I live in SF, and when I was dating my GF (now wife), she had an apt on a busy street (Oak Street); I live in an in-law garden unit. The first time I slept over at her place, I got barely any sleep. When she slept over at my place, all she heard was birds, leaves and the very occasional Harley or emergency vehicle. When she slept over, she woke up feeling so much better. So when it came time to move in together, there was no question where she wanted to be!
On that topic: I wish we could have acoustical limits on vehicle noise. Those loud motorcycles with the fat pipes: they seriously need to control those.
By control them, I hope you mean impound them, fine the owners tens of thousands of dollars ($1 for every ear they've assaulted should be enough), and permanently revoke their motorcycle license.
Those exhausts are already illegal, but the punishments are a joke and the enforcement is non-existent.
I also lived once in an apartment that was on a noisy street, I did all sorts of research on decibel limits in cities and briefly considered starting to record and trend using a decibel meter - then I remembered I have a day job.
At least in Seattle, there is an ordinance, but it isn't enforced often, and the most clear rules are some silly "if you can hear a sound system from 75 feet away from a car 'clearly'".
I reached out to the public non-emergency PR part of our police dept, essentially their summary was 2-fold, as I remember:
1. The most common noise enforcement calls were construction vehicles and semi trucks using jake brakes, both of which were a priority when there was opportunity to enforce (i.e. a pattern)
2. Many vehicles are very loud, whether legally authorized or not: sirens and emergency vehicles, Harley's, etc. Vehicle enforcement is rare. (They would not say never enforced, but that's the feeling I got)
In my opinion, the only thing louder than the motorcycles were all of the city buses. :(
Many municipalities have limits but find it difficult to control loud bikers because when the police attempt to stop them, they speed away dangerously. Enforcement needs to change, but it's likely difficult in the US where my understanding is tickets/suspensions can't be issued just based on who owns the vehicle, they have to be issued to who was operating the vehicle, which is much more difficult to prove without stopping the vehicle.
I moved to NYC a few months ago, from Long Island, and I have been experiencing morning headaches. If I look at my sleep logger app, I notice that after around 5-6 AM, my sleep quality goes way down and moves into mostly light sleep, almost no deep sleep or REM. There's definitely something to be said about how street noise affects our sleep patterns.
For me, I'll have to try using earplugs more, but the stress on my ears isn't so nice because I'm a side sleeper. I wish I could just go to bed earlier, but I work on a remote team which is half in LA, and it would be counterproductive if I wasn't able to stay up past 10-11 PM... not to mention my schedule would conflict with that of my friends and roommates.
Good luck with that. It's fairly common for riders to knock the baffles out of the tail pipes to intentionally make them louder. That's why police officers can be seen sticking their battons up those fat tail pipes as a check. Whatever new tech one could make will surely be circumvented too.
"On that topic: I wish we could have acoustical limits on vehicle noise."
I'm fairly certain there will be in your country. There are in the UK at least - it's a requirement that's supposedly checked when vehicles have their annual roadworthiness test. The problem is A) it's a subjective measure, open to the testers judgement and B) there's nothing stopping the owner re-tuning their vehicle before & after the test to get a pass. So ultimately, it's just not policed.
Let me preface this with "I do not have any data to back this up" but my gut tells me about 90% of road noise is caused by 10% of traffic. In London at least.
"Those loud motorcycles with the fat pipes: they seriously need to control those."
I'm totally with you on these, but really it's any of these two-stroke bastards, even mopeds these days. The fashion is to tune them to the point of nuisance.
Silence is extremely unsettling. At my parents' suburban home I need a window open or a fan running in the room or I have no chance of sleep. If the power goes out and the fan stops I wake up immediately. I've never slept better than with an open window at a Beale Street hotel in Nashville and street musicians below, or in downtown Chicago with the soothing rush of cars and sirens.
I just went through a fairly thorough soundproofing project for my apartment in SF. (If anyone has any questions or needs advice, I'm happy to help.)
