You're in Europe, you are protected. The database is copyrighted whilst the data isn't itself copyrightable. It is when the act of compiling the data is non-trivial and you can show that the data has resulted from this process (which you appear to be able to given that you have used names and entered routes in a way specific to your process) that you are covered.
I'd start off with talking to him. His website http://www.philipkirwan.ie/site/index.html states that he's doing an undergrad at Dublin City University, which no doubt includes lessons in the social aspect of computing including Copyright, Patents and Data Protection, etc.
My points: He will be well aware of copyright, and the institution really does not want to bring itself into disrepute as a result of the actions of their students. It would not do his study well at all to provable have stolen the work of someone else having been made very well aware of copyright during prior study. The question raised, "Is all of Philip Kirwin's work his own work?". And that for a university, and for Philip himself is a very big deal.
So I'd simply appeal to his own sense of self-preservation in that if he has indeed (as it appears) taken the content from your work and passed it off as his own then he is playing with fire that will burn him far greater than just losing the right to sell one iPhone application.
At this point, he's already potentially damaged his reputation through his actions, now it is up to him to determine whether he wants to salvage this or risk burning himself totally.
Except his own act of compiling is by ‘scraping’ the original source, against their own copyrights and T&Cs. In the case of a bus company’s timetable their own data—the times they run to, routes, etc.—is not public domain unless they release it as such. Both developers are equally at fault unless one or both has written permission to use the data in this manner.
I guess one obvious question is do you have permission from the Dublin Bus company to use their data yourself? From their T&Cs (http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Legal/) ‘No part of this website may be copied, performed in public, broadcast or adapted without the prior written consent of Córas Iompair Éireann. All rights on this material are reserved.‘ Your own ‘scraping’ of the data is itself legally questionable.
I was in contact with Dublin Bus during the development of the app. Sent them screenshots, etc. Anyone who responded thought it was a good idea, but passed me on to talk to someone else in the bureaucracy (it's a public company funded by the taxpayer).
In the end, the leads fizzled out and I didn't get written permission to use the data from Dublin Bus. I continued to keep them up to date on it, hoping that they'd even call me up on it so that we could figure something out. My objective was to get at the data cleanly without having to scrape, and also to form a relationship that might allow me to use the upcoming real-time data.
As I mentioned in the post, there was no app available for this before mine. Dublin Bus website is a mess (they've updated it in the last few months, but it's still awful) and it's particularly awkward to use on a small screen.
They're a government owned company and others have pointed out that 'data' can't have a copyright, but I'm not really sure to be honest. I suspect they're aware of it and are choosing not to act since it's benefiting their service.
I would argue that this is a different issue to what this other developer has done: He has taken my schema and my translation of the data which is my own original work.
There was this whole thing with that here in NY with the MTA. They were claiming that their time tables are copyrighted, but after it went in/out of courts it was determined that only the complied versions are and then they opened up their data files for developers. The time a train arrives and departs does not fall under copyright. I'm not sure how things are in the UK but I'd expect them to be fairly similar.
I think a lot of folks are missing the point of this blog post, and that is the App Store ecosystem has turned into the wild-wild west of development. I've never seen anything like how bad it has gotten.
In my case, I run a Web services platform that approximately 10 or so iPhone app developers have licensed and coded applications to. In the beginning, there was only one app that used our services and it became a top-10 paid app. Within weeks I found there were 6 or so apps that sprouted up in the App Store with similar names, exact functionality, yet they were not licensed to use our API and content.
The common thread? They stole the original app's SQLite database, repackaged the interface, and off they went. We blocked these apps from using our platform until they were licensed, but to this day I weekly see apps sprout up that are following the same nefarious business practice. They steal content from a popular innovative app, repackage as their own, and throw it to the masses for the quick buck.
It is disgusting ecosystem. I'd be willing to bet that 80% of the app store content and market is teams stealing and repackaging the 20% of actual true innovation that is occurring.
