Theory: The brain has two hemispheres: One does the talking and one does the listening. Sometimes we react because the "self" is the last to know or just reacts not realizing it is a self evaluation below our awareness. (Dog goes to bite your hand and you react.) We then try to assign order to that chaos with a reason such as "god[s]", or "spirit[s] warned us or made us do so.
Snippet: "..."... Leftovers of the bicameral mind today, according to Jaynes, include religion, hypnosis, possession, schizophrenia and the general sense of need for external authority in decision-making...."
The Bicameral-Mind theorist apparently claimed that before 3,000 years ago all/most people behaved as the article's author, receiving direction and correction from externally perceived voices. Only at some point around that time did people become meta-aware, conscious of their own thoughts.
Are there any more recent works that develop on this idea with new research and historical analysis, or is this 40-year old book still the best there is?
Interesting article. Moreso for me as this is perhaps the one topic around here i have some first hand experience with.
That feeling is really really odd though. There's a moment when you go "wait, that's an apparently fully functioning consciousness that is capable of responding to my every thought, my brain/reality can DO THAT?". For me it took a long time to play off the many different possible solutions to that puzzle, and at the end of the day i settled for a mix of "currently unknown exactly how that is done" (sort of like consciousness itself, i guess) to "wow, reality sure does have some extra layers of "fun" i hadn't really been informed about.
If the voice(es) in any way confined themselves to the spectrum of being/knowledge that i as an individual acknowledged that i was in posession of, that would be one thing, but the world becomes a weird place when they go outside your acknowledged "knowns".
Now, i was lucky enough to have a very supportive and patient family that viewed it as something that could be managed outside of the realm of antipsychotic therapy. I'm not saying that handling it with prescribed drugs is necessarily a bad idea, if it works for you then i hope it continues to do so.
Sorry for the rant, but i was just reminded of how weird all of that stuff was to go through. Its been a while since i thought about it.
I guess it goes parallell to another question i have. How is it possible for a brain without anything but pretty basic musical training to conjure up a fully functioning, never before heard, tunable symphony. This was a place i occasionally ended up in the midst of all of the nightly mental hoolahoops i had to go through. (It would collapse on itself eventually, but still, the array of instruments and sounds was way more than i could ever make in my normal waking time).
It is basically the same question as "how does the brain conjure dream", i guess. But experienced from the awake state. And it just stays with you in a slightly different way when you experience it whilst awake.
"If the voice(es) in any way confined themselves to the spectrum of being/knowledge that i as an individual acknowledged that i was in posession of, that would be one thing, but the world becomes a weird place when they go outside your acknowledged "knowns"."
If you feel like sharing, I'd love to hear more about your experience with this.
It should be noted that studies looking at normal vs no/reduced antipsychotic therapy in patients with psychotic dieases have indicated that in the long term patients may do significantly better without antipsychotic therapy.
I often have intense fantasies about conversations with personal mentors, historical figures and/or deities (what would Buddha say? How about Einstein? etc). Obviously I can't reproduce their thoughts, but knowing a little about them, I can try to think like them
Surely they're not as visceral or reflexive as the author's voices. But I have always found value in empathizing with fantasized mentors, which has given me confidence in my opinions.
I sometimes talk to myself or to hypothetical instances of other people I know. I try to do this quietly at times since I know it might not be perceived favorably by others. Mainly I do this to verbally externalize thoughts and force them back into my auditory memory (deliberately), hopefully reinforcing or bolstering a position I want to take or a course of action I need to take later.
I hope I never lose track that I am initiating those conversations...I'm old enough to be well past the standard age for developing schizophrenia...but if I did lose track, I at least have my atheism to fall back upon and my memory of having read through Jaynes a couple of times.
There's that Hofstadterian notion that empathy consists of spawning a VM in your brain and running a simulation of another person in it, which sounds not unlike what you are describing.
I thought everyone did this? I certainly do. I remember reading Bridget Jones's Diary and cracking up at this list of statistics at the beginning of one entry:
> 124 lbs ..., alcohol units 4, cigarettes 10, calories 1876, minutes spent having imaginary conversations with Daniel 24 (excellent), minutes spent imagining rerun of conversations with mother in which I come out on top 94.
That's when I realized it's more or less a universal thing.
I have this thing where I wake up at 5:00 AM and my internal monologue sounds like someone twisting the tuning knob back and forth on a radio. Anyone know a name for that?
