1) In response to the "know yourself" bullet: I met my now wife at 15 - we learned a lot about ourselves between then and when we married at age 22. But we were pretty much committed to marrying by age 18, even though we learned a lot after. You can learn with another person.
2) Life pro tip on understanding other people (this is a quick reinforcement of a bunch of points in the article): if someone is behaving irrationally, 99% of the time its because they are subconciously insecure about something.
3) The odds of first marriage are better than 50/50. That statistic is for total marriages, but people who divorce once on average divorce multiple times. Success rate of first marriage is something like 65%. Also, that success rate goes higher if you're high income, like most of HN.
The odds of first marriage are better than 50/50. That statistic is for total marriages, but people who divorce once on average divorce multiple times. Success rate of first marriage is something like 65%. Also, that success rate goes higher if you're high income, like most of HN.
Yes, thanks, I was about to post the same thing. Also divorce rates are lower among college graduates (which is correlated with income of course).
Your #1 hits home for me. Similar timeframe -- met at 16, married at 23, have been married happily for 7 years. We aren't the same people as when we first started dating.
It's hard for me to argue, rationally, that I happened to meet my one-and-only soulmate in high school. I think I got lucky because I married someone who valued marriage the same way I do. We both consider the marriage itself to be more important than either of us individually. We both came from stable families, so we have good examples to follow. It might not sound romantic, but we both could have probably committed fully to any number of people. As it stands, we committed to each other and the sum is greater than the parts.
I know other people are in tough situations, and I'm not saying that everyone should just "suck it up." I just think that marriages are more resilient when each person is secure in the knowledge that the other isn't considering leaving. It's hard to commit fully if divorce is an option on the table. When your thinking goes in that direction, you start resenting your partner for depriving you of that other life.
> 2) Life pro tip on understanding other people (this is a quick reinforcement of a bunch of points in the article): if someone is behaving irrationally, 99% of the time its because they are subconciously insecure about something.
How about the possibility that they are tired of their partner? The irrationality might come from the fact that they are bound to them (e.g. marriage) and feel pressure to not break that apart. That'd be quite an internal conflict, and might produce irrational behavior.
If this is a possible explanation (I've seen it many times at least), do you really think it's an only 1% of the time cause? I think that's being unrealistically optimistic. Because then your narrative sounds very convenient and comforting: "Oh, I just have to help them get over their insecurities and it's happily ever after." Not to be a downer, but I think people need to be more realistic about these things so they have better odds of finding a partner with which they have a good dynamic.
(It's kind of like being stuck at a job you don't like, but you need the money. That's bad for both the employee and the business.)
This is one of those cases where evidence instead of supposition helps a lot.
> The odds of first marriage are better than 50/50
That depends on a shocking number of variables. For example, http://www.maselliwarren.com/2014/03/20/divorce-rates-increa... "60 percent of marriages for couples between the ages of 20 and 25 end in divorce. For couples who are even younger, the prognosis becomes bleaker still."
There was another source citing evidence that too much relationship experience prior to marriage can confound marriage happiness somewhat, but it was from a Christian (and therefore biased and/or scientifically suspect) source. Here's something more scientific:
Yes, same goes for my brother, but I don't know how much of it relies on premise, that they can't live without each other anymore, because their life's are so entangled.
I mean he is 31 and they came together when he was 16 and she was 15. They experienced their whole adult life together. They split for about 4 months but came together again, probably because of this.
On the other hand, I'm the complete opposite, so it's hard for me to understand.
I had my first relationship with 19 and we were together only one year. I'm 30 now and had about 7 relationships. Right now I have my two longest relationships of 2 and 2,5 years.
Maybe it's a good thing to get together with 15, so you make the most important experiences in life together, to weld you together more strongly.
When I started dating with 19 I already had many expectations and a own life, which needed another person to fit in somehow. And most didn't...
Here's an uncomfortable thought: an effective 1-to-1 mapping between men and women probably doesn't exist.
The fact of the matter is that women are primarily interested in a top smaller percentage of high value men (this is called hypergamy). This smaller group of desirable men would most like to have multiple mates (this is called polygamy). Marriage, and the accompanying culture and customs, 'corrects' this by trying to create a 1-to-1 mapping. Both extreme strategies described are traditionally shamed and discouraged.