Don't waste your time on legal action on this iphone app. Yes, notify Apple and publicize it. But, your energy is better spent innovating and hacking. While screen-scraping is hard work it doesn't bring success and other good programmers can re-implement your work without stealing it. Hell, this might be a good opportunity to open source your screen scraper. Publicize it so that others will collaborate on improving it. Then you can focus on more interesting work. Data gathering is hard work, more people doing it make it easier.
What can you do with your app that isn't so easily stolen (and reproduced) and turned into a carbon copy? As you've already seen, public transit apps are a dime a dozen. How about a bigger/better itinerary application that includes trains, planes, and automobile times so that one can put an itinerary together of vacation travel across all of Ireland? Add hotel info, confirmation info, etc, etc, etc...
I don't have the links handy put there have been other articles on HN about lessons from stolen work. Big lesson: it rarely matters because the people stealing ideas and work don't have the skillset to do it themselves. In the long term they can't compete with the new features and directions that you'll go.
What I'm trying to say is, use that energy from your anger to create something fcking awesome that that stupid muppet won't be able to compete with.
* I'm from the US. Yesterday, I learned about the use of the word muppet over on that side of the pond. BRILLIANT!
I'm not sure that it's as clear cut as doing something that can't be easily copied — any iPhone app that stores data locally is vulnerable to this. (In fact, I'd advise other iPhone developers reading this to have a close look at any suspicious competitors). I'm cool with someone 'stealing the idea', just not when they go selling my implementation of it.
Map makers often add a bit of erroneous information to their maps, which allows them to detect when competitors copy their data outright. A similar approach seems applicable to this kind of application.
Great idea. If your competition gets his data from you, then you can leverage that position of power. First, you'll need to make sure you have the latest data. (If you're both updating with the Apple release cycle, then that will give you at least a week of lead time.) Second, a few booby traps in the data that your app knows to parse out will create angry customers for your competitor (after they wait or a bus that never comes) and you'll have "smoking gun" evidence that he's stealing your DB.
I just sent a message through a general app questions in iTunesConnect... does anyone know of a specific Apple e-mail address for these kinds of issues?
In future versions you might include made-up data for a nonexistent bus line, in the same way that cartography companies include nonexistent streets on maps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street
Have you considered encrypting your database, so that only your app can make sense of it? That's what a friend of mine used to do, and it indeed stopped some superficial copying.
A better solution would be hosting it online and then caching it on the client.
With the added benefit of bring able to tell when someone else accesses your content by failing to supply a special request header.
I would start by trying to talk to him. If that didn't work, I would call his school and make them aware of their student's shady doings. Then I would go to Apple and point out Apple is helping this guy to infringe on your copyright (the database is comprised of public data, but your work compiling it is non-trivial).
If the data were kept on-line and cached in the client, you could, as a final step of escalation, render his app useless. Or worse: make it supply wrong routes.
I think once you have sent him a forceful note or two asking him to back off, I would probably drop it. If you want to try and drum up some publicity over it on some other blogs, you might be able to make some headway. But I wouldn't expend lots of energy on him. This sort of thing is akin to people who have their blogs stolen and mirrored by SEO sites using their RSS feeds. You can spend all infinte time and energy chasing after people like this. Alternatively, you can use that same time and energy making new apps and improving existing ones.
I haven't looked at both apps, but I would venture to guess that someone who is cutting corners by stealing from other people is probably also not spending a whole lot of time on design, polish, and user experience. Those are things that are hard to copy effectively and a place where you can set yourself apart.
Having dropped small things on occasion, I am not entirely sure anymore it is the right thing to do. Chances are, it will keep gnawing at you - maybe it is better to just fight for one's rights? It could also be good practice in case something bigger comes up eventually. Then you would already have established contacts with lawyers and what not.
On the other hand, lawyers are costly and in the end might not be able to help. They are prone to suggesting the most expensive course of action, because they get a share of the worth of the case. At least in Germany.
Actually, as far as I understand it, though a specific item of data is not copyrightable, the whole collection that you call a phone book is copyrightable.
If I recall correctly, in fact, phone book producers usually include fake numbers in the phone book, so they can tell if you copied their version of the phone book, and sue you for it.
