I'd like to set up several of these LPRs along the highway that I travel regularly, compile a listing of license plate numbers of law enforcement vehicles (such as the unmarked police cruisers that like to travel it, pull drivers over, and ticket them), have those automatically mapped in a mobile application that's free for everyone to use, and see just how much law enforcment would like it then.
I had this running on Android a while back - turns out that back then (~3 years ago) it was _very_ hard to detect and recognise plates far enough away to be of any use. I could make it work for a plate in my target set that was directly in front or behind me, but any further that a few tens of meters away the performance dropped so badly that it was unusable.
I suspect a much better job could be done now, with a combination of better cameras in phones, more cpu available to do the processing on newer phones, and I suspect a multicopter brushless camera gimbal to stabilise/aim the camera.
(I was very space-limited, since I was testing this on a motorcycle, a car with a better-than-phone-grade machine in it would make the job simpler.)
"After all, drivers do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy over their publicly-visible plate number while driving down public roads."
Random people can see my license plate but they don't know who I am. Today only people who know my license plate AND happen to see it randomly know I'm there at this moment, which is a reasonable expectation of privacy for me.
Now if there was a website where you can query a partially complete trip history of any license plate completely void that privacy. Think about such a tool in the hands of a paparazzi for instance...
You know the towtruck/repo industry currently compiles exactly this kind of dataset, and trades/sells it to each other? I have no doubt that well funded paparazzi already have access to exactly the tool you describe.
or any one with an ax to grind with a political figure. You manage to jeopardize a senator or two's privacy (and more importantly, security of them and their family) and you'll see legislation protecting everyone from this kind of technology tomorrow.
Just FYI, you can pull an address from a license plate for about 40 dollars. We're all driving around with our addresses on our cars, there's no way to avoid that.
I wonder if an extremely range-limited RFID plate with a challenge-response system that only local LEAs can read (modulo leaks, of course) would be better. We'd lose the ability for people reporting a crime to say "plate XYZ on green car at location A just did Q illegal thing", but maybe "green car at location A just did Q illegal thing" would be good enough.
I'm not quite sure how generating more data about people's locations and putting it in the hands of more people is considered a victory for privacy advocates.
On one level I agree - ensuring that it's easier for, say, a criminal gang to track unmarked police cars or abusive exes to find their victims seems a backward step.
The flips side of that, though, is that this power exists and is being used by rich, powerful entities anyway. If I was a law-abiding member of a mosque or political group, I'd love to know that undercover law enforcement officers are trying to stir up trouble, for example. If they can track me, why shouldn't I be able to track them? Or, less melodramatically, the highest rate of road fatalities in my country involve logging trucks. There are persistent claims that companies keep them on the road for more hours than their drivers are legally allowed to work, but they're politically shielded from official investigations. It would be nice for citizen groups to have the tools to investigate those claims.
If we should be able to go about free of day-to-day surveillance (absent good, court-approved cause), which I certainly agree with, then we should be modifying laws and institutions to reflect that. Since what we've got is a situation where the powerful (government agencies, large companies) use the absence of regulation and powerful tools to watch us the second-best option is for us to have the tools to watch them.
I'd like to see the license plates of stolen vehicles published. I don't see that as a violation of privacy, especially if the owners agree to publish them.
Then anybody could see stolen vehicles and report them. That would discourage theft.
As someone else pointed out, this could be a good way to crowd source watching the watchers.
You may be able to get a list of law enforcement license plates through a FOIA request and then use this plus a network of many highway cameras to show a map of where law enforcement was last seen.
the same way that Wireshark benefits security professionals by making it easier to monitor the network for bad people and audit applications to make sure they aren't doing bad things even though it also makes it easier for bad people to see what good people are doing.
* note: the definition of "good people" and "bad people" is not the point here
At least there is a more trustworthy method of validation. Is it illegal for me to spend my time on a lawn chair on the side of the highway logging the plates I see if that's the kind of thing that blows my skirt up?
Essentially - if you have modified openalpr then you are probably violating, if you haven't you probably aren't.
