We need targeted surveillance and by that I mean something that many will vehemently disagree with. Before you down vote, please make the effort to read to the end and then down vote!
If I was a doctor and my patient had cancer in his foot, then if try to treat the foot to get rid of the cancer. I would also pay particularly close attention to the leg connected to that foot, to make sure that the cancer did not spread throughout the entire body.
With that in mind, I believe that our only choice, assuming we want our free and open societies to remain as they are, is to monitor all Muslims living in Europe who have the potential to be radicalised and turned cancerous. Warrant, judge, monitor.
We could try and close all the borders (they are porous) or we can make pointless suggestions, like we should kick all immigrants out of our countries, but the fact remains that the attackers in London and Paris earlier in the year (and I'm betting last night too) are second or third generation immigrants who were born in the west.
Since 9/11 the security services have tried to crack down on radicalization within the internal Muslim communities, by expelling radical clerics, but the internet allows the radicalization of the very young and marginalised youth (mostly boys), to continue. This isn't surprising considering the racism against immigrants in the ghettoes of Paris, and the exclusion of these youths from French society. First came the riots in 2005, and now something much more sinister has arrived.
Or societies are desperately trying not to impose draconian rules of monitoring on a religious group, but as it stands I see little choice in the matter.
Also Germany is facing a firestorm. Within the large numbers of genuine refugees, are Syrian fighters from both sides. Some are most likely disillusioned by the brutality of ISIS, and some are coming to watch the world burn. We desperately need to know who these people are and urgently before they disappear into the masses.
We also need to understand ISIS and what they are trying to do. Wikileaks recently published a document [1] that outlines their goals and they are simple. They want to achieve the Islamic State with pure Sharia Law. Moderate Muslims (aka "the greyzone") either have to join, or be burnt in the war with all other Kafir (that has been prophesied). They need the west to turn against their Muslim communities forcing them back to fighting and into the open arms of ISIS. They want those new immigrants in Germany to be excluded, treated like dogs, so that they either return to the middle east and (re)join the perverted form of Islam that is preached by IS.
Now you can see the dilemma that the west faces. On the one hand, logic dictates that they need to closely monitor the youths in Europe who are getting radicalised over the internet, but they can't single out a religious group without a severe backlash. The alternative is to monitor everyone on the internet, because in doing that you get to watch the small part that you are interested in, without appearing to religiously persecuting Muslims.
Finally, there is a twitter account [2] that follows radical militia fighters from Syria and the middle East. A large number of which are now posting photos of them in Europe now. We need to find them now.
[1] ISIS strategy in France: Provoke a crackdown on Muslims to "Eliminate the Grayzone" https://t.co/8fb8BbKOG2 #ParisAttacks #AttaquesParis
Hey HN, I'm maintaining this gist. Feel free to propose better translations in the gist comments or right here, some of it could definitely use some improvement.
If you have any other questions, I'll try to point you to reliable sources. Thanks for your interest in what happens to our country!
I know that all universities and research institutes are closed on Saturday.[1] Sucks if you have cells to maintain.
It would be awfully sad if people can't go out and drink and eat freely in one of the great European cities. If I was still in Paris I'd want to be having a good, relaxed time with my friends tonight.
[1]Bonjour,
Sur décision de la Mairie de Paris et du Rectorat, toutes les écoles et
établissements académiques seront fermés le samedi 14/11/15.
The curfew was put into place last night, the first time it has happened since 1944 apparently, but it was lifted again by this morning. It's still recommended to not go outside unless you have to, but not forbidden. (Very recently a car reportedly with four heavily armed people in it broke through a police barrier, driving towards Paris - nobody knows if directly connected yet..)
I've never seen a university closure that didn't still require certain essential employees, like those caring for animals (and presumably cells?), to work. Can someone confirm whether that is the case here?
Remember the goal of terrorism is to terrorize you. It's to get the maximum effect of very limited resources; right now 8 people have around a billion (or more) panicked. Wow.
If they are scaring you - especially into a state of conflict - they've won. There were only 8 of them. They can't really threaten you.
ISIS wants irreconcileable division and conflict between people who are Muslim and others. Are you giving it to them - and because of 8 people? The real conflict should be between peace-loving people and violent nutcases like ISIS - then our enemy is vastly outnumbered.
France's response should be to counter ISIS' goals, and heal divisions between people of different religions. Eliminate their ban on clothing worn by Muslims, accept more refugees; nothing would be more crushing to ISIS than people of all faiths living peacefully, happily side-by-side, as friends, neighbors, and families.