Why? Because marriage (monogamous long-term bonding) is good for society. It incentivizes the largest amount of people to be productive, and reduces civil unrest by distributing sexual access to women across as many men as possible. For more on sex and society, check out J.D. Unwin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._D._Unwin
Now, how this relates to the OP. The fact of the matter is that people become unhappy in a relationship of any kind when they think they are getting the short end of the stick, and could be doing better. They'll rationalize it six ways to Sunday, "my partner doesn't understand me", "my partner smothers me", "they don't do enough chores", "we don't understand ourselves", whatever, but at the end of the day they think they ought to have a better mate, and are fed up with their current one!
This is especially true of women, who, by pure numerical inevitability, largely marry below what they would prefer. We know that women initiate most divorces too, at ~70% (fun fact: among college-eduated couples, that number rises to 90%). A smaller amount of men end up locked to one person too, when they know in another world they could have more mates. Such are the sacrifices for the monogamous society (often referred to as patriarchal, because women are more sexually restricted).
So in conclusion, what bothers me about articles like this, who delve deep into rationalizations instead of simple mate value and attractiveness, is the implication of a 1-to-1 mapping between men and women. Is there a right person to marry, for most people? Probably not.
"The fact of the matter is that people become unhappy in a relationship of any kind when they think they are getting the short end of the stick, and could be doing better."
This is such a pithy statement, used with such simple compelling force, that I applaud it even while disagreeing. Some points that counter this message:
1) What percentage of partners that end up leaving the marriage do so with another partner lined up?
2) Of the percentage that do not - a sizable set I would assume - how many exited after long-term (years?) relationships?
3) Of the percentage that did - another sizable set I would assume - what caused the reasoning process to take so long? Why didn't they conclude they could do better earlier?
I would argue most people go into marriage with at least some amount of good faith effort to make it last. Why do they make such a good faith effort in the first place if they are operating as you would say?
>but at the end of the day they think they ought to have a better mate, and are fed up with their current one
I don't know if this is true across the board. I don't feel that way entirely, more along the lines of "I'm stuck in this situation; kids, a marriage where I get no real benefit, I just want to be free and do what I want and not have to bow to their whims."
I know several people, right now, that have been divorced for some time (5+ years, and in one case 10+ years) and don't even date or have interest in dating. Their motivations seem aligned more with mine than wanting a better mate - In fact, If I end up getting a divorce (we have agreed to try and work it out, again), I have no interest in dating again, at least not for a while.
FWIW, I'm 38, and the people I'm referencing are older than me, some as much as 12+ years older, so maybe it's an age thing.
Yes, monogamy is usually framed as being good for women and detrimental to men when in fact it's been invented so that non-alpha males could mate; in a "natural" world, most (all) women would mate with the alpha male of the group, and all other males would not mate at all.
Therefore it shouldn't be unexpected that women who didn't get to marry the alpha male, are unhappy and eventually want out.
Your same arguments apply in the other direction, you know. It's not just women interested in the most desireable men, it's also that men are interested in the most desirable women.
In practice biologically, sure, you're right, but it's tough to look beyond the tribal-cultural ingrainment of marriage into people's psyches... sure, people may always fantasize about doing better than they currently are, but in how many people will those thoughts turn into actions?
There's too many contented or at least not actively dissatisfied people to support the idea you're discussing in practice, though I agree it's theoretically plausible.
Rather than a question of sexual access relative to resources, I'd reframe it for the 21st century as a mutual understanding of shared needs and shared solutions to those needs. Sure, not everyone can fill every need for every other person, but it's probably better than going without, which is why the pragmatic mate choice also provides genuine positive emotion, even if it's not the "maximum" need fulfillment possible.
That's a pretty insightful article. I wish I had that 20 years ago when I met my future ex-wife. Let's review my list:
1. we don't understand ourselves. (check.. plus). At least not then.
2. we don't understand other people. (check). I interpreted them as what I wanted them to be, not as they were. Note: all the little foibles and peccadilloes will add up.
3. we aren't used to being happy. (check). I was driven then and had been for so long. Suffering to me was success so being with an extremely difficult person was actually 'comfortable'.. or at least familiar.
