It is very interesting that the State Department is playing second fiddle to Google here. Intuitively I feel this has pretty far reaching consequences.
- Apparently Google has uncovered a chinese attempt to infiltrate a number of American companies[1]. The fact that this is being uncovered by Google and not the government is very interesting. And potentially very embarrasing for the state.
- America hasn't engaged China in relation to human rights, probably due to global politics which tends to tie you up in consensus, conventions and diplomacy. Google has done so in a very clear and public way.
- The state department is taking Googles lead. Hilary Clinton is playing catch-up. She even says so in the statement: "We have been briefed by Google"
This indicates an enormous shift in power.
[1] - The American government might have been aware of this or even uncovered it themselves, which I personally doubt.
The State Dept. isn't playing second fiddle. They simply can NOT come out as publicly as Google did, for many reasons. As the "official" foreign voice of the US Govt there are serious repercussions to coming right out and accusing China. Secondly, they would not tip their hand on any intelligence they received, or were actively receiving, on Chinese infiltrations in cyberspace.
While our Gov't isn't very good at some things, I can guarantee that they were aware of what was going on. There have been many well-publicized instances over the past 10 years where the Govt' has uncovered intrusions into commercial companies.
What I've found most interesting in this news article is the oddly strong role that Google is playing in global politics. Corporations taking a strong line negotiating with nation-states.
This is pure speculation, but if the US government is willing to engage China on the back of what Google reported, China must have done something which threatens to weaken the US economy more than worsening their relationship with the Chinese government would.
It is no secret that the US and Chinese economies have a highly symbiotic relationship and are heavily dependent on each other - Americans buy the most Chinese production out of anyone else, while China is the main creditor of the US (just to name two examples).
If the US is willing to make the tradeoff I mentioned before, it should illustrate the gravity of what the Chinese government has done. That seems like a pretty scary scenario to me.
My guess is that the US government will not do anything big to seriously engage China on civil rights. I'm not even sure if I should hope they do or not. Again, this is only speculation, but fascinating.
The thing is, it's not embarrassing for the US government. I would guess they were told about the announcement way before it happened.
The thing is, Google can make this accusation and be above suspicion. If the US government made tis accusation, it would turn into a PR fight and no one would know who to believe.
>The fact that this is being uncovered by Google and not the government is very interesting.
If I understand correctly, google find out because they were companies using the google enterprise framework. Google was their IT dept. It doesn't surprise me they uncovered it first.
"This whole situation definitely feels like the start of something much larger than just Google pulling out of China."
The assumption in government (and of security researchers) right now is that every time you send an email, it gets read by 25 or so countries. However, they haven't bothered to tell the general public this yet. My guess is that they are going to use this incident to either start to break this news to the general public, or else push through additional computer security measures. Possibly both.
I'd call it the opening salvo in a trade war, if not a new cold war. Expect to see a lot of political pressure for other companies to 'follow Google' and repatriate manufacturing operations and the like.
The thing that will ultimately undermine the chokehold put by repressive regimes on their oppressed citizens will not be Google as a company nor the U.S. government as a countervailing political force nor the U.N. as a supervening agency nor human rights advocates as a principled opposition - though all these forces are helpful and necessary, they are not in themselves sufficient.
It will instead be the sheer wearing force of progressive technological advances that make it harder and harder with each passing day for such regimes ultimately to suppress the free flow of information and the spur toward freedom promoted thereby.
With its dramatic action, Google has demonstrated that any given company wielding sufficient power relating to the free flow of information has the capacity to make a big difference in moving to help liberate countries such as China. That company has to show some guts, which Google has done. And it needs to have some core principles, which is really at the heart of being able to act with courage and conviction as Google has done. But none of this would be enough, even if it is backed vocally or sub silentio by the force of the U.S. government, the U.N., and rights advocates. Repressive regimes like China's have gone for decades on their oppressive path in spite of vigorous opposition from the west (remember the long stretch when the U.S. would not even recognize the existence of the Chinese government) and have scarcely changed their worst policies over that time.
The change, then, ultimately has to come from within and it is there that the free flow of information makes all the difference. Knowledge is power, and that is precisely why oppressive regimes always seek to suppress free speech and to control thought through massive propaganda mechanisms.
It is the technological juggernaut that is progressively, albeit slowly, undermining the thought-control historically imposed by the Chinese government upon its citizens, and that government will be fighting a losing battle on this front as it becomes virtually impossible, in an exploding information age, ultimately to choke off the free flow of information so desperately needed by oppressed peoples.
In this sense, Google's action serves as a proxy for the technology forces that are having this salutary effect. But none of this happens in a vacuum. It takes real people to make real and difficult decisions to bring about the change. And it takes courage to stand up to authoritarian forces. Bravo to Google for taking a tremendous step in the right direction. I hope they stick with it to its logical outcome. It will not be easy.
