It is such a shame, really. I live in the UK and my wife is Armenian. There have been many times where we would have liked to go to France, or Holland, or Germany, for a long weekend. Likely spending hundreds of pounds as tourists. Yet the absurd process and cost for her is just not worth it, so we don't go, and the tourism economy suffers. I will never understand how the visa nonsense got so out of control, and continues to do so. Truly one of the more illogical rules in existence.
--EDIT-- I will add that it wouldn't be so bad if we could go through the process once every couple years or so and get a multiple entry Shengen visa - but that would make too much sense and be too easy, so you need to provide the paperwork, pay the fee, and wait 2 to 4 weeks, every time for a single entry. Crazy bullshit.
Are you a British citizen? It is not well known (including by officials and airlines) you have the right that your wife can join you on your travels. As an Armenian citizen she needs a visa but that has to be provided free of charge and under an accelerated procedure (often it takes under 24 hours). You do not need to go through the otherwise required visa agencies and they cannot ask for documents other than passports and the marriage certificates – although they often do if you don't insist. Theoretically it can even be applied for directly at the border but that might be a bit stressful.
I'd add that airport security and passport controls are also deterring me from travelling. I have very little appetite for standing for 45min+ in a queue and when you travel international now, you do many of those (security, passports out, passports in and all again on the way back). I don't know if many are like me but I am limiting my travelling to the strict minimum because of that.
Same for me. I rather travel by train/bus instead of feeling like a fucking terrorist every time I want to board a flight.
Also, the time saving on national flights is negligible. For example, Munich to Hamburg takes 6 hours via train and 1.5 hours via airplane. Then add transport from Munich Hauptbahnhof to the airport (45min if you're lucky), and from Hamburg Airport to Hauptbahnhof (25min). Another 45min for security controls, checkin, boarding, baggage retrieval... 3.5h minimum. And you don't have (fast) Wifi or 230V on the plane, and it's cramped.
Only upside of taking an airplane: no. fucking. loud. kids. (because parents do manage to keep their kids under control on a plane, in contrast to a train)
I don't know. When the flight is 12 hours, 45 minutes on either side isn't such a big deal. I did get stuck in a 4 hour immigration line at Heathrow once...I'll just avoid the UK from now on.
"Britain ... requires visa applicants to fill in a ten-page form, provide a list of every foreign trip over the past decade and declare that they have never incited terrorism to boot. This is absurd. ... America’s visa-waiver programme allows citizens of 28 countries to visit by filling out a simple online form with basic personal information."
28 countries are in the US's VWP. 56 countries (plus all EU countries) are in the UK's visa-free entry list. So, the article is not comparing like with like.
They may be trying to make the point that there are alternatives that help to prevent unwanted entrants without being burdensome. While ESTA is overbearing in the context of travel from Britain to the US, it would be a welcome relief to visa applicants from India or China.
Some of the intellectual energy that fueled the momentum of globalization has abated. Of course, the corporations are still 100% in favor of free movement of goods and capital (and certain people, including business executives and poor peasants who will work on farms in the wealthy nations). The corporations still provide much of the energy for maintaining relatively free movement of goods, capital and some people.
But consider the intellectual energy that drove the creation of the European Coal and Steel Community in 1951 or the Maastricht Treaty in 1992, or the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade in 1994. At that time, Western elites seemed unified in their belief that open borders would benefit everyone.
Since that time, a host of concerns has arisen. Some are security related. Others are about the uneven effects of attempts at monetary union (broadly speaking, this includes not just Europe, but also nations like Argentina that attempted to peg their currency to another currency (such as the USA dollar)). Some are about currency manipulation (first Japan, then Taiwan, and then, much more sensationally, China). And the rise of wealth inequality in all the developed nations.
It's possible that globalization could be restructured in a way that brings benefits to everyone. But first there would have to be a long conversation about all the ways it is now failing.
I worked in a job where i was in charge of getting Visas for some of our employees (most of them U.S. citizens) for various countries all over the world. I had never done that previously but i quickly became an expert.