4. being single is so awful. (no check). Being single was great then and now. (but it's harder with three kids..) Looking back, I was single living in NY..and have absolutely no idea why I got married... But this leads to..
5. Instinct has too much Prestige. (CHECK CHECK). Love this line (and maybe I'm just too stupid to really know what it means), but I interpret it as 'I know what's right' (ostensibly). I really thought I knew what I was doing.. I was always such a know-it-all, did absolutely no homework on what really binds two people together and.. there you go.
Pretty much the same for me... I met my soon to be ex-wife 10 years ago, I was young, didn't know and understand myself. I've known that things weren't really right for already 6 years but I've tried to somehow change myself and her to improve things. Important to impose a time limit on that and you don't change the quirks of another person.
Now I know that I went into it too quickly, that our quirks do not match and that while I think she would be the perfect wife to someone else, she's not it for me.
How long were you married for and what was the final nail in the coffin?
It seems like there's never been a better time to be single, especially if you're living in one of the major cities. I have a lot of friends who say the same thing you said, having ''no idea'' why they got married; and when they say it they look truly befuddled as if they just woke up one day and accidentally found themselves in such a state.
The single most awful thing people do is treat love as an 'emotional' affair, something which is beyond reason. That when it happens, it happens, and when you're in a relationship, you must at all cost keep maintaining the sense of euphoria or else everything will be gone.
This would be equivalent of starting a business with someone not on the basis of the value proposition of the business, but based on how you emotionally like the idea, and then hiding all the losses and constantly trying to achieve the initial profit you saw.
After two failed relationships I started to treat love as a logical decision.
I stopped calling the feeling I get when meeting a new person I get attracted to as love. You know, "having a crush" on someone, wearing the pink-sunglasses, butterflies in the belly, or whatever they call it. Love is still about feelings for me, but about other feelings than those.
It's about being able to completely trust each other. About sharing experiences. About understanding. About learning and growing together. These are the things that make me continuously happy in a relationship for long time.
This is a great article. There are some things it doesn't point out.
1) Marriage is a contract, but unlike most contracts, its terms and conditions can change at any time without the consent or knowledge of either party. That is to say, politicians decide the terms and conditions, and your marriage isn't grandfathered through with the laws in place at the time it was consummated.
2) As of today, the outcome of divorce (how assets are distributed) is overwhelmingly in favor of the female, assuming a mixed-gender marriage. This is one of the reasons for the large gap in divorce initiations: women profit far more, and thus more often end the marriage.
There are a couple more conclusions you can draw about whether you should do more due diligence on the person you're about to marry.
1) If you're female, you can be far less concerned. If it turns out to be the wrong guy, just divorce him. If anything, you'll get assets and a livable wage for no effort for years.
2) If you're male, you should be far more concerned. You need to do 10-50x more work vetting your future partner than your parents and grandparents did.
3) The divorce laws in 5 years may be completely different than today. Be sure to plan for how the political climate will change in the future.
I have been married more than once, so as you can imagine, I've had to put a lot of thought into this matter. The marriage that ended is responsible for reducing my wages, which should lead me to living comfortably in San Francisco, to being required to live with roommates. There is a large amount of danger involved in marriage, so make sure you understand the dangers before pulling the trigger.
EDIT: The reduction in income also has prevented me from working at several really great startups and instead having to slave at more profitable companies like ad networks etc. These go against my moral compass, so for me, at least, divorce also led to me having to contribute to increasing evil in the world. This is a huge personal hit that is hard to understate.
For men who had a bit of an awkward childhood (like, say, me, and perhaps some of you as well), perhaps the most important bit of advice about marriage is that your first serious relationship, should it happen to end, will not end up being the only one you ever have, and that "we've already been together for an appropriately long period of time" is not remotely a legitimate reason to get married.
Should there not be a very, very strong match - due to lack of shared values, mismatched libido, poor communication skills, whatever - then the appropriate thing to do is break it off, not limp along in an adequate-but-far-from-ideal state until length of tenure or the pressure of societal obligations compel you to the altar.