"Google has demonstrated that any given company wielding sufficient power relating to the free flow of information has the capacity to make a big difference in moving to help liberate countries such as China"
How so? Has China moved yet, in reaction? It seems very unlikely to me that they would, and Google is not even the most popular search engine in China.
As for unstoppable technological progress, there are lots of examples of political regimes keeping their countries in the dark ages.
The State Department is being a bit hypocritical here. If China must give an explanation for its alleged cyberattacks/hacking attempts on gmail, then the U.S. government should also give an explanation for its NSA-sponsored eavesdropping/hacking/snooping of other countries' citizens' email, phone conversations, and other communications.
I should point out that the State Department does not wiretap Chinese citizens phones so that they know which little old lady to beat to death. That is China's job.
Returning you now to your regularly scheduled moral relativism.
Yes but righteous indignation is so much easier to muster. Honestly though, this is more about China's history of human rights violations than the hacking attempts themselves.
Interesting. I would have expected the government to respond with something completely bland along the lines of “Google is a private company that makes its own decisions about international operations... Our law-enforcement authorities, including FBI Counterintelligence, are always vigilant against computer crime, but we cannot comment on an ongoing investigation.”
ISTM that nationalist elements within China would love to paint Western businesses that they disapprove of as arms of the CIA, and that if the US is too vocal in support of Google, then they give fodder to those nationalists (and risk damaging US commercial interests in China). I assume that the State Department considered this factor and decided that nevertheless, they had to speak up for an open international Internet.
This is an old article but compares the actions against the Barbary Pirates (US Navy used force to ensure Free Trade) with what US could do with Internet 'piracy' - and no thats not copying CDs.
This feels like a dumb question, but my first reaction to this was wondering how the Secretary of State could be relevant to this or why she is going to make a statement? I don't see what role her words have here or how they could change anything. Can someone enlighten me?
It hasn't been a huge secret that the Chinese government conducts all sorts of electronic espionage, both for economic and military information and to identify dissidents so they can imprison or shoot them. What's new here is that a powerful entity is finally willing to call them out in public, and it's about time.
You are working for Google and you have evil motives. You have access to Gmail's data, search logs and Google Documents (among other things). With this information it's pretty damn easy to hack anyone that uses Google products - - as users and companies hold a lot of sensitive data in emails and Google documents - - especially on Google Apps.
This could have been done from Google offices in China, but why not in other countries?
We have been briefed by Google on these allegations
The pertinent question is "when?". Google reported the attacks began in mid-December. NYT reported at least some against the 34 other companies occurred last week. Drummond said the Chinese government had been briefed before yesterday's statement. I have trouble believing The State Department hasn't been involved until now.
Ironic given the attacks were via a 3rd party, proprietary, monopoly-market share, monoculture, bloated, insecure, not-very-good program for reading ISO standard files (Adobe Reader). Though Google said many of the attacks were via standard keyloggers.
Similar to the recent, "don't internet bank via Windows" warnings, it appears that anyone involved with human rights should shift follow the same advice for all their online correspondence. But that tech/security element seems to be lost because of the geopolitical drama.
[+] [-] mixmax|16 years ago|reply
- Apparently Google has uncovered a chinese attempt to infiltrate a number of American companies[1]. The fact that this is being uncovered by Google and not the government is very interesting. And potentially very embarrasing for the state.
- America hasn't engaged China in relation to human rights, probably due to global politics which tends to tie you up in consensus, conventions and diplomacy. Google has done so in a very clear and public way.
- The state department is taking Googles lead. Hilary Clinton is playing catch-up. She even says so in the statement: "We have been briefed by Google"
This indicates an enormous shift in power.
[1] - The American government might have been aware of this or even uncovered it themselves, which I personally doubt.
[+] [-] maukdaddy|16 years ago|reply
While our Gov't isn't very good at some things, I can guarantee that they were aware of what was going on. There have been many well-publicized instances over the past 10 years where the Govt' has uncovered intrusions into commercial companies.
[+] [-] notaddicted|16 years ago|reply
"Gossip from within google.cn is Shanghai office used as CN gov attack stage in US source code network." - wikileaks: http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689041346
(http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1049154)
i.e. (rumors) Google know who was attacked because it was done out of their own office
[+] [-] jauer|16 years ago|reply
Targeted attacks on specific diplomatic, economic, and infrastructure targets from China were, I thought, widely known of for the past few years.
China targeting Tibeten diplomatic traffic: www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-746.pdf
Northrop-Grumman report: http://www.uscc.gov/researchpapers/2009/NorthropGrumman_PRC_...
Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GhostNet MI5 reports China targeting UK government in 2007: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7123970.stm
[+] [-] jacoblyles|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joubert|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lyudmil|16 years ago|reply
It is no secret that the US and Chinese economies have a highly symbiotic relationship and are heavily dependent on each other - Americans buy the most Chinese production out of anyone else, while China is the main creditor of the US (just to name two examples).