Few things I learned: 1). It doesn't have to be expensive. My problem was that I live in a 2BR apartment with a wonderful roommate -- but we share a bedroom wall, and that wall is thin. So you can imagine the....awkwardness...at times.
I got quotes from various soundproofing specialists that ranged from $10k to $25k (!!!) to thicken the shared wall and reinforce the bedroom doors. Hogwash. I did some research, bought some raw materials (Green Glue, QuietRock sheetrock, solid-core doors, door seals) and did the whole thing for a fraction of that price.
2) Sound science is fascinating and DIY projects like this are kinda fun :) I've never been much of a DIYer around the home, but it takes on a whole new appeal when you have a clean end goal in mind and your quality of life takes a major improvement when the mission is completed.
Anyway -- this is a fascinating subject and I'm happy to geek out about it with anyone who's interested.
> air-conditioning units (which are basically unrestricted openings to the street)
Window air conditioning units are virtually unknown in a large part of the warm weather world. We use "split systems," where only a couple thin pipes and some wires connect the outdoors with the indoors. NYC's fascination with inefficient window units is really quite strange. I suppose landlords enjoy not having to pay for installation and maintenance of permanent units.
> NYC's fascination with inefficient window units is really quite strange. I suppose landlords enjoy not having to pay for installation and maintenance of permanent units.
Fascination is not the right word. As you correctly assert, landlords have no interest in installing permanent AC, so my window unit is my only option, and it isn't particularly fascinating.
Given that a window unit is on the order of hundreds to a thousand dollars (for a REALLY nice unit) and the permanent external/internal systems are on the order of $5-10k, I think the fascination is pretty obvious.
I looked into split system A/C when I moved to NYC. The gist is that attaching anything to outside of a "historical" building requires planning approval, complete with engineering drawings and a public hearing.
But hanging a window A/C out into the street? Somehow this does not affect historicity and so no approval is required.
I'm vague on whether the rules apply to non-street facing installations (I live at the back of my building), but I don't know if I can be bothered to spend the money to find out. So window A/C it is.
In NYC is it a thing to have the owner pay for heat for the whole complex via one giant efficient boiler in the basement, and the individual apartments cool by electricity they're separately billed for? This is not unusual in the midwest.
On one hand in my bachelor pad apartment a really bad August was like $40 of electricity for cooling, on the other hand times 40 apartments, I'm sure the owner would prefer "we" pay instead of him.
I'm from a warm climate part of the developing world and we got split units for a long time and the window ones are not really common due to inconvenience during the install process and despite their relative economic pricing to their competitors.
It's not necessarily only window units. Many apartments have in-wall units also. It would be cost prohibitive for most to close up a hole in a brick wall to install a split unit.
I just left a 3 story walk up with central air and I can say the during the summer the large roof mounted AC units (technically split systems as you describe them) drove me absolutely insane. The humming caused by multiple machines running made it almost impossible for me to stay at home and fall asleep.
I'm sure there are smart mechanical engineers working on vibration free AC units, but until then I'm looking for a house.
building laws, zoning, and history, all conspire here. Now new energy efficiency regulations may finally push the move to centralized or similar systems. Still the zoning restrictions tend to run into issues when more than two percent of a buildings space is classified as mechanical.
Also NYC does a lot of older structures that would be too costly to retrofit
Soundproofing can be extremely useful, but it's also expensive and unavailable for most tenants. Because it involves construction work, quality soundproofing can't happen without the consent of the landlord.
I think a lot of people are overlooking a solution that would improve quality of life: Make it easier to punish noisy people.
Even when I've lived near busy streets like Van Ness, most of my annoyances have come from inside the building, not outside. It's amazing how much grief a careless neighbor can inflict on the dozens around them. All it takes is a subwoofer and a taste for bass. Even if multiple neighbors complain, there's little that can be done. In my case, most of the neighbors –including myself– gave up and moved. Had the laws been more reasonable, the only one moving would be the cause of the nuisance.
Yup. Another thing is that many older NYC apartment buildings are built with paper thin walls/floors, which obviously has no easy fix. Another issue, especially for people who are just "passing through" the city is a lack of concern for others since they aren't around long. My current building, for example, has people moving in an out every 4-6 months. Hard for many to care when they view their apartment as a glorified hotel room.