I agree with your last paragraph except for one point. Libido can and does change, but it's (from my experience) not controllable. OTOH, you can work on your communication skills, or even convince someone that, e.g. spending more money on trips than on clothing is better (i.e. influence one's values). Not even great communication between partners will fix a libido mismatch, it's not something that can be rationalized.
My wife had me buy her a poster this year which I have found to be particularly profound in a variety of life's situations. It says, simply "The grass is greener where you water it."
While this post almost touched on the issue I believe the number one reason marriage is in trouble in the 21st century is due to media and societal glamorization of hedonism and selfishness.
Not mentioned in the post is the value that can only come from having a single mate for life and working through problems together (lightly mentioned as "growing together"). This idea became abhorrent in the 20th century, driven in large part by advertising but also the culture of the baby boomers.
Rock stars and groupies were glamorized. Men had immense media pressure on them to have multiple mates. Toward the end of the century women had the same pressure put on them with media like Sex and The City and Friends.
The documentary Century Of Self covers a lot of the root manipulation that created this situation, but the end result is a feeling of failure and shame for people with low partner counts.
My grandparents met when they were both engaged to other people. The story goes that my grandfather came home that day and told his fiancee that: "I met another woman and while I do not know if she is the right one I have learned that you are the wrong one". He ended up marrying that woman he met that day and living happily together for more than sixty years. The fiancee found someone else and lived happily as well.
I don't think it matters much if someone is the wrong person for anyone. They are just as dangerous as the wrong person for yourself. If you are allergic to cats or peanuts who cares that other people enjoy them?
I've got one word for all you lovebirds- roommates. Best (reversible) way to know your domestic faults. Distrust any potential romantic partner that hasn't lived with other people extensively. And in their adult lives, since in college most people aren't ready to do that kind of self-development. And distrust yourself if you haven't done the same, of course.
I thought this was pretty fantastic. I would say it nailed much of the reason I ended up marrying the wrong person.
However, denial was a HUGE part that doesn't come up here. Every time in the run-up to the wedding that I experienced something that made me want to call it off, I told myself it was just cold feet, that all guys think that stuff. Denial. But I suppose this is more or less covered by the part about not knowing oneself. Definitely learned a lot about myself since then.
Two more things:
1) It's really not hard to get laid in your 30s. I outright disagree with that part.
2) For me at least, the divorce itself was nowhere near the emotional blow of realizing that I was married to someone who was wrong for me. Carrying that burden inside was soul-destroying. Talking in counseling about what wasn't working, and then ultimately getting divorced, was nowhere near as bad as that. But, I was only married for two years. It probably sucks a lot worse when you've bought a house and had babies and stuff.
This site seems to be derived (or even created by as, it reminds me of his style) Alain de Botton's work -- author of many interesting modern philosophy books: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_de_Botton
Yup, he helped found The School of Life, which is responsible for this website.
Out of curiosity, did you read the content and not read anything about the source? The first thought I had when I saw the domain name was huh, who is telling me to live my life this way.
> Back in the olden days, marriage was a rational business ...
It still is for 80% of the world population.
> We are still traumatised by this.
I don't think that 80% of the world population would be traumatized. Arranged marriages work absolutely fine. It is rather the alternative that is in doubt.
Agreed... ITT there is a good amount of presumption that the natural and appropriate motivation for decisions is personal actualization and short horizon victory.
E.g. contention that it's so good to be single today, why would you even consider getting married?
The answer to those in a prolonged adolescence with such a view is: because there may be more to life than yourself. The first thing that changes when you _have kids_ is that you should no longer be your own top priority.
Thank god neurobiology forces reorganization of imperatives as much as it does...! :)
There was distinct libido mismatch which ultimately deteriorated into an effective 'weapon', if you will (if you do this, you won't get that, kind of thing). Money was never a problem. I suspect money is Often used as convenient excuse hiding something more sinister (or prosaic like in my case, we just never loved one another )
I think there might be simpler explanation. Consider that starting and especially leaving a relationship has major time and emotional costs. So we're simply biased to commit to anyone we happen to be with. Similar to why we work the wrong job, for example.
This was painful - I read the first point, skimmed the second and forwarded reading a sentence of each point further down the line.
Anyone giving out bullet points about marriage needs to back it up with some credentials - who are you to be making these statements?
