound like a sort of unicorn heavenly existence that only existed in 21st century fairy tales.
[+] [-] zardo|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seestheday|10 years ago|reply
My parents moved out to a very small town from Toronto, Ontario when I was small. There was nothing for me there when I grew up, and all of the friends I had that stayed in the area are struggling. I went away to school and never really returned. I found that I was at a real disadvantage by having zero network and no relevant job skills pre-university. I've since made up for it and am doing quite well now, but I have 2 kids and them going to a good school is very important to me. I always wonder how people do it well, so I'm looking for information.
[+] [-] bro-stick|10 years ago|reply
Folks should be free to use their imaginations and what's around them to make their own practical way. It doesn't have to be expensive, conventional or a work of art to be your own.
Check these out:
Castle on Wheels https://youtu.be/CnHGKUh-5O4
Floating, movable island http://dornob.com/recycled-paradise-amazing-man-made-floatin...
[+] [-] tcdent|10 years ago|reply
I'm in the early stages of my transition; the mentality is solidly there, still working on infrastructure and tools, and money.
[+] [-] tedks|10 years ago|reply
If you've made a conscious choice to follow your own path, why is the path you've found so similar to others?
It's hilarious when non-conformists end up conforming even more.
[+] [-] ctdonath|10 years ago|reply
I rant on this because of a taste this weekend, trying with mixed-to-poor results to get my BioLite Camp Stove (otherwise highly recommended) burning a good fire suitable for charging electronics via its built-in thermocouple generator (using the compact solar panels was pointless given cloud cover), and even now a separate solar self-charging battery is sitting on top of my car recouping from the draining usage on the trip (oops, left something on).
I grew up in a semi-self-sufficient family, growing food and heating with wood et al. Seemed easyish then, but in retrospect my folks put a LOT of work into making it work smoothly. Going completely off-grid and still staying connected does seem a desirable state (a la "first world amusement" and "TEOTWAKI prepared"), but yikes it's a lot of work - moreso if your immediate companions aren't wholly devoted as well.
[+] [-] derefr|10 years ago|reply
I would argue that there's a feedback loop in this particular case between the requirement of such effort, and the ability to generate it. The same sort of flow-state you get from e.g. playing Minecraft, also exists in the real-world equivalent of survivalist bootstrapping. Our brains were evolved to be stimulated by the survival tasks of our ancestral environments: moreso foraging and hunting than farming, but even farming still comes with very natural-to-us acts like crafting tools, clearing land, building shelter, herding animals, etc.
I think a lot of the dissonance between the modern values of convenience and efficiency/laziness, and the agricultural-era idea of a "work ethic", was simply that certain kinds of things that are "a LOT of work" just feel natural to humans, in ways where they're still work (and drudgery, at that, sometimes), but not nearly as draining to one's long-term motivation as modern "abstract" work is. Nobody ever got suffered from "burn-out" making nails to build their own house—which is amazing when you think about the level of toil involved. The sheer direct intuitiveness of the goal being pursued—make exactly enough nails to get a roof over one's head and keep out the cold—overrides a lot of the the feeling of repetitiveness of the base-level action.
(A dystopia belonging in an SMBC comic: a nail factory that used to be staffed with robots, but which is now staffed with humans wearing VR goggles having the times of their lives making nails because they believe they're doing it for direct survival reasons. Then the nails are used to build the crappy box-like apartments they pay for with their wages and go home to.)
[+] [-] Johnny555|10 years ago|reply
So instead I bring along a 5000MaH battery pack (weight is around 5 ounces), and a 15W folding solar panel that generates enough power to charge even on overcast days (though certainly much less than 15W). (the solar panel is not light, it's around 1.5lbs)
[+] [-] coldtea|10 years ago|reply
This kind of off-the-grid described in the article isn't far from standard everyday life amenities 4-6 decades ago...
[+] [-] copsarebastards|10 years ago|reply
Yeah, this is the problem with trying to adopt new technologies. I like the idea of BioLite (and I have one) but it's just not a mature enough tech to support a lifestyle. I met the BioLite guys and they seem pretty proficient at using it to power their devices and cook, but I haven't been able to make it work with my routine.
For when I'm traveling via automobile, I've got a Honda 2000i Inverter Generator and a portable propane grill which do all of what the BioLite does and more. They're larger and less environmentally friendly, but they always work easily, and that's important.
When I'm hiking I use a JetBoil and having my phone in airplane mode most of the time usually gets me from outlet to outlet without problems.
[+] [-] sliverstorm|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ecobiker|10 years ago|reply
Some of the things they need even in this disconnected lifestyle - like the mobile home, laptops, books, solar panels, batteries and even the slippers have to be made by someone doing a 9-5 job somewhere. The idea of civilization to me is to take advantage of these specialists who are really good at doing or manufacturing some of the things I need and in turn I become a specialist in something (probably one thing) which I contribute back to the society - it's a barter. That I don't have to do all the things I need to do to survive, seems efficient and effective. Also, not all of the jobs are going to be able to afford this "luxury".