In Buddhist meditative practice terminology, it's known as the "monkey-mind" and the practice involves watching the "mind-stream" flow, from thought to sensation to feeling to thought...
Sound different from the life experience of a woman I met recently who also had to withdraw from uni through overwork. That was over fifteen years ago. Unfortunately she was sectioned by her family (who all then skipped off to America). She's been prescribed a cocktail of psychotropic pharmaceuticals ever since. She has developed type two diabetes, disruption of thyroid activity, kidney damage, fluid retention and dangerously overweight. A once intelligent and good looking woman reduced to a shambling wreak like something out of the living dead and can't even remember what you told her yesterday. Not much of a cure after fifteen years of 'treatment'. The mental health professionals must know the damage the drugs are doing. But I guess they are making a good living out of her.
-------
I find that whole article manipulative and disingenuous in the extreme. A full page free advertisement for the psycho-pharma industry.
Did it ever strike you that maybe the physician recommended against the pharmaceutical treatment, but the patient still went for it anyway because "I have to do something"?
So the solution is to provide drugs that somehow deaden random neurons in somewhat random parts of the brain, and hope they don't cause massive side effects down the line?
Just like that dental article a few days ago, doesn't the current psychiatric medicine seem like using a backhoe on a flower pot? Sure, you move the soil, but you trash the porch.
It depends which medications you're talking about, and which conditions you're treating with them. A lot of them are more like using a shovel on a flowerpot. Still not precisely the right tool, but they get the job done and the porch is still in good shape.
> So the solution is to provide drugs that somehow deaden random neurons in somewhat random parts of the brain, and hope they don't cause massive side effects down the line?
The author didn't share a diagnosis, nor did he or she share the specific medication(s) that helped. Given that, how can you conclude that the drugs "deadened neurons"?
I share your skepticism of modern psychiatric medicine, and yet I think you might be missing some understanding and/or empathy for the patient. He or she is describing schizophrenia and major depressive disorder [1], and while often found together, either one can be utterly debilitating. It would not surprise me if the patient had the same concerns as you and I, but was so desperate, so hopeless that they were willing to take the risk.
[1] not a doctor, therapist, counselor or anything close
The author sure seems to appreciate it. Even if there's a tradeoff, I would gladly accept senility in old age in exchange for sanity now, especially when doing nothing will certainly mean senility in old age regardless.
For a few years, every time my mind was momentarily still it would repeat the word "death". It never bothered me, and I always interpreted it philosophically (eg. as a meditational aid) and put it down to reading too much Buddhist literature.
Sounds a bit like OCD. If I keep my mind still, something terrible always fills the void and I have to give my consciousness something to focus on. When I was younger, I referred to this as "hearing voices"; it was a huge relief when I eventually found out about OCD and its symptoms. It's exhausting!
We all have at least one of these voices in our heads. Like the author, some of us give them names, and fancy conversations among them. But for the most part, they simply occur to us as "I".
"I" likes to think that it's running the show, but really it's at best a commentator. All too often, that "I" fucks up and sabotages. As HenryTheHorse notes, in Buddhism it's called the "monkey mind". It's a machine that evolved for survival and reproduction.
Anyway, it's useful to distinguish "It" -- the "monkey mind" survival machine -- from ones identity. And that's a practice to engage in. Understanding is the booby prize ;)
No, hearing voices is a very different experience to the regular internal monologue that everyone has.
People hearing voices perceive those heard voices in the same way they'd perceive an actual person talking to them.
People experience different voices, but it's reasonably common to experience the voice as male and standing behind you. But the voice could be whispering (like white noise), or robotic, and it could appear to come from people actually in the room or from objects.
[+] [-] SCAQTony|10 years ago|reply
Theory: The brain has two hemispheres: One does the talking and one does the listening. Sometimes we react because the "self" is the last to know or just reacts not realizing it is a self evaluation below our awareness. (Dog goes to bite your hand and you react.) We then try to assign order to that chaos with a reason such as "god[s]", or "spirit[s] warned us or made us do so.
Snippet: "..."... Leftovers of the bicameral mind today, according to Jaynes, include religion, hypnosis, possession, schizophrenia and the general sense of need for external authority in decision-making...."
[+] [-] nwatson|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pavel_lishin|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vorg|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] namenumber|10 years ago|reply
That feeling is really really odd though. There's a moment when you go "wait, that's an apparently fully functioning consciousness that is capable of responding to my every thought, my brain/reality can DO THAT?". For me it took a long time to play off the many different possible solutions to that puzzle, and at the end of the day i settled for a mix of "currently unknown exactly how that is done" (sort of like consciousness itself, i guess) to "wow, reality sure does have some extra layers of "fun" i hadn't really been informed about.