Let me tell you, the countries that have the most fucked up economies are the ones with the craziest Visa procedures. One would think that they are happy that Tourists and Businesses are coming to spend $$$ in their country. Crazy long forms, crazy document requirements, stupid turnaround times and zero support - there is nerver a number or a email if you have any questions regarding a form or edge case. It really is a pain and beyond crazy.
Yes, there are two things going on there... firstly, their economies are fucked up because they have inefficient and ineffective bureaucracies. Secondly, visa requirements between countries are typically more or less reciprocal, so because developed countries impose a heavy burden on travellers from those countries, they return the favor. In many cases, they'll have visa-free or less hassle for citizens of neighboring fucked up countries.
You mentioned that this is for U.S. citizens, so you're more or less just dealing with a reflection of the U.S. visa burden imposed on those same countries :)
This looks like an excellent place to whine about having to cancel a holiday to Tehran because it would mean losing my visa-free travel to 'merica. Hold exclusively a British passport.
As someone who's never had visa free travel to the US in the first place, this is some good Schadenfreude.
Frankly I think you should still visit Iran and just get a US tourist visa like the rest of the us. US tourist visas are good for multiple entries and only expire after 10 years, so it's not as bad as most European countries.
Frankly the idea of a NATO country not part of the visa waiver is absurd. If the citizens of a country are worthy enough for the USA to be ready to send its youth in their defense, they probably are ok to enter USA without visa.
Does nobody read the article before it get's published? For me a whole paragraph (beginning with "The most sensible response") is twice in the article.
I can see what the article states happening. When I was in Sweden as an exchange student all the Chinese exchange students were travelling around Europe. But not to the UK, because of the additional visa requirement.
I'm not sure who your claim is targeted at, but I read the whole article before commenting. The assumption of sensibility in immigration and border control agencies is laughable.
I didn't get much of a sense that anybody was being deterred by visa requirements. Pissed off, maybe, but let's say you're a business with a potentially lucrative and growing market in a foreign country? Are you going to suspend plans or operations because it's annoying and expensive to get a visa? Like hell. Same goes for tourists. If you have your heart set on seeing the Pyramids but get frustrated at the Egyptian visa process, are you really willing to settle for, say, Lebanon?
> If you have your heart set on seeing the Pyramids but get frustrated at the Egyptian visa process, are you really willing to settle for, say, Lebanon?
No, but I'm probably willing to settle for Germany or France. It's pretty rare for me to have my heart set on somewhere. There are many things I want to see, and if one country feels like being a pain in the neck, I'll just go see something else, or go somewhere to do something else.
I'm not sure whether most tourists are more like me or more like the heart set on kind of folks. But, even assuming that they're of the heart set on kind, once you've seen the pyramids it's less likely to drag you back through the bothersome process again. One would imagine a bothersome process somewhat decreases your opportunity for repeat business.
What reasons are there for complicated visa processes? Tracking entry/exit to/from the country can be done in a significantly more efficient way, and there's no economic upside to adding expenses to business trips or tourism.
This is one of many reasons that Nations as a concept are rapidly becoming obsolete and will eventually be forgotten once there isn't enough profit in them.
A big part of the general population has their personal identities closely tied with their country (it's known as patriotism). We'll need to find a good substitute for that before trying to obsolete nation states.
Case in point - a lot of EU citizens, politicians in European Parliament included, feel that the whole Union business is about robbing them out of national identity, and therefore do their best to sabotage the entire effort. Maybe the young generation will feel different about it though; as the world gets more interconnected, younger people seem to care less and less about nations.
There is ample "profit" to be made in each individual state, so I don't see that happening anytime soon. If you solve the "problems" of protectionism and globalization, then you might just get to a point where the concept of "multiple nation states" could become obsolete.
[+] [-] binarymax|10 years ago|reply
--EDIT-- I will add that it wouldn't be so bad if we could go through the process once every couple years or so and get a multiple entry Shengen visa - but that would make too much sense and be too easy, so you need to provide the paperwork, pay the fee, and wait 2 to 4 weeks, every time for a single entry. Crazy bullshit.
[+] [-] germanier|10 years ago|reply
Here is a handy guide by the EU commission http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/faq/freetravel/doc/guide_20...
If you are not an EU citizen, yes it's tough. Although they should give out multi-entry visa after she had one once or twice.