> nothing would be more crushing to ISIS than people of all faiths living peacefully, happily side-by-side, as friends, neighbors, and families.
People living in Syria and Iraq have their cities bombed by western armies. People in Lybia saw it earlier. Maybe they lost their friends or relatives in a war. Sorry but your naive words about peaceful living would sound like a bullshit to them.
A great part of the native French has always been openly or covertly racist towards the North African immigrants in France. I am not surprised by the presence of feelings of hatred amongst the North Africans. This event will make the native French even more racist and the North Africans even more filled with hate. Then, you also have the aspect of religion. The native French like to make derogatory remarks about Islam, while the Muslims may badly overreact. As outsiders, we can only watch how all of this will unfold ...
The native French like to make derogatory remarks about Islam, while the Muslims may badly overreact.
It is a bit flippant to put those two so close. The point is not who is right and who is wrong, he said she said---the point is that some people went objectively too far. We draw the line at physical violence.
Unless, of course, you actually believe that making derogatory remarks about Islam is comparable to what happened. It's not exactly clear from your comment; do you?
I'm not really into the geopolitics and recent news, but what's wrong with this plan? Hopefully the future European governments will be up to something along those lines rather than balkanization followed by the final solution.
1. Move all illegal migrants to a heavily guarded area akin to the Gaza Strip. All EU members would pay for building and maintaining the camps. Base the camps in a non-EU country so that drastic measures could be taken in case situation gets out of control.
2. Don't grant any new citizenships to legal migrants from high-risk countries, instead issue permanent residence permits and then deport anybody suspected of radicalization.
3. Perform full-scale military intervention in the Middle East to restore the old order. Ideally make deal with Russians and Syrian government to take care of the most dirty tasks.
Please stop posting ideological boilerplate to HN. That's the antithesis of what this site is for: it doesn't gratify intellectual curiosity, it merely inflames pre-existing opinions and riles everybody up. You've posted dozens of comments in the genre, and it's time to stop.
I suppose we can look forward to the next Franco-German war. Also, I want all the Catholics/Muslims/Protestants/Jews/Hindus/Agnostics/Atheists out of my town and out of my workplace. Perhaps corporate America and SV can adopt a WASP-only policy. [1]
Millions of innocent, terrorized, poverty-stricken refugees and one commits a crime - by all logic, the problem is refugees.
[1] To leave no doubt, this is sarcasm. I do not mean it; it's stated as a satire of the absurdity of such thinking.
Except that multiculturalism is pretty much the antithesis of the French system. But maybe you meant something else like "foreigners living where they don't belong", right?
> This is a false-flag attack designed to motivate moving western operations in Syria from covert to overt. There are already Russians and Chinese in Syria so this could literally kick of WWIII if no one stops it. Unfortunately the media is so well controlled that the ubiquitous war propaganda is generally not questioned.
> As demonstrated by the instant downvote of my comment, media that isn't explicitly controlled is generally self-censored to protect the mythical reality supporting the war effort.
The instant downvoting of your comment has got very little to do with a global conspiracy and media control and far more to do with the fact that your are seriously deluded. Your comments are of the type "I am the only sane person in the world"
> As demonstrated by the instant downvote of my comment, media that isn't explicitly controlled is generally self-censored to protect the mythical reality supporting the war effort.
The downvotes of your comment don't demonstrate that.
You're making insensitive assertions with no evidence to back them up. Further, others have made more intelligent contributions on the rights and wrongs of certain state powers without getting downvoted.
Not everything is a false flag attack. People are down voting you because you provide zero substantive evidence to your claims. Personally I am against a violent response as I know it's futile yet I still believe this attack was legit ISIS. The problem was caused by war and won't be solved by more war.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
It is interesting information of a technical nature relevant to an important current event. That it is distributed in a manner HN finds quite palatable is icing.
It is on the front-page of HN because sufficient HN members found it interesting enough to upvote. If you visit Github, I am sure you will find quite a few stories that have not made the front page of HN.
Time for Europe to really take care of its backyard in the MENA.
Its policy of supporting despots and tyrants, the latest of which was Sisi of Egypt ,to contain the radicals and terrorists, that they engender with their oppressive policies on an industrial scale, has to change course soon.
Time for the European leaders to have some faith in the people of the region that they would make a better future for themselves (Tunisia as an example) and not fall victim to perpetual and vicious cycle of violence as they fear or have led to believe.