This comes across a lot like self-help advice from someone needing some help.
'Learn by teaching' is a disaster in the making - you simply don't have the life experience to teach anyone anything but what a thousand thoughts going in a thousand different directions look like.
The heavy-intellectualizing of this post and the pomposity of 'book of life' - please take a look in the mirror and humble yourself, whoever the author may be :)
There is so much wrong with the first section of the article, I could only put up with skimming the rest. The only thing I learned from the first section was not to marry the author.
I feel so sad reading this as I feel that my marriage is in the final stages and will end soon - regardless of what I want. I have a 6 and 3 yr old who I will do anything for but carrying on in marriage won't work and I don't have the final say if things are to end. Does anyone know some online groups or forums to talk through these issues? I'm not US-based but still would value the chance to talk to people in the same situation.
Seems like the biggest thing of all is forgotten here - people change. Even if you marry the right person, they won't be that same person a year out and you won't be either so it doesn't really matter who you married or who you were when you married. Sure there are some people who are really really wrong for one another but outside of that, everyone is going to "marry the wrong person". If they're not the wrong person when you marry them, just wait longer. There's a book that covers this as well as a lot of other misnomers on marriage and how to work through them, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0054TVVPK
At this rate, I'll likely never marry since I have a hard enough time knowing myself in general (not a joke, since I'm trans and dealing with my gender identity now at 35 it really sucks to meet people in social settings). Oh well, I can always just have a cat to feed and pet.
I am from a different school. I got married because I had to. The myriad questions of "incompatibility" were never given accommodation in both of our minds. Period.
Moral: I am not so special so as not to be able to accommodate another person !
I'm sure there are a variety of subreddits you could combine into a multireddit that would serve this purpose. /r/diy, /r/lifeprotips, and /r/personalfinance all come to mind.
santaclause33|10 years ago
1) In response to the "know yourself" bullet: I met my now wife at 15 - we learned a lot about ourselves between then and when we married at age 22. But we were pretty much committed to marrying by age 18, even though we learned a lot after. You can learn with another person.
2) Life pro tip on understanding other people (this is a quick reinforcement of a bunch of points in the article): if someone is behaving irrationally, 99% of the time its because they are subconciously insecure about something.
3) The odds of first marriage are better than 50/50. That statistic is for total marriages, but people who divorce once on average divorce multiple times. Success rate of first marriage is something like 65%. Also, that success rate goes higher if you're high income, like most of HN.
acheron|10 years ago
Yes, thanks, I was about to post the same thing. Also divorce rates are lower among college graduates (which is correlated with income of course).
stvswn|10 years ago
It's hard for me to argue, rationally, that I happened to meet my one-and-only soulmate in high school. I think I got lucky because I married someone who valued marriage the same way I do. We both consider the marriage itself to be more important than either of us individually. We both came from stable families, so we have good examples to follow. It might not sound romantic, but we both could have probably committed fully to any number of people. As it stands, we committed to each other and the sum is greater than the parts.
I know other people are in tough situations, and I'm not saying that everyone should just "suck it up." I just think that marriages are more resilient when each person is secure in the knowledge that the other isn't considering leaving. It's hard to commit fully if divorce is an option on the table. When your thinking goes in that direction, you start resenting your partner for depriving you of that other life.
zxcvvcxz|10 years ago
How about the possibility that they are tired of their partner? The irrationality might come from the fact that they are bound to them (e.g. marriage) and feel pressure to not break that apart. That'd be quite an internal conflict, and might produce irrational behavior.
If this is a possible explanation (I've seen it many times at least), do you really think it's an only 1% of the time cause? I think that's being unrealistically optimistic. Because then your narrative sounds very convenient and comforting: "Oh, I just have to help them get over their insecurities and it's happily ever after." Not to be a downer, but I think people need to be more realistic about these things so they have better odds of finding a partner with which they have a good dynamic.