The choices in these cases are passive-aggressive notes in the lobby, or direct confrontation at 3AM when the bass is pumping, which is what it usually comes down to, unfortunately.
Until I was 15 I lived in a house in Brooklyn on a residential but busy street close to a major commercial intersection. To this day I actually find external city sounds soothing - ambient traffic sounds, even police and fire engine sirens.
But for a good part of my adult life I lived in apartment buildings. Except where I was lucky (for example, living for a year in a top-floor Chicago apartment sharing a wall with an absentee neighbor), I've had many problems with inside-building noises due to other residents. I know well the subwoofer-bass problem, the sounds of a television traveling from the ceiling or floor, the sounds of footsteps and chairs scraping across the floor above. All horrible. But external city noises have mostly not been a problem.
Everyone has to make noise sometimes, and it's not just distasteful bass. Good luck succeeding in a noise complaint about a crying infant. I'd rather make it illegal to build paper-thin walls.
Wouldn't an epic startup idea be to build a ventilated, sound-proof, vibration-proof box for sleeping in and then sell it directly to consumers? I imagine it would be a hell of a lot cheaper than sound-proofing an entire house or having to move because of crappy neighbors and I'd sure as hell buy one if it existed. A device like that probably would have saved me from having to move from my last house under quite bad terms, plus imagine being able to have parties in your house and then being able to sleep when you get over it without having to wind down the whole party. There's probably multiple user-cases for such a device but I honestly don't know how practical this would be to build - acoustics != my field.
We have one of them in my office, it's uncanny how much noise they block.
I could see one of these being made in various bed sizes and have some integrated shelving & lighting to act as a nightstand. They have versions that look like hardwood panelling, they look pretty cool.
You could still get lots of sunlight since they are mostly window on two sides. I think they would need a side window version and a vertical window version depending on the orientation of windows in your bedroom.
It would solve one class of noise problems for sure!
There are companies that offer sound/vibration isolating chambers [0][1][2][3][4], typically they're geared toward audiometric testing or musicians. From what you are describing, you'd like something a little smaller, but even then they're going to be bulking, heavy and expensive if you want them to provide any reasonable attenuation.
A great idea if you spend most of your time outside and your house is like a hostel for you to have a bed to crash on but if you spend a good amount of your time at home or you have a famliy, it would make more sense to invest more in securing your house altogether and not only the bed or sleeping pod as you suggested.
Very hard sell. Most people love not sleeping in a box, and love their double or queen size beds.
And how would ventilation work? The box is powered, with its own climate control? What about safety such as waking suddenly in the dark and cracking your head on your sound proof box, or needing a quick exit in emergency?
Nobody wants a very large ugly thing in their small bedroom, used only sometimes. Can it be folded away? Unlikely.
Sorry, but a sound proof box for sleeping in is the worst idea I've heard in a long time!! Funny though. A better idea is noise cancelling headphones which can be worn in bed - soft, no hard edges or wires so can sleep on your side without issue.
Noise is one of the factors we considered in buying a house. Through some experiments, we derived some metrics. We realized that anything closer than .25 miles from a highway and we would hear the noise during rush hour. Also you didn't want to have a house right adjacent to any of the busy streets. Its amazing how when we walk just one house away from a busy street how much the noise is attenuated. The peace and quiet when sitting in your backyard is something to value.
We did similar experiments while looking for houses. One of the most surprising findings was that noise from the highway is much louder on cloudy days. Our theory was that clouds (or at least low altitude clouds) reflect noise back. It was strange to hear, quite clearly, highway noises from a mile away.
I live in a condo next to a highway. With trees, some double pane glass, concrete construction and who knows what else, I don't hear highway noise at all. When I open the porch window, it sounds like quiet background white noise.
I actually hear people coming in and out of the condo more than the highway.
> Sirens, rooftop fans, construction and upstairs neighbors who clomp about like a team of clog-dancing Clydesdales are common conditions of city living.