If the US is willing to make the tradeoff I mentioned before, it should illustrate the gravity of what the Chinese government has done. That seems like a pretty scary scenario to me.
My guess is that the US government will not do anything big to seriously engage China on civil rights. I'm not even sure if I should hope they do or not. Again, this is only speculation, but fascinating.
[+] [-] jacquesm|16 years ago|reply
I wouldn't be so sure that the roles are as clearly defined as it seems at this moment.
[+] [-] andrewljohnson|16 years ago|reply
The thing is, Google can make this accusation and be above suspicion. If the US government made tis accusation, it would turn into a PR fight and no one would know who to believe.
[+] [-] crocowhile|16 years ago|reply
If I understand correctly, google find out because they were companies using the google enterprise framework. Google was their IT dept. It doesn't surprise me they uncovered it first.
[+] [-] yan|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Alex3917|16 years ago|reply
The assumption in government (and of security researchers) right now is that every time you send an email, it gets read by 25 or so countries. However, they haven't bothered to tell the general public this yet. My guess is that they are going to use this incident to either start to break this news to the general public, or else push through additional computer security measures. Possibly both.
[+] [-] anigbrowl|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Estragon|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrewvc|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|16 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] grellas|16 years ago|reply
It will instead be the sheer wearing force of progressive technological advances that make it harder and harder with each passing day for such regimes ultimately to suppress the free flow of information and the spur toward freedom promoted thereby.
With its dramatic action, Google has demonstrated that any given company wielding sufficient power relating to the free flow of information has the capacity to make a big difference in moving to help liberate countries such as China. That company has to show some guts, which Google has done. And it needs to have some core principles, which is really at the heart of being able to act with courage and conviction as Google has done. But none of this would be enough, even if it is backed vocally or sub silentio by the force of the U.S. government, the U.N., and rights advocates. Repressive regimes like China's have gone for decades on their oppressive path in spite of vigorous opposition from the west (remember the long stretch when the U.S. would not even recognize the existence of the Chinese government) and have scarcely changed their worst policies over that time.
The change, then, ultimately has to come from within and it is there that the free flow of information makes all the difference. Knowledge is power, and that is precisely why oppressive regimes always seek to suppress free speech and to control thought through massive propaganda mechanisms.
It is the technological juggernaut that is progressively, albeit slowly, undermining the thought-control historically imposed by the Chinese government upon its citizens, and that government will be fighting a losing battle on this front as it becomes virtually impossible, in an exploding information age, ultimately to choke off the free flow of information so desperately needed by oppressed peoples.
In this sense, Google's action serves as a proxy for the technology forces that are having this salutary effect. But none of this happens in a vacuum. It takes real people to make real and difficult decisions to bring about the change. And it takes courage to stand up to authoritarian forces. Bravo to Google for taking a tremendous step in the right direction. I hope they stick with it to its logical outcome. It will not be easy.
[+] [-] Tichy|16 years ago|reply
How so? Has China moved yet, in reaction? It seems very unlikely to me that they would, and Google is not even the most popular search engine in China.
As for unstoppable technological progress, there are lots of examples of political regimes keeping their countries in the dark ages.
[+] [-] jules|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ilamont|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] patio11|16 years ago|reply
Returning you now to your regularly scheduled moral relativism.
[+] [-] flatline|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Quarrelsome|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sethg|16 years ago|reply
ISTM that nationalist elements within China would love to paint Western businesses that they disapprove of as arms of the CIA, and that if the US is too vocal in support of Google, then they give fodder to those nationalists (and risk damaging US commercial interests in China). I assume that the State Department considered this factor and decided that nevertheless, they had to speak up for an open international Internet.
[+] [-] lifeisstillgood|16 years ago|reply
This is an old article but compares the actions against the Barbary Pirates (US Navy used force to ensure Free Trade) with what US could do with Internet 'piracy' - and no thats not copying CDs.
[+] [-] barmstrong|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pragmatic|16 years ago|reply
Wow, straight out of a William Gibson novel.
[+] [-] orangecat|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JulianMorrison|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] amix|16 years ago|reply
This could have been done from Google offices in China, but why not in other countries?
[+] [-] unknown|16 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] andreyf|16 years ago|reply
The pertinent question is "when?". Google reported the attacks began in mid-December. NYT reported at least some against the 34 other companies occurred last week. Drummond said the Chinese government had been briefed before yesterday's statement. I have trouble believing The State Department hasn't been involved until now.
[+] [-] tptacek|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ZeroGravitas|16 years ago|reply
Similar to the recent, "don't internet bank via Windows" warnings, it appears that anyone involved with human rights should shift follow the same advice for all their online correspondence. But that tech/security element seems to be lost because of the geopolitical drama.
[+] [-] unknown|16 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|16 years ago|reply
[deleted]