(It's kind of like being stuck at a job you don't like, but you need the money. That's bad for both the employee and the business.)
pmarreck|10 years ago
> The odds of first marriage are better than 50/50
That depends on a shocking number of variables. For example, http://www.maselliwarren.com/2014/03/20/divorce-rates-increa... "60 percent of marriages for couples between the ages of 20 and 25 end in divorce. For couples who are even younger, the prognosis becomes bleaker still."
http://www.maselliwarren.com/2014/02/28/factors-affect-divor... "“Marriages are more likely to last for longer periods of time when people marry at an older age, have a higher education and earn more"
There was another source citing evidence that too much relationship experience prior to marriage can confound marriage happiness somewhat, but it was from a Christian (and therefore biased and/or scientifically suspect) source. Here's something more scientific:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7893...
k__|10 years ago
I mean he is 31 and they came together when he was 16 and she was 15. They experienced their whole adult life together. They split for about 4 months but came together again, probably because of this.
On the other hand, I'm the complete opposite, so it's hard for me to understand.
I had my first relationship with 19 and we were together only one year. I'm 30 now and had about 7 relationships. Right now I have my two longest relationships of 2 and 2,5 years.
Maybe it's a good thing to get together with 15, so you make the most important experiences in life together, to weld you together more strongly.
When I started dating with 19 I already had many expectations and a own life, which needed another person to fit in somehow. And most didn't...
gohrt|10 years ago
I'd generalize that to "they are reacting rationally to factors that are invisible to you"
dsajames|10 years ago
lacker|10 years ago
Or because they are sleep-deprived. I guess that applies more later once you have kids though ;-)
unknown|10 years ago
[deleted]
zxcvvcxz|10 years ago
The fact of the matter is that women are primarily interested in a top smaller percentage of high value men (this is called hypergamy). This smaller group of desirable men would most like to have multiple mates (this is called polygamy). Marriage, and the accompanying culture and customs, 'corrects' this by trying to create a 1-to-1 mapping. Both extreme strategies described are traditionally shamed and discouraged.
Why? Because marriage (monogamous long-term bonding) is good for society. It incentivizes the largest amount of people to be productive, and reduces civil unrest by distributing sexual access to women across as many men as possible. For more on sex and society, check out J.D. Unwin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._D._Unwin
Now, how this relates to the OP. The fact of the matter is that people become unhappy in a relationship of any kind when they think they are getting the short end of the stick, and could be doing better. They'll rationalize it six ways to Sunday, "my partner doesn't understand me", "my partner smothers me", "they don't do enough chores", "we don't understand ourselves", whatever, but at the end of the day they think they ought to have a better mate, and are fed up with their current one!
This is especially true of women, who, by pure numerical inevitability, largely marry below what they would prefer. We know that women initiate most divorces too, at ~70% (fun fact: among college-eduated couples, that number rises to 90%). A smaller amount of men end up locked to one person too, when they know in another world they could have more mates. Such are the sacrifices for the monogamous society (often referred to as patriarchal, because women are more sexually restricted).
So in conclusion, what bothers me about articles like this, who delve deep into rationalizations instead of simple mate value and attractiveness, is the implication of a 1-to-1 mapping between men and women. Is there a right person to marry, for most people? Probably not.
manyoso|10 years ago
This is such a pithy statement, used with such simple compelling force, that I applaud it even while disagreeing. Some points that counter this message:
1) What percentage of partners that end up leaving the marriage do so with another partner lined up?
2) Of the percentage that do not - a sizable set I would assume - how many exited after long-term (years?) relationships?
3) Of the percentage that did - another sizable set I would assume - what caused the reasoning process to take so long? Why didn't they conclude they could do better earlier?
I would argue most people go into marriage with at least some amount of good faith effort to make it last. Why do they make such a good faith effort in the first place if they are operating as you would say?
epimetheus|10 years ago
I don't know if this is true across the board. I don't feel that way entirely, more along the lines of "I'm stuck in this situation; kids, a marriage where I get no real benefit, I just want to be free and do what I want and not have to bow to their whims."
I know several people, right now, that have been divorced for some time (5+ years, and in one case 10+ years) and don't even date or have interest in dating. Their motivations seem aligned more with mine than wanting a better mate - In fact, If I end up getting a divorce (we have agreed to try and work it out, again), I have no interest in dating again, at least not for a while.