It's amazing how oblivious some people are to the fact that every step they take is actually a huge stomp. I'm surprised their ankles don't shatter from repeatedly hammering their full body weight down onto their heels.
Isn't it uncomfortable for them to use their heels like pistons? How does it not hurt?
And yet everyone wonders why many choose to commute and not live in a crowded city or next to a freeway.
The Bay Area is extremely noisy with most housing near major transit. Definitely a growing market for abatement services.
I don't know why you were downvoted - transportation noise is the major noise course in this USA and creates a lot of negative affects. We as a society need mechanized transportation to function as we do, but it creates some negative effects. At the risk of sounding self-serving, we need to do more to help reduce these effects, but noise control is waaaaaaaaaaay down the list of problems that are addressed in capital transportation projects.
Drunks are a big problem in my neighbourhood, especially on weekends. Last night I had to get up at 05:00 to tell a bunch of drunks to bugger off. They didn't like that, so they made more noise. Sigh.
As a owner of an apartment in Greenwhich village, noise-proofing windows is the extent to which I am allowed to modify my apartment. All else will involve appealing to the board, appeasing the neighbors during the construction phase and other headaches - not to mention the cost.
But these windows at about 500$ do a pretty good job.
Noise is a particularly complex topic (and spiral) here in NYC.
First, the housing stock is old. It’s hard to build new, mostly for zoning reasons. Old building will be more leaky and creaky.
Unlike most of the country, even new construction does not include central air, and often does not include central heating. They use wall units called PTACs, even in “luxury” buildings. These units are loud.
NYC is dense, which means each neighbor’s noise matters more, including our automotive “neighbors”.
That said, sirens are far and away the biggest problem. They are loud enough to distort in one’s own ears. Well over 100db at street level. Apartments are close to the street. And clogged streets means emergency vehicles move slowly, while screaming.
Reducing this outlier would be the single biggest win, even over car traffic, which is comparatively benign.
I dunno. I think garbage trucks at night are by far more annoying than sirens. Maybe it depends on your neighborhood? I really think that NYC should mandate electric garbage trucks.
I'm surprised how little focus there is on noise insulation for apartments. This does not seem to be a high priority for most apartment complexes being constructed. For example, most people seem to care more about the size of the apartment than whether or not it's quiet. Personally, I'd rather live in a quiet 500-square-foot apartment than a noisy 2000-square-foot one. But I guess I'm different from most people.
No one ever mentions this, but do you know what is almost as bad? The ocean. I have romantic ideas about living next to the beach. Worse than living next to a highway.
[+] [-] discardorama|10 years ago|reply
I live in SF, and when I was dating my GF (now wife), she had an apt on a busy street (Oak Street); I live in an in-law garden unit. The first time I slept over at her place, I got barely any sleep. When she slept over at my place, all she heard was birds, leaves and the very occasional Harley or emergency vehicle. When she slept over, she woke up feeling so much better. So when it came time to move in together, there was no question where she wanted to be!
On that topic: I wish we could have acoustical limits on vehicle noise. Those loud motorcycles with the fat pipes: they seriously need to control those.
[+] [-] darksaints|10 years ago|reply
Those exhausts are already illegal, but the punishments are a joke and the enforcement is non-existent.
[+] [-] jeffwilcox|10 years ago|reply
At least in Seattle, there is an ordinance, but it isn't enforced often, and the most clear rules are some silly "if you can hear a sound system from 75 feet away from a car 'clearly'".
I reached out to the public non-emergency PR part of our police dept, essentially their summary was 2-fold, as I remember:
1. The most common noise enforcement calls were construction vehicles and semi trucks using jake brakes, both of which were a priority when there was opportunity to enforce (i.e. a pattern) 2. Many vehicles are very loud, whether legally authorized or not: sirens and emergency vehicles, Harley's, etc. Vehicle enforcement is rare. (They would not say never enforced, but that's the feeling I got)
In my opinion, the only thing louder than the motorcycles were all of the city buses. :(
[+] [-] colanderman|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] great_kraken|10 years ago|reply
For me, I'll have to try using earplugs more, but the stress on my ears isn't so nice because I'm a side sleeper. I wish I could just go to bed earlier, but I work on a remote team which is half in LA, and it would be counterproductive if I wasn't able to stay up past 10-11 PM... not to mention my schedule would conflict with that of my friends and roommates.