I know that Europeans are in a very precarious situation between a rock and a hard place where they know that tyrants are using them and holding the security of their southern border as hostage and that they have to turn a blind eye to their sytemic repression and prosecution of opposition in exchange of not having to worry about taking considerable and resource draining measures to secure the borders but on the other hand these very tyrants have set domestic policies and failing economic programs that are breeding more and more of these terrorists and desperate people by the day that they are no longer can contain and put on leash i.e. increase in aggregate numbers and the hit ratio for terrorists, not to mention that this plays in the tyrants' hands increasing the leverage they have worsening the awful even more.
Like with the movement to decriminalize/legalize marijuana in the west, it's time for Europeans to exert more influence to legalize the aspirations and legitimate demands of people in the MENA region for living in a true democracy and free society and not be intimidated by the threats of tyrants and despots.
Time to operate on this ever-swelling cyst in the region before it explodes in everyone's face and infect everything that it touches. I know that it will be very messy and painful esp in the beginning but as we say here and I paraphrase "Going through pain for an hour is better than having it every hour"
[+] [-] Luker88|10 years ago|reply
Italy and Spain also stopped terrorist cells this month, but they don't seem to have such laws...
Guess they need more unwarranted power, uh?
[+] [-] junto|10 years ago|reply
If I was a doctor and my patient had cancer in his foot, then if try to treat the foot to get rid of the cancer. I would also pay particularly close attention to the leg connected to that foot, to make sure that the cancer did not spread throughout the entire body.
With that in mind, I believe that our only choice, assuming we want our free and open societies to remain as they are, is to monitor all Muslims living in Europe who have the potential to be radicalised and turned cancerous. Warrant, judge, monitor.
We could try and close all the borders (they are porous) or we can make pointless suggestions, like we should kick all immigrants out of our countries, but the fact remains that the attackers in London and Paris earlier in the year (and I'm betting last night too) are second or third generation immigrants who were born in the west.
Since 9/11 the security services have tried to crack down on radicalization within the internal Muslim communities, by expelling radical clerics, but the internet allows the radicalization of the very young and marginalised youth (mostly boys), to continue. This isn't surprising considering the racism against immigrants in the ghettoes of Paris, and the exclusion of these youths from French society. First came the riots in 2005, and now something much more sinister has arrived.
Or societies are desperately trying not to impose draconian rules of monitoring on a religious group, but as it stands I see little choice in the matter.
Also Germany is facing a firestorm. Within the large numbers of genuine refugees, are Syrian fighters from both sides. Some are most likely disillusioned by the brutality of ISIS, and some are coming to watch the world burn. We desperately need to know who these people are and urgently before they disappear into the masses.
We also need to understand ISIS and what they are trying to do. Wikileaks recently published a document [1] that outlines their goals and they are simple. They want to achieve the Islamic State with pure Sharia Law. Moderate Muslims (aka "the greyzone") either have to join, or be burnt in the war with all other Kafir (that has been prophesied). They need the west to turn against their Muslim communities forcing them back to fighting and into the open arms of ISIS. They want those new immigrants in Germany to be excluded, treated like dogs, so that they either return to the middle east and (re)join the perverted form of Islam that is preached by IS.
Now you can see the dilemma that the west faces. On the one hand, logic dictates that they need to closely monitor the youths in Europe who are getting radicalised over the internet, but they can't single out a religious group without a severe backlash. The alternative is to monitor everyone on the internet, because in doing that you get to watch the small part that you are interested in, without appearing to religiously persecuting Muslims.
Finally, there is a twitter account [2] that follows radical militia fighters from Syria and the middle East. A large number of which are now posting photos of them in Europe now. We need to find them now.
[1] ISIS strategy in France: Provoke a crackdown on Muslims to "Eliminate the Grayzone" https://t.co/8fb8BbKOG2 #ParisAttacks #AttaquesParis
[2] https://mobile.twitter.com/EU_MilitiaWatch/
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] fasterthanlime|10 years ago|reply
If you have any other questions, I'll try to point you to reliable sources. Thanks for your interest in what happens to our country!
[+] [-] ilaksh|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dbcooper|10 years ago|reply
I know that all universities and research institutes are closed on Saturday.[1] Sucks if you have cells to maintain.
It would be awfully sad if people can't go out and drink and eat freely in one of the great European cities. If I was still in Paris I'd want to be having a good, relaxed time with my friends tonight.
[1]Bonjour,
Sur décision de la Mairie de Paris et du Rectorat, toutes les écoles et établissements académiques seront fermés le samedi 14/11/15.
[+] [-] corin_|10 years ago|reply
It's still quite a tense atmosphere here.
[+] [-] tgb|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hackuser|10 years ago|reply
If they are scaring you - especially into a state of conflict - they've won. There were only 8 of them. They can't really threaten you.
