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richmt | 10 years ago

I see stronglifts 5x5 recommended a lot on sites like reddit and generally disagree that beginners should start out with it.

From what I've read online, the 5x5 structure often leads to quicker stalling in progression for some than doing 3x5 like starting strength has you do for squat, overhead, and bench.

Also, some people really don't need to start as light as SL will have you starting on. Anecdotally, a friend of mine with an athletic background says when he starting weight training for college sports, he could bench over 200lbs for one rep having never seriously trained before. Starting with just the bar like SL recommends would be a big stall in his progress. On SL it'd take him about 53 weeks to bench 200 for 5x5 if starting with the bar and increasing by 2.5 pounds each bench exercise (1.5 times per week).

Also, Mehdi has no proper training in the background. Someone like Rippetoe, author of starting strength, has years of experience in powerlifting and coaching.

Quick article for further reading.

http://www.powerliftingtowin.com/stronglifts-5x5/

It mostly looks at SL from a powerlifting perspective, but much of the criticism is still valid.

discuss

order

jmilloy|10 years ago

In general Starting Strength is a great resource. I love the directness and simplicity in focusing on a few key lifts, though I wish it included a barbell row. The difference between 5x5 and 3x5 is pretty small. Both Stronglifts and Starting Strength are for novices and can be used as resources together without issue!

For specifics, Mehdi doesn't insist everyone start at bar weight. From the site:

> If you’ve done the Squat, Bench and Deadlift before, with good technique, you can start with 50% of your five rep max.

It's worthwhile for any novice lifter (or someone getting back into lifting after a long hiatus) to start low in order to (re)develop form and strengthen support muscles. Mehdi describes what to do when you stall, and points out that once you're stalling with any regularity, then you're not a novice and Stronglifts is not really for you. If you stick with it, at some similar point neither 3x5 or 5x5 will work, and you'll need to switch to something like 5/3/1.

presidentender|10 years ago

SL 5x5 recommends a perfectly sane method to deal with stalling - deload, work back up to the stall weight, and repeat until deloading no longer breaks the plateau, and then move to a 5x3 rep scheme like Starting Strength, and then (after another plateau) to 3x3.

Starting with greater volume gives the beginner more time to work on form.

Furthermore, if a lifter already has some training, it can absolutely make sense to increase the weight from the recommended start with the empty bar. Do 5x5, and if you have any left in the tank, add reps to the last set. If you get a set of 10, then increase the weight by 10 lbs on the next workout instead of 5. If you try to estimate an effective working weight, you're apt to overestimate, and end up plateauing too early.

jonesb6|10 years ago

I'd counter that even though 3x5 leads to faster progression, in beginners it will lead to poor form.

I don't think beginners should be pushing a high squat number if they don't squat properly. This goes double for more "dangerous" lifts like deadlift etc.

As someone who started early in life, I'd recommend a "workout progression" of 3x10 -> 3x5 -> 3x8 -> 3x5, with the 3x8 usually representing a "cutting" cycle (caloric deficit focusing on fat loss, with lifting thrown in to maintain current number as much as possible). First you learn form, then push for numbers, then push for leaner muscle, then push for numbers again.

To each his own, but form is important!

amorphid|10 years ago

I am not an athletic person, and I tend to space out mid activity. Learning proper form, and keeping it, make lifting heavy weights not fun. Lifting is not for everyone.

slaunchwise|10 years ago

>> To each his own, but form is important!

absolutely.

wh-uws|10 years ago

As someone who has done both routines I would still recommend actually doing the stronglifts program first.

Several reasons

1. they are bascially identical except one starts with a warm up and has you do 3x5 and the other the warm up and 5x5.

2. The major difference between them though is strong lifts switches out the beginner starting strength's power clean with a barbell row.

The power clean is really hard to get right without coaching. Everything else you can watch youtube videos for and do fairly well.

Sources:

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Program

http://stronglifts.com/5x5/

3. Stronglifts has a great app for iOS and Android that makes it dead simple to track your progress. I'm still looking for one as good and focused for starting strength.

By all means once you get to a decent weight on all the lifts reassess you routine but I think stronglifts is a better starting point for absolute beginners.

jmilloy|10 years ago

I thought about this some more, and much of the criticism in the article boils down to preferring more deadlifts and fewer squats. Stronglifts argues that you'll be doing so many squats that you won't need more deadlifts, and that doing more will cause you to stall unnecessarily. The article suggests you want more deadlifts, and to cut back on the squats so you won't stall unnecessarily.

Given your goals and which lifts you prefer, I think it's totally reasonable to trade out some squats for deadlifts.

k__|10 years ago

How about hypertrophy? Can I simply do 5x5 with 10-12 reps per set and switch the focus from strength away?

richmt|10 years ago

Unfortunately I don't know much about hypertrophy training, so I may be wrong with a few of the things I'm about to say.

I think that yes, higher reps at lower weight in the 8-12 rep range will generally target hypertrophy more than strength. You wouldn't necessarily want to do a strength program with higher reps to build hypertrophy however, as things like recovery will differ at higher ranges. I want to say that there would be diminishing returns fast if you only did compound exercises at high rep ranges.

I also see many hypertrophy programs will incorporate more exercises which isolate muscles at higher rep ranges than strength programs. I'm sure that this has to do with recovery, since you'll often see split programs like PPL (push pull legs) which offer more days in the gym split up between different muscle groups.

raverbashing|10 years ago

Not really

Because those exercises are "not made" for hypertrophy. Of course they will cause some hypertrophy due to the natural process of overcompensation

But a lifting regime like that is a bit apart from a hypertrophy program which usually involves more isolated exercises

(btw 5x5 means 5 sets of 5 reps each, so if you try to replace that with 12 reps you're taking the program in another direction)

It depends on what you find more adaptable, really.