[+] [-] tahssa|10 years ago|reply
Good luck with that. It's fairly common for riders to knock the baffles out of the tail pipes to intentionally make them louder. That's why police officers can be seen sticking their battons up those fat tail pipes as a check. Whatever new tech one could make will surely be circumvented too.
[+] [-] ris|10 years ago|reply
I'm fairly certain there will be in your country. There are in the UK at least - it's a requirement that's supposedly checked when vehicles have their annual roadworthiness test. The problem is A) it's a subjective measure, open to the testers judgement and B) there's nothing stopping the owner re-tuning their vehicle before & after the test to get a pass. So ultimately, it's just not policed.
Let me preface this with "I do not have any data to back this up" but my gut tells me about 90% of road noise is caused by 10% of traffic. In London at least.
"Those loud motorcycles with the fat pipes: they seriously need to control those."
I'm totally with you on these, but really it's any of these two-stroke bastards, even mopeds these days. The fashion is to tune them to the point of nuisance.
[+] [-] superuser2|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tharkun|10 years ago|reply
I'm guessing you meant on account of the noise. And weren't referring to a great next of sexy fun.
[+] [-] nlh|10 years ago|reply
Few things I learned: 1). It doesn't have to be expensive. My problem was that I live in a 2BR apartment with a wonderful roommate -- but we share a bedroom wall, and that wall is thin. So you can imagine the....awkwardness...at times.
I got quotes from various soundproofing specialists that ranged from $10k to $25k (!!!) to thicken the shared wall and reinforce the bedroom doors. Hogwash. I did some research, bought some raw materials (Green Glue, QuietRock sheetrock, solid-core doors, door seals) and did the whole thing for a fraction of that price.
2) Sound science is fascinating and DIY projects like this are kinda fun :) I've never been much of a DIYer around the home, but it takes on a whole new appeal when you have a clean end goal in mind and your quality of life takes a major improvement when the mission is completed.
Anyway -- this is a fascinating subject and I'm happy to geek out about it with anyone who's interested.
[+] [-] jzwinck|10 years ago|reply
> air-conditioning units (which are basically unrestricted openings to the street)
Window air conditioning units are virtually unknown in a large part of the warm weather world. We use "split systems," where only a couple thin pipes and some wires connect the outdoors with the indoors. NYC's fascination with inefficient window units is really quite strange. I suppose landlords enjoy not having to pay for installation and maintenance of permanent units.
[+] [-] untog|10 years ago|reply
Fascination is not the right word. As you correctly assert, landlords have no interest in installing permanent AC, so my window unit is my only option, and it isn't particularly fascinating.
[+] [-] tw04|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacques_chester|10 years ago|reply
But hanging a window A/C out into the street? Somehow this does not affect historicity and so no approval is required.
I'm vague on whether the rules apply to non-street facing installations (I live at the back of my building), but I don't know if I can be bothered to spend the money to find out. So window A/C it is.
[+] [-] VLM|10 years ago|reply
On one hand in my bachelor pad apartment a really bad August was like $40 of electricity for cooling, on the other hand times 40 apartments, I'm sure the owner would prefer "we" pay instead of him.
[+] [-] gotchange|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wiiittttt|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] compactmani|10 years ago|reply
I'm sure there are smart mechanical engineers working on vibration free AC units, but until then I'm looking for a house.
[+] [-] Shivetya|10 years ago|reply
Also NYC does a lot of older structures that would be too costly to retrofit
[+] [-] ggreer|10 years ago|reply
I think a lot of people are overlooking a solution that would improve quality of life: Make it easier to punish noisy people.