If the voice(es) in any way confined themselves to the spectrum of being/knowledge that i as an individual acknowledged that i was in posession of, that would be one thing, but the world becomes a weird place when they go outside your acknowledged "knowns".
Now, i was lucky enough to have a very supportive and patient family that viewed it as something that could be managed outside of the realm of antipsychotic therapy. I'm not saying that handling it with prescribed drugs is necessarily a bad idea, if it works for you then i hope it continues to do so.
Sorry for the rant, but i was just reminded of how weird all of that stuff was to go through. Its been a while since i thought about it.
[+] [-] namenumber|10 years ago|reply
It is basically the same question as "how does the brain conjure dream", i guess. But experienced from the awake state. And it just stays with you in a slightly different way when you experience it whilst awake.
I guess i'll never know.
[+] [-] DanBC|10 years ago|reply
You may like this article that talks about people who hear voices but who don't have a psychotic illness.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2014/aug/13/hear-voi...
They too prefer to manage with meds.
[+] [-] thomyorkie|10 years ago|reply
If you feel like sharing, I'd love to hear more about your experience with this.
[+] [-] khed|10 years ago|reply
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23824214 http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2013/antipsychotics-t...
[+] [-] cygnus_a|10 years ago|reply
Surely they're not as visceral or reflexive as the author's voices. But I have always found value in empathizing with fantasized mentors, which has given me confidence in my opinions.
[+] [-] sageikosa|10 years ago|reply
I hope I never lose track that I am initiating those conversations...I'm old enough to be well past the standard age for developing schizophrenia...but if I did lose track, I at least have my atheism to fall back upon and my memory of having read through Jaynes a couple of times.
[+] [-] marssaxman|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] __david__|10 years ago|reply
> 124 lbs ..., alcohol units 4, cigarettes 10, calories 1876, minutes spent having imaginary conversations with Daniel 24 (excellent), minutes spent imagining rerun of conversations with mother in which I come out on top 94.
That's when I realized it's more or less a universal thing.
[+] [-] GuiA|10 years ago|reply
http://www.meltingasphalt.com/neurons-gone-wild/
[+] [-] dx211|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ashark|10 years ago|reply
Yeah, I get that every so often. Every couple months, maybe. No idea what it might be called.
[+] [-] denom|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HenryTheHorse|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] leviathant|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwawayornot|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grubles|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NickHaflinger|10 years ago|reply
I find that whole article manipulative and disingenuous in the extreme. A full page free advertisement for the psycho-pharma industry.
[+] [-] frenchy|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kefka|10 years ago|reply
Just like that dental article a few days ago, doesn't the current psychiatric medicine seem like using a backhoe on a flower pot? Sure, you move the soil, but you trash the porch.
[+] [-] ksenzee|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] troym|10 years ago|reply
The author didn't share a diagnosis, nor did he or she share the specific medication(s) that helped. Given that, how can you conclude that the drugs "deadened neurons"?
I share your skepticism of modern psychiatric medicine, and yet I think you might be missing some understanding and/or empathy for the patient. He or she is describing schizophrenia and major depressive disorder [1], and while often found together, either one can be utterly debilitating. It would not surprise me if the patient had the same concerns as you and I, but was so desperate, so hopeless that they were willing to take the risk.
[1] not a doctor, therapist, counselor or anything close
[edited to fix footnote]
[+] [-] Zikes|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] contingencies|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] archagon|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] NoMoreNicksLeft|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mirimir|10 years ago|reply
"I" likes to think that it's running the show, but really it's at best a commentator. All too often, that "I" fucks up and sabotages. As HenryTheHorse notes, in Buddhism it's called the "monkey mind". It's a machine that evolved for survival and reproduction.
Anyway, it's useful to distinguish "It" -- the "monkey mind" survival machine -- from ones identity. And that's a practice to engage in. Understanding is the booby prize ;)
[+] [-] DanBC|10 years ago|reply
People hearing voices perceive those heard voices in the same way they'd perceive an actual person talking to them.
People experience different voices, but it's reasonably common to experience the voice as male and standing behind you. But the voice could be whispering (like white noise), or robotic, and it could appear to come from people actually in the room or from objects.
[+] [-] peter303|10 years ago|reply