[+] [-] mjburgess|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] freakz|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cm2187|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mschuster91|10 years ago|reply
Also, the time saving on national flights is negligible. For example, Munich to Hamburg takes 6 hours via train and 1.5 hours via airplane. Then add transport from Munich Hauptbahnhof to the airport (45min if you're lucky), and from Hamburg Airport to Hauptbahnhof (25min). Another 45min for security controls, checkin, boarding, baggage retrieval... 3.5h minimum. And you don't have (fast) Wifi or 230V on the plane, and it's cramped.
Only upside of taking an airplane: no. fucking. loud. kids. (because parents do manage to keep their kids under control on a plane, in contrast to a train)
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] rahimnathwani|10 years ago|reply
"Britain ... requires visa applicants to fill in a ten-page form, provide a list of every foreign trip over the past decade and declare that they have never incited terrorism to boot. This is absurd. ... America’s visa-waiver programme allows citizens of 28 countries to visit by filling out a simple online form with basic personal information."
28 countries are in the US's VWP. 56 countries (plus all EU countries) are in the UK's visa-free entry list. So, the article is not comparing like with like.
[+] [-] gotchange|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cgillesp|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lkrubner|10 years ago|reply
But consider the intellectual energy that drove the creation of the European Coal and Steel Community in 1951 or the Maastricht Treaty in 1992, or the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade in 1994. At that time, Western elites seemed unified in their belief that open borders would benefit everyone.
Since that time, a host of concerns has arisen. Some are security related. Others are about the uneven effects of attempts at monetary union (broadly speaking, this includes not just Europe, but also nations like Argentina that attempted to peg their currency to another currency (such as the USA dollar)). Some are about currency manipulation (first Japan, then Taiwan, and then, much more sensationally, China). And the rise of wealth inequality in all the developed nations.
It's possible that globalization could be restructured in a way that brings benefits to everyone. But first there would have to be a long conversation about all the ways it is now failing.
[+] [-] sauere|10 years ago|reply
Let me tell you, the countries that have the most fucked up economies are the ones with the craziest Visa procedures. One would think that they are happy that Tourists and Businesses are coming to spend $$$ in their country. Crazy long forms, crazy document requirements, stupid turnaround times and zero support - there is nerver a number or a email if you have any questions regarding a form or edge case. It really is a pain and beyond crazy.
[+] [-] tacostakohashi|10 years ago|reply
You mentioned that this is for U.S. citizens, so you're more or less just dealing with a reflection of the U.S. visa burden imposed on those same countries :)
[+] [-] peteretep|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] klipt|10 years ago|reply
Frankly I think you should still visit Iran and just get a US tourist visa like the rest of the us. US tourist visas are good for multiple entries and only expire after 10 years, so it's not as bad as most European countries.
[+] [-] jakozaur|10 years ago|reply
I think all parties would benefit if USA would add a few more countries to Visa Waiver Program like Poland, Bulgaria, Rumania and Croatia.
[+] [-] venomsnake|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] legulere|10 years ago|reply
I can see what the article states happening. When I was in Sweden as an exchange student all the Chinese exchange students were travelling around Europe. But not to the UK, because of the additional visa requirement.
[+] [-] logicchains|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] binarymax|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rm_-rf_slash|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 6d0debc071|10 years ago|reply
No, but I'm probably willing to settle for Germany or France. It's pretty rare for me to have my heart set on somewhere. There are many things I want to see, and if one country feels like being a pain in the neck, I'll just go see something else, or go somewhere to do something else.
I'm not sure whether most tourists are more like me or more like the heart set on kind of folks. But, even assuming that they're of the heart set on kind, once you've seen the pyramids it's less likely to drag you back through the bothersome process again. One would imagine a bothersome process somewhat decreases your opportunity for repeat business.
[+] [-] dawnbreez|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FussyZeus|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TeMPOraL|10 years ago|reply
Case in point - a lot of EU citizens, politicians in European Parliament included, feel that the whole Union business is about robbing them out of national identity, and therefore do their best to sabotage the entire effort. Maybe the young generation will feel different about it though; as the world gets more interconnected, younger people seem to care less and less about nations.
[+] [-] zo1|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] davidw|10 years ago|reply