Unless you are a small company with a business model tied tightly around using a modified openalpr to generate revenue then there is plenty of scope for complying with the license without damaging the business. If you are then the company is stealing and I would advise leaving.
Either way you are under a moral, and potentially legal, obligation to bring the company towards compliance. Advice for you is not to massively rock the boat - do not use it as a means to hurt your employer (even after leaving) do not focus too much on it.
IANAL; The way I would approach this:
- forward the this news article (not the hacker news post) and the openalpr license page http://www.openalpr.com/license.html to your legal contact (and manager?). Attach a simple and professional message along the lines of "Saw an article about some software we use and I am concerned we may be accidentally violating the license"
- Do not act like you really care. You were just exercising due diligence in your job and forwarding on to people that deal with it. Don't rock the boat, don't defend yourself, don't threaten.
- Do care. If your company does not respond to you within a few weeks, threatens you in any way (interrogation), or says they are deliberately ignoring the license then you need to work on getting a new job. This is because your employers act exploitatively and without respect to the work of others (such as yourself). When you come into legal dispute (which happens more often with these kinds) they are not the ones you want to be fighting. So find another job (take your time) and leave, do not cite the license as a reason. Once you are safe notify the developers.
If you are careful, not disruptive, and don't use it to create gossip or push other agendas most employers will engage legal advice and work towards resolution thanking you in the process (its way better than being sued!) and you need not suddenly leave your job over an honest mistake.
Find another job. Then consult with a lawyer to see what risk you have if report them to the developer of that software whose copyright is being abused.
Don't post about it with an account that is linked to your "real" identity is a good first step. Details depend on your local laws, but generally there isn't much you can do outside of bringing it up with someone responsible at your company without risking legal trouble with them.
This kind of surveillance by government isn't going away, so I'm happy to see this kind of technology ending up in the hands of the public to help level the playing field.
I was thinking about creating an this with OpenCV in response to law enforcement's use and abuse of similar systems. It would be great to provide instructions on building a cheap, pseudo-anonymous, dash mounted system to track police vehicles that could be faux-subpoenad for testimony in real cases. "If you've got nothing to hide" should go in both directions.
Last time I drove south for vacation we ran into people whom we ran into the previous year at a roadside restaurant.
That got me thinking about LPRs. Lease some land or the roof of a few buildings, and you'll build a dossier of regular I-95 travelers. People often go on vacation at the same time.
Figure out how to buy license plate data from the DMV, and you can market all sorts of stuff.
Gov buys these devices from companies. If the company already sells to gov, why wouldn't they use opensource solution, use fewer developers and pocket the difference? I'm assuming gov already covers silly markup on big purchases because of the bureaucracy around it.
Imagine if you were storing the license plate in a mysql db and someone attached a sql command at the back of the car that drops the sql db. I would find that hilarious.
[+] [-] jlgaddis|10 years ago|reply
What's good for the goose ...
[+] [-] bigiain|10 years ago|reply
I suspect a much better job could be done now, with a combination of better cameras in phones, more cpu available to do the processing on newer phones, and I suspect a multicopter brushless camera gimbal to stabilise/aim the camera.
(I was very space-limited, since I was testing this on a motorcycle, a car with a better-than-phone-grade machine in it would make the job simpler.)
[+] [-] delinka|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] such_a_casual|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vmarsy|10 years ago|reply
Random people can see my license plate but they don't know who I am. Today only people who know my license plate AND happen to see it randomly know I'm there at this moment, which is a reasonable expectation of privacy for me.
Now if there was a website where you can query a partially complete trip history of any license plate completely void that privacy. Think about such a tool in the hands of a paparazzi for instance...
[+] [-] bigiain|10 years ago|reply
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/automobiles/28REPO.html?_r... http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/license-plate-data-not-jus... http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/43/4338.asp
[+] [-] jMyles|10 years ago|reply
I'm not criticizing you; just clarifying. These are tough questions.
I tend to think that if you're in the clear to document something (ie, it's in public), then you are in the clear to publish it.