Database schemas however are. I believe Ireland also has the concept of database copyright (of course this would mean the act of scraping the timetables from the Dublin bus service website was also illegal)
I discovered today that I have a similar problem, even though I don't even have an iPhone app: someone copied graphics from my web site for his iPhone app.
So far I have contacted apple and the designer of the graphics to clarify the rights (designers provided the graphics but I don't know where they are from). Not thrilled, but I can't imagine just letting that person get away with it.
Although what the other comment said certainly applies: the quality of the ripped off app seems rather low. He uses some of my icons, but the rest of it looks ugly.
Anyway, would be curious to hear how your story unfolds.
The guy's twitter handle is @fluter, as http://twitter.com/fluter ... hope he shares light on his side of the story. Also I'd like to see a diff on the databases.
Artistic works have a "natural" copyright. (in the united states anyway). You could potentially argue that the schema of your database was a geeky but artistic work. (Layout of data structure, naming of tables etc.) or maybe some other feature of your app.
Anyone with some legal background agree, disagree??
Does anyone know how iPhone apps are licensed? If this Philip guy bought the app and the database was included with it, are there any terms that say he can't do whatever he wants with the database (e.g., use it for his own app)?
[+] [-] buro9|16 years ago|reply
I'd start off with talking to him. His website http://www.philipkirwan.ie/site/index.html states that he's doing an undergrad at Dublin City University, which no doubt includes lessons in the social aspect of computing including Copyright, Patents and Data Protection, etc.
My points: He will be well aware of copyright, and the institution really does not want to bring itself into disrepute as a result of the actions of their students. It would not do his study well at all to provable have stolen the work of someone else having been made very well aware of copyright during prior study. The question raised, "Is all of Philip Kirwin's work his own work?". And that for a university, and for Philip himself is a very big deal.
So I'd simply appeal to his own sense of self-preservation in that if he has indeed (as it appears) taken the content from your work and passed it off as his own then he is playing with fire that will burn him far greater than just losing the right to sell one iPhone application.
At this point, he's already potentially damaged his reputation through his actions, now it is up to him to determine whether he wants to salvage this or risk burning himself totally.
[+] [-] onoj|16 years ago|reply
Computing Dr Stephen Blott
Work Area: Head of School
[+] [-] andywar|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] foehammer|16 years ago|reply
Only studying a Bachelors degree. He'd definitely be aware of the legal positioning of copyright though.
Report him IMO. Rights Infringement.
[+] [-] andywar|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Padraig|16 years ago|reply
In the end, the leads fizzled out and I didn't get written permission to use the data from Dublin Bus. I continued to keep them up to date on it, hoping that they'd even call me up on it so that we could figure something out. My objective was to get at the data cleanly without having to scrape, and also to form a relationship that might allow me to use the upcoming real-time data.
As I mentioned in the post, there was no app available for this before mine. Dublin Bus website is a mess (they've updated it in the last few months, but it's still awful) and it's particularly awkward to use on a small screen.
They're a government owned company and others have pointed out that 'data' can't have a copyright, but I'm not really sure to be honest. I suspect they're aware of it and are choosing not to act since it's benefiting their service.
I would argue that this is a different issue to what this other developer has done: He has taken my schema and my translation of the data which is my own original work.
[+] [-] PatrickTulskie|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mahmud|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blantonl|16 years ago|reply
In my case, I run a Web services platform that approximately 10 or so iPhone app developers have licensed and coded applications to. In the beginning, there was only one app that used our services and it became a top-10 paid app. Within weeks I found there were 6 or so apps that sprouted up in the App Store with similar names, exact functionality, yet they were not licensed to use our API and content.
The common thread? They stole the original app's SQLite database, repackaged the interface, and off they went. We blocked these apps from using our platform until they were licensed, but to this day I weekly see apps sprout up that are following the same nefarious business practice. They steal content from a popular innovative app, repackage as their own, and throw it to the masses for the quick buck.
It is disgusting ecosystem. I'd be willing to bet that 80% of the app store content and market is teams stealing and repackaging the 20% of actual true innovation that is occurring.