Even when I've lived near busy streets like Van Ness, most of my annoyances have come from inside the building, not outside. It's amazing how much grief a careless neighbor can inflict on the dozens around them. All it takes is a subwoofer and a taste for bass. Even if multiple neighbors complain, there's little that can be done. In my case, most of the neighbors –including myself– gave up and moved. Had the laws been more reasonable, the only one moving would be the cause of the nuisance.
[+] [-] Futurebot|10 years ago|reply
The choices in these cases are passive-aggressive notes in the lobby, or direct confrontation at 3AM when the bass is pumping, which is what it usually comes down to, unfortunately.
[+] [-] richardfontana|10 years ago|reply
But for a good part of my adult life I lived in apartment buildings. Except where I was lucky (for example, living for a year in a top-floor Chicago apartment sharing a wall with an absentee neighbor), I've had many problems with inside-building noises due to other residents. I know well the subwoofer-bass problem, the sounds of a television traveling from the ceiling or floor, the sounds of footsteps and chairs scraping across the floor above. All horrible. But external city noises have mostly not been a problem.
[+] [-] nitrogen|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Uptrenda|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mahyarm|10 years ago|reply
https://i.imgur.com/B330JkX.jpg
We have one of them in my office, it's uncanny how much noise they block.
I could see one of these being made in various bed sizes and have some integrated shelving & lighting to act as a nightstand. They have versions that look like hardwood panelling, they look pretty cool.
You could still get lots of sunlight since they are mostly window on two sides. I think they would need a side window version and a vertical window version depending on the orientation of windows in your bedroom.
It would solve one class of noise problems for sure!
[+] [-] tomjakubowski|10 years ago|reply
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/hmzybk/nathan-for-you-hotel-se...
[+] [-] Anechoic|10 years ago|reply
[0] http://www.iac-acoustics.com/us/soundproof-rooms-and-booths/
[1] http://www.wengercorp.com/sound-isolation/index.php
[2] http://www.whisperroom.com/sound-booth-applications-practice
[3] DIY solution: http://www.soundproofing.org/infopages/portable_sound_contro...
[4] http://www.gretchken.com/sound_booths.htm
[+] [-] gotchange|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dazc|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] exodust|10 years ago|reply
And how would ventilation work? The box is powered, with its own climate control? What about safety such as waking suddenly in the dark and cracking your head on your sound proof box, or needing a quick exit in emergency?
Nobody wants a very large ugly thing in their small bedroom, used only sometimes. Can it be folded away? Unlikely.
Sorry, but a sound proof box for sleeping in is the worst idea I've heard in a long time!! Funny though. A better idea is noise cancelling headphones which can be worn in bed - soft, no hard edges or wires so can sleep on your side without issue.
[+] [-] ZenoArrow|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rco8786|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tomp|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grubles|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pkaye|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gniv|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mahyarm|10 years ago|reply
I actually hear people coming in and out of the condo more than the highway.
[+] [-] bubalus|10 years ago|reply
It's amazing how oblivious some people are to the fact that every step they take is actually a huge stomp. I'm surprised their ankles don't shatter from repeatedly hammering their full body weight down onto their heels.
Isn't it uncomfortable for them to use their heels like pistons? How does it not hurt?
[+] [-] whoiskevin|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Anechoic|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pervycreeper|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ratsimihah|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tharkun|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] somberi|10 years ago|reply
But these windows at about 500$ do a pretty good job.
[+] [-] mwsherman|10 years ago|reply
First, the housing stock is old. It’s hard to build new, mostly for zoning reasons. Old building will be more leaky and creaky.
Unlike most of the country, even new construction does not include central air, and often does not include central heating. They use wall units called PTACs, even in “luxury” buildings. These units are loud.
NYC is dense, which means each neighbor’s noise matters more, including our automotive “neighbors”.
That said, sirens are far and away the biggest problem. They are loud enough to distort in one’s own ears. Well over 100db at street level. Apartments are close to the street. And clogged streets means emergency vehicles move slowly, while screaming.
Reducing this outlier would be the single biggest win, even over car traffic, which is comparatively benign.
[+] [-] thrownaway2424|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jensen123|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] schwarz|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jinushaun|10 years ago|reply