FWIW, I'm 38, and the people I'm referencing are older than me, some as much as 12+ years older, so maybe it's an age thing.
bambax|10 years ago
Therefore it shouldn't be unexpected that women who didn't get to marry the alpha male, are unhappy and eventually want out.
rayiner|10 years ago
If it was about access to better mates, you'd expect to see the disparity extend to non-marriage relationships too, but you don't.
LeifCarrotson|10 years ago
cryoshon|10 years ago
There's too many contented or at least not actively dissatisfied people to support the idea you're discussing in practice, though I agree it's theoretically plausible.
Rather than a question of sexual access relative to resources, I'd reframe it for the 21st century as a mutual understanding of shared needs and shared solutions to those needs. Sure, not everyone can fill every need for every other person, but it's probably better than going without, which is why the pragmatic mate choice also provides genuine positive emotion, even if it's not the "maximum" need fulfillment possible.
shostack|10 years ago
cmollis|10 years ago
1. we don't understand ourselves. (check.. plus). At least not then. 2. we don't understand other people. (check). I interpreted them as what I wanted them to be, not as they were. Note: all the little foibles and peccadilloes will add up. 3. we aren't used to being happy. (check). I was driven then and had been for so long. Suffering to me was success so being with an extremely difficult person was actually 'comfortable'.. or at least familiar. 4. being single is so awful. (no check). Being single was great then and now. (but it's harder with three kids..) Looking back, I was single living in NY..and have absolutely no idea why I got married... But this leads to.. 5. Instinct has too much Prestige. (CHECK CHECK). Love this line (and maybe I'm just too stupid to really know what it means), but I interpret it as 'I know what's right' (ostensibly). I really thought I knew what I was doing.. I was always such a know-it-all, did absolutely no homework on what really binds two people together and.. there you go.
nicolas_t|10 years ago
Now I know that I went into it too quickly, that our quirks do not match and that while I think she would be the perfect wife to someone else, she's not it for me.
nugget|10 years ago
It seems like there's never been a better time to be single, especially if you're living in one of the major cities. I have a lot of friends who say the same thing you said, having ''no idea'' why they got married; and when they say it they look truly befuddled as if they just woke up one day and accidentally found themselves in such a state.
splintercell|10 years ago
This would be equivalent of starting a business with someone not on the basis of the value proposition of the business, but based on how you emotionally like the idea, and then hiding all the losses and constantly trying to achieve the initial profit you saw.
k__|10 years ago
I stopped calling the feeling I get when meeting a new person I get attracted to as love. You know, "having a crush" on someone, wearing the pink-sunglasses, butterflies in the belly, or whatever they call it. Love is still about feelings for me, but about other feelings than those.
It's about being able to completely trust each other. About sharing experiences. About understanding. About learning and growing together. These are the things that make me continuously happy in a relationship for long time.
Sven7|10 years ago
philovivero|10 years ago
1) Marriage is a contract, but unlike most contracts, its terms and conditions can change at any time without the consent or knowledge of either party. That is to say, politicians decide the terms and conditions, and your marriage isn't grandfathered through with the laws in place at the time it was consummated.
2) As of today, the outcome of divorce (how assets are distributed) is overwhelmingly in favor of the female, assuming a mixed-gender marriage. This is one of the reasons for the large gap in divorce initiations: women profit far more, and thus more often end the marriage.
There are a couple more conclusions you can draw about whether you should do more due diligence on the person you're about to marry.
1) If you're female, you can be far less concerned. If it turns out to be the wrong guy, just divorce him. If anything, you'll get assets and a livable wage for no effort for years.
2) If you're male, you should be far more concerned. You need to do 10-50x more work vetting your future partner than your parents and grandparents did.
3) The divorce laws in 5 years may be completely different than today. Be sure to plan for how the political climate will change in the future.
I have been married more than once, so as you can imagine, I've had to put a lot of thought into this matter. The marriage that ended is responsible for reducing my wages, which should lead me to living comfortably in San Francisco, to being required to live with roommates. There is a large amount of danger involved in marriage, so make sure you understand the dangers before pulling the trigger.