[+] [-] wmeredith|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rbanffy|16 years ago|reply
Ever tried to make money with off-the-shelf software in the early 80's? ;-)
Well... At least, at that time, they had to swap floppies.
[+] [-] flashingpumpkin|16 years ago|reply
Can't give you any legal advice though. I reckon you should go after what others recommend here.
[+] [-] durana|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] viae|16 years ago|reply
What can you do with your app that isn't so easily stolen (and reproduced) and turned into a carbon copy? As you've already seen, public transit apps are a dime a dozen. How about a bigger/better itinerary application that includes trains, planes, and automobile times so that one can put an itinerary together of vacation travel across all of Ireland? Add hotel info, confirmation info, etc, etc, etc...
I don't have the links handy put there have been other articles on HN about lessons from stolen work. Big lesson: it rarely matters because the people stealing ideas and work don't have the skillset to do it themselves. In the long term they can't compete with the new features and directions that you'll go.
What I'm trying to say is, use that energy from your anger to create something fcking awesome that that stupid muppet won't be able to compete with.
* I'm from the US. Yesterday, I learned about the use of the word muppet over on that side of the pond. BRILLIANT!
[+] [-] Padraig|16 years ago|reply
I'm not sure that it's as clear cut as doing something that can't be easily copied — any iPhone app that stores data locally is vulnerable to this. (In fact, I'd advise other iPhone developers reading this to have a close look at any suspicious competitors). I'm cool with someone 'stealing the idea', just not when they go selling my implementation of it.
[+] [-] ajtaylor|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bensummers|16 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_right
In the EU, while the data itself may not be copyrightable, the act of compiling it into a usable database makes the database defensible.
[+] [-] dirtbox|16 years ago|reply
You're pretty much covered and you won't have to pay a penny.
[+] [-] xsmasher|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sfall|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] haasted|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xinsight|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jerguismi|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Padraig|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gabrielroth|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Luyt|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rbanffy|16 years ago|reply
With the added benefit of bring able to tell when someone else accesses your content by failing to supply a special request header.
I would start by trying to talk to him. If that didn't work, I would call his school and make them aware of their student's shady doings. Then I would go to Apple and point out Apple is helping this guy to infringe on your copyright (the database is comprised of public data, but your work compiling it is non-trivial).
If the data were kept on-line and cached in the client, you could, as a final step of escalation, render his app useless. Or worse: make it supply wrong routes.
[+] [-] Padraig|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JunkDNA|16 years ago|reply
I haven't looked at both apps, but I would venture to guess that someone who is cutting corners by stealing from other people is probably also not spending a whole lot of time on design, polish, and user experience. Those are things that are hard to copy effectively and a place where you can set yourself apart.
[+] [-] Tichy|16 years ago|reply
On the other hand, lawyers are costly and in the end might not be able to help. They are prone to suggesting the most expensive course of action, because they get a share of the worth of the case. At least in Germany.
[+] [-] acangiano|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] david|16 years ago|reply
also: look at the time of day on this screenshot: http://www.dublinbusapp.com/dbmaps/Dublin_Bus_Maps.html
[+] [-] tjic|16 years ago|reply
It is perfectly legal to go through a phone book and copy it.
[+] [-] swombat|16 years ago|reply
If I recall correctly, in fact, phone book producers usually include fake numbers in the phone book, so they can tell if you copied their version of the phone book, and sue you for it.
[+] [-] ig1|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tichy|16 years ago|reply
So far I have contacted apple and the designer of the graphics to clarify the rights (designers provided the graphics but I don't know where they are from). Not thrilled, but I can't imagine just letting that person get away with it.
Although what the other comment said certainly applies: the quality of the ripped off app seems rather low. He uses some of my icons, but the rest of it looks ugly.
Anyway, would be curious to hear how your story unfolds.
[+] [-] nym|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|16 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] thinkbohemian|16 years ago|reply
Anyone with some legal background agree, disagree??
[+] [-] pclark|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] durana|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] medianama|16 years ago|reply