ISIS wants irreconcileable division and conflict between people who are Muslim and others. Are you giving it to them - and because of 8 people? The real conflict should be between peace-loving people and violent nutcases like ISIS - then our enemy is vastly outnumbered.
France's response should be to counter ISIS' goals, and heal divisions between people of different religions. Eliminate their ban on clothing worn by Muslims, accept more refugees; nothing would be more crushing to ISIS than people of all faiths living peacefully, happily side-by-side, as friends, neighbors, and families.
[+] [-] codedokode|10 years ago|reply
People living in Syria and Iraq have their cities bombed by western armies. People in Lybia saw it earlier. Maybe they lost their friends or relatives in a war. Sorry but your naive words about peaceful living would sound like a bullshit to them.
[+] [-] gizi|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nothrabannosir|10 years ago|reply
It is a bit flippant to put those two so close. The point is not who is right and who is wrong, he said she said---the point is that some people went objectively too far. We draw the line at physical violence.
Unless, of course, you actually believe that making derogatory remarks about Islam is comparable to what happened. It's not exactly clear from your comment; do you?
[+] [-] Thaxll|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] astrobe_|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spoiledtechie|10 years ago|reply
This isn't truly searchable by google or Bing and stack exchange is.
Can someone please move this to the better alternative?
[+] [-] fasterthanlime|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] micron7|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jarek-foksa|10 years ago|reply
1. Move all illegal migrants to a heavily guarded area akin to the Gaza Strip. All EU members would pay for building and maintaining the camps. Base the camps in a non-EU country so that drastic measures could be taken in case situation gets out of control.
2. Don't grant any new citizenships to legal migrants from high-risk countries, instead issue permanent residence permits and then deport anybody suspected of radicalization.
3. Perform full-scale military intervention in the Middle East to restore the old order. Ideally make deal with Russians and Syrian government to take care of the most dirty tasks.
4. Move migrants back to their homeland.
[+] [-] programmernews3|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dang|10 years ago|reply
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10565736 and marked it off-topic.
[+] [-] bayesianhorse|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hackuser|10 years ago|reply
Millions of innocent, terrorized, poverty-stricken refugees and one commits a crime - by all logic, the problem is refugees.
[1] To leave no doubt, this is sarcasm. I do not mean it; it's stated as a satire of the absurdity of such thinking.
[+] [-] dkns|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oneeyedpigeon|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ilaksh|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] SeanDav|10 years ago|reply
> As demonstrated by the instant downvote of my comment, media that isn't explicitly controlled is generally self-censored to protect the mythical reality supporting the war effort.
The instant downvoting of your comment has got very little to do with a global conspiracy and media control and far more to do with the fact that your are seriously deluded. Your comments are of the type "I am the only sane person in the world"
[+] [-] simoncarter|10 years ago|reply
The downvotes of your comment don't demonstrate that. You're making insensitive assertions with no evidence to back them up. Further, others have made more intelligent contributions on the rights and wrongs of certain state powers without getting downvoted.
[+] [-] rorykoehler|10 years ago|reply
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
[+] [-] reptation|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] joosters|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] JackuB|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fabulist|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SeanDav|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gotchange|10 years ago|reply
Its policy of supporting despots and tyrants, the latest of which was Sisi of Egypt ,to contain the radicals and terrorists, that they engender with their oppressive policies on an industrial scale, has to change course soon.
Time for the European leaders to have some faith in the people of the region that they would make a better future for themselves (Tunisia as an example) and not fall victim to perpetual and vicious cycle of violence as they fear or have led to believe.
I know that Europeans are in a very precarious situation between a rock and a hard place where they know that tyrants are using them and holding the security of their southern border as hostage and that they have to turn a blind eye to their sytemic repression and prosecution of opposition in exchange of not having to worry about taking considerable and resource draining measures to secure the borders but on the other hand these very tyrants have set domestic policies and failing economic programs that are breeding more and more of these terrorists and desperate people by the day that they are no longer can contain and put on leash i.e. increase in aggregate numbers and the hit ratio for terrorists, not to mention that this plays in the tyrants' hands increasing the leverage they have worsening the awful even more.
Like with the movement to decriminalize/legalize marijuana in the west, it's time for Europeans to exert more influence to legalize the aspirations and legitimate demands of people in the MENA region for living in a true democracy and free society and not be intimidated by the threats of tyrants and despots.
Time to operate on this ever-swelling cyst in the region before it explodes in everyone's face and infect everything that it touches. I know that it will be very messy and painful esp in the beginning but as we say here and I paraphrase "Going through pain for an hour is better than having it every hour"
Help us to help you.