[+] [-] OneOneOneOne|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sliverstorm|10 years ago|reply
I don't mind people who want to disconnect, but when you've got a campstove, a phone, a laptop, photovoltaic panels, a car... you're still enjoying the fruits of progress & society with the rest of us.
[+] [-] pointytrees|10 years ago|reply
I love the idea of moving to Alaska or Canada in the wilderness, and figuring out how to survive and stay connected.
I'm thinking on the fly, but I think I would be contributing to society. My specialty is web programming and software architecture. I'd even go so far as to call it an art form.
I encounter a problem. Sleep on it for a few days, then bam, things settle into place and I spend a couple days solid programming. Those days that I'm "sleeping on it" if I'm at work, I'm often distracted by day-to-day tasks that usually could have been handled by someone else.
I'm not sold on the concept one way or the other. I do like the idea of a middle-ground solution.
I really appreciate your counter-argument. Good to think about at least.
[+] [-] xaver|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grecy|10 years ago|reply
Capitalism says that if a person wants to work 100+ hours a week and drive a Porsche, they can.
If another person only wants to work 10 hours a week and walk everywhere, they can.
Simply because Porsche sell $200K+ cars, does not mean I'm obligated to work enough to pay for that.
>have to be made by someone doing a 9-5 job somewhere
Actually, the person making those things could also have chosen to live a simpler life and only be working part time. It's their choice.
[+] [-] VLM|10 years ago|reply
Lifetime jobs at a single employer died in roughly my grandpa's generation. And I'm not that young. My father went into semi-retirement in the 90s and he RVed roughly all summer and due to lack of connectivity technology at that time, he only contracted in the winter unless it was an emergency (charged higher rate!). RV life is a lot simpler with a house and mailing address. I spent a lot of time in the 90s and 00s picking up my parent's mail and generally keeping an eye on their house, which wasn't so bad because they lived kinda between my house and my work at that time, once I had kids it was more of a hassle but I still made the time. I remember how creepy it was watching 9/11 coverage on their big TV when they were in some campground a thousand miles away, wondering if this is "the big one" and should they be packing up to come here or should I be packing up to join them?! Also when you get too old/sick you just move back into the house permanently, or take shorter RV trips anyway.
Anyway, in summary, a home base strategy with "far less than full time employment" works pretty well, and if you're going to have "far less than full time employment" you need to do something with your spare time between work, and some folks like to travel and camp in their extensive spare time. So you end up with people disconnected and wandering the earth, most of the time, yet occasionally slaving away 9-5. For my dad it was voluntary in a semi-retired state of being, but mere education and talent do not guarantee employment for anyone, so I'm sure for some its involuntary. I suspect most of humanity in the history of our species never had a job, or never had a 9-5 job, they had a life instead.
My grandfather never completely stopped working into his 80s... I don't have any elderly role model to show me how to retire and do nothing. Personally when I retire I'm going back for the chemistry degree I always wanted and who cares if there's no jobs... after all, I'm already retired!
[+] [-] grecy|10 years ago|reply
I moved to the Yukon 4 years ago, and a massive number of people live in this way. I.e. work less, own less, have way more time and live how you want. Hunt, fish, grow your own food, chop your own wood, and you can live a great life only working 20-50% time.
Also there are hardly any rules up here, and they're very weakly enforced, so you can more or less do whatever you want and "the world" will leave you alone about it.
If you go to Alaska, stay out of the big cities. They're just the same as the ones down south, but with more drugs. The small communities have all the cool people.
Photos and stories from my Yukon/Alaska adventures are at http://theroadchoseme.com
[+] [-] timmaah|10 years ago|reply
http://www.watsonswander.com/assets/2015/10/IMG_6288.jpg
[+] [-] comrh|10 years ago|reply
So many questions, I always thought this was an interesting avenue to take when considering "working remotely".
[+] [-] s73v3r|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] koenigdavidmj|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Adaptive|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lumberjack|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ZeroGravitas|10 years ago|reply
Some take it's meaning more literally, with grid meaning pipes or wires delivering services to your home.
So gas being piped into your generator would be on-grid, if it gets trucked in then that's off-grid. Electricity via wires is on-grid, electricity via a factory built solar cell or windmill is off-grid.
Others have a more poetic definition of "off-grid" as "self-sufficency" though it's hard to see where that ends, as there's no clear dividing line, even a child born in a remote rainforest tribe with no contact with the world will end up using tools and techniques passed on by local culture.
[+] [-] slaman|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChuckMcM|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] VLM|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dualogy|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] christiangenco|10 years ago|reply
We bought a 2002 23-foot RV for $15k and renovated it to nicer furnishings than our $1.2k/month apartment near Dallas where she was working.