Otherwise, we have a mess of free speech boundaries.
[+] [-] ender89|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TACIXAT|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nitrogen|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] finnn|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saurik|10 years ago|reply
^ Link to the actual software from last week and some associated discussion.
[+] [-] csandreasen|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rodgerd|10 years ago|reply
The flips side of that, though, is that this power exists and is being used by rich, powerful entities anyway. If I was a law-abiding member of a mosque or political group, I'd love to know that undercover law enforcement officers are trying to stir up trouble, for example. If they can track me, why shouldn't I be able to track them? Or, less melodramatically, the highest rate of road fatalities in my country involve logging trucks. There are persistent claims that companies keep them on the road for more hours than their drivers are legally allowed to work, but they're politically shielded from official investigations. It would be nice for citizen groups to have the tools to investigate those claims.
If we should be able to go about free of day-to-day surveillance (absent good, court-approved cause), which I certainly agree with, then we should be modifying laws and institutions to reflect that. Since what we've got is a situation where the powerful (government agencies, large companies) use the absence of regulation and powerful tools to watch us the second-best option is for us to have the tools to watch them.
[+] [-] Symbiote|10 years ago|reply
It could lead to restrictions on what the government is permitted to do with the data.
[+] [-] stretchwithme|10 years ago|reply
Then anybody could see stolen vehicles and report them. That would discourage theft.
[+] [-] cornellwright|10 years ago|reply
You may be able to get a list of law enforcement license plates through a FOIA request and then use this plus a network of many highway cameras to show a map of where law enforcement was last seen.
[+] [-] Hello71|10 years ago|reply
* note: the definition of "good people" and "bad people" is not the point here
[+] [-] dexterdog|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Walkman|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] egroat|10 years ago|reply
This may provide more clarity: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1960802/can-i-use-librari...
Essentially - if you have modified openalpr then you are probably violating, if you haven't you probably aren't.
Unless you are a small company with a business model tied tightly around using a modified openalpr to generate revenue then there is plenty of scope for complying with the license without damaging the business. If you are then the company is stealing and I would advise leaving.
Either way you are under a moral, and potentially legal, obligation to bring the company towards compliance. Advice for you is not to massively rock the boat - do not use it as a means to hurt your employer (even after leaving) do not focus too much on it.
IANAL; The way I would approach this:
- forward the this news article (not the hacker news post) and the openalpr license page http://www.openalpr.com/license.html to your legal contact (and manager?). Attach a simple and professional message along the lines of "Saw an article about some software we use and I am concerned we may be accidentally violating the license"
- Do not act like you really care. You were just exercising due diligence in your job and forwarding on to people that deal with it. Don't rock the boat, don't defend yourself, don't threaten.
- Do care. If your company does not respond to you within a few weeks, threatens you in any way (interrogation), or says they are deliberately ignoring the license then you need to work on getting a new job. This is because your employers act exploitatively and without respect to the work of others (such as yourself). When you come into legal dispute (which happens more often with these kinds) they are not the ones you want to be fighting. So find another job (take your time) and leave, do not cite the license as a reason. Once you are safe notify the developers.
If you are careful, not disruptive, and don't use it to create gossip or push other agendas most employers will engage legal advice and work towards resolution thanking you in the process (its way better than being sued!) and you need not suddenly leave your job over an honest mistake.
[+] [-] godzillabrennus|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] detaro|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EvanAnderson|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gardnr|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Spooky23|10 years ago|reply
That got me thinking about LPRs. Lease some land or the roof of a few buildings, and you'll build a dossier of regular I-95 travelers. People often go on vacation at the same time.
Figure out how to buy license plate data from the DMV, and you can market all sorts of stuff.
[+] [-] sitkack|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CraigJPerry|10 years ago|reply
1. Govt will get to spend less on licence plate reading cameras
2. Govt will now be able to get more systems for the same spend
[+] [-] viraptor|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pcunite|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kevindeasis|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thejosh|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] microcolonel|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gardnr|10 years ago|reply