Now we live in it full time! We're only a month in, but it's been a blast, and something I can see doing for the foreseeable future. Every new city we visit we can explore at our own pace, while spending less than we would be living back home, and living in much more beautiful areas (I'm writing from an RV park near Lake Placid a five minute walk from the coolest waterfall I've ever seen).
When you can work remotely, there's not a lot of reasons to stay in one place.
My wife blogs about it at http://gogo.gen.co
[+] [-] bproctor|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xacaxulu|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mz|10 years ago|reply
There is no heat or electricity in my humble abode. We adjust amount of bedding and other details, depending on weather.
It has been an interesting experience. I want a house again, but I can imagine it being something small and simple with few amenities compared to most conventional housing.
I am still trying to work out those details. But very much enjoyed this article and posted a link to it on my homeless blog.
[+] [-] talsraviv|10 years ago|reply
I love the contrarian thinking but want to make sure I'm accounting for legitimate cases my young mind might not conceive of. Or am I overthinking it?
[+] [-] grecy|10 years ago|reply
Speaking from experience, the catch is you won't get to live the life of convenience and luxury that marketing has been pushing down your throat for the last 20+ years.
When you work less, you have less money, which means you spend less money, which means you often do things for yourself. Oil changes can be dirty, chopping wood can be hard work, and canning vegetables is a loooong process.
If you are afraid of hard work and want life to be "easy", by all means keep going to work and simply pay for everything. On the other hand, hard work is extremely rewarding, especially when it's for your own survival.
It's a choice, you're free to make it either way you want. I wish more people knew it was a choice they can make.
[+] [-] revelation|10 years ago|reply
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7...
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7...
http://skie.net/uploads/landscaping-in-progress.jpg
Theres a 100+ page thread on the project here:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34531-Plan-Off...
[+] [-] rza|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neurohax|10 years ago|reply
Its worse when you see someone preaching marxism like these hollywood actors and big bankers praising cuba, the che guevara and what not, yet fully enjoying the luxuries of capitalism.
[+] [-] jqm|10 years ago|reply
There is much positive about living simply and remotely.
Now the negative: You might want to go to a decent restaurant at some point. Also, intelligent conversation is a rarity. The folks you meet and deal with in rural settings often have stunted world views and not much ambition. That, in my experience, is the biggest problem with going (in this case only partially) "off-grid" in a remote area.
[+] [-] maresca|10 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUxmikfS2LI
[+] [-] pjc50|10 years ago|reply
One of the islanders let us see inside her house; a straw construction maybe 1m by 2m. And in the corner was a car battery powering a black and white CRT TV, powered by the solar panel on the roof.
(I could probably also talk about crofting in Scotland, a similar kind of remote lifestyle)
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] jonpaine|10 years ago|reply
One of my biggest takeaways from our trip - which I think is extremely relevant to the message here - is that my goal will never be to NOT work. Not ever - even in retirement. The consensus strategy of spending 40+ hours of every week of your life saving up so you can enjoy retirement is, to me, a broken model. We met so many people who followed that model only to realize they didn't have the health or energy to enjoy all that they had worked a lifetime for. It's heartbreaking.
Work is a GOOD thing. The preferred solution - and I realize this is a high bar that we're beyond fortunate to even consider(more on that at the end) - is to find something you're passionate about and you wake up every day wanting to do. Obviously that's the old cliche of just doing what you love, but it turns out I'm one of those dullards who has to learn some of the cliche life-pro-tips through experience to truly understand them.
I'm a solo founder on a business that's just entering private beta, so I know first-hand that there's an entirely different discussion about delayed gratification and working at an unsustainable pace in the short term to build something meaningful in the long term... and that gets complicated. There's no rule of thumb that I know of.
I could write a book about this discussion, but in sum: I LOVE codingdave's comment, because he used two words that my wife and I ALWAYS use when discussing this: "conscious" and "choices". These words came up in every discussion we had on our travels when the topic came up. The people we met out there didn't get there by accident. They get there because they made choices. They lived below their means. They saved. They learned new skills. They took leaps of faith. VERY few of them were wealthy.
When we talk about this, I usually start to say that everything in life is a choice; that we ALWAYS have choices, but the sad reality is that isn't true for most people. I won't turn this into a political discussion, but will simply say that it would be amazing to live in a world where even the poorest of the poor have palatable choices that they can realistically make. In our current world, those of us who ARE fortunate enough to have some palatable choices can work towards making that a reality. For those that would call that a pipe-dream, there are easily identifiable challenges like affordable childcare that are super-realistic and would go a long way in the right direction. There are amazing organizations already doing great work in that sphere.
My business is somewhat tied to this topic. It's mentioned in my comment history.
PS: A grandfathered unlimited 4g plan and a cradlepoint is GOLD on the road. :)
[+] [-] welder|10 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P73REgj-3UE