EDIT: The reduction in income also has prevented me from working at several really great startups and instead having to slave at more profitable companies like ad networks etc. These go against my moral compass, so for me, at least, divorce also led to me having to contribute to increasing evil in the world. This is a huge personal hit that is hard to understate.
gyardley|10 years ago
Should there not be a very, very strong match - due to lack of shared values, mismatched libido, poor communication skills, whatever - then the appropriate thing to do is break it off, not limp along in an adequate-but-far-from-ideal state until length of tenure or the pressure of societal obligations compel you to the altar.
chm|10 years ago
firemanx|10 years ago
We've since had it framed.
exstudent2|10 years ago
Not mentioned in the post is the value that can only come from having a single mate for life and working through problems together (lightly mentioned as "growing together"). This idea became abhorrent in the 20th century, driven in large part by advertising but also the culture of the baby boomers.
Rock stars and groupies were glamorized. Men had immense media pressure on them to have multiple mates. Toward the end of the century women had the same pressure put on them with media like Sex and The City and Friends.
The documentary Century Of Self covers a lot of the root manipulation that created this situation, but the end result is a feeling of failure and shame for people with low partner counts.
kazinator|10 years ago
Cerium|10 years ago
I don't think it matters much if someone is the wrong person for anyone. They are just as dangerous as the wrong person for yourself. If you are allergic to cats or peanuts who cares that other people enjoy them?
AznHisoka|10 years ago
Very little consolation (if any) if he/she turns out to be the right person for someone else.
maxander|10 years ago
draw_down|10 years ago
However, denial was a HUGE part that doesn't come up here. Every time in the run-up to the wedding that I experienced something that made me want to call it off, I told myself it was just cold feet, that all guys think that stuff. Denial. But I suppose this is more or less covered by the part about not knowing oneself. Definitely learned a lot about myself since then.
Two more things:
1) It's really not hard to get laid in your 30s. I outright disagree with that part.
2) For me at least, the divorce itself was nowhere near the emotional blow of realizing that I was married to someone who was wrong for me. Carrying that burden inside was soul-destroying. Talking in counseling about what wasn't working, and then ultimately getting divorced, was nowhere near as bad as that. But, I was only married for two years. It probably sucks a lot worse when you've bought a house and had babies and stuff.
Erwin|10 years ago
kough|10 years ago
Out of curiosity, did you read the content and not read anything about the source? The first thought I had when I saw the domain name was huh, who is telling me to live my life this way.
gizi|10 years ago
It still is for 80% of the world population.
> We are still traumatised by this.
I don't think that 80% of the world population would be traumatized. Arranged marriages work absolutely fine. It is rather the alternative that is in doubt.
aaroninsf|10 years ago
E.g. contention that it's so good to be single today, why would you even consider getting married?
The answer to those in a prolonged adolescence with such a view is: because there may be more to life than yourself. The first thing that changes when you _have kids_ is that you should no longer be your own top priority.
Thank god neurobiology forces reorganization of imperatives as much as it does...! :)
logfromblammo|10 years ago
My hypothesis is that libido mismatch and inability to reach consensus on household budgeting are the two strongest root causes for failed marriages.
cmollis|10 years ago
tgb|10 years ago
therealdrag0|10 years ago
alexashka|10 years ago
Anyone giving out bullet points about marriage needs to back it up with some credentials - who are you to be making these statements?
This comes across a lot like self-help advice from someone needing some help.
'Learn by teaching' is a disaster in the making - you simply don't have the life experience to teach anyone anything but what a thousand thoughts going in a thousand different directions look like.
The heavy-intellectualizing of this post and the pomposity of 'book of life' - please take a look in the mirror and humble yourself, whoever the author may be :)
sjg007|10 years ago
CameraSupra|10 years ago
scribu|10 years ago
whitsend|10 years ago
thanks.
ececconi|10 years ago
- how can one raise children with them - how can one develop together
lakesta|10 years ago
hoodoof|10 years ago
http://www.danoah.com/2012/10/16-ways-i-blew-my-marriage.htm...
norea-armozel|10 years ago
SSQ|10 years ago
Moral: I am not so special so as not to be able to accommodate another person !
oldsj|10 years ago
What if we made a git-backed / wiki style site like this where anyone could contribute and the best "life advice" would rise to the top?
dopamean|10 years ago
unknown|10 years ago
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basicplus2|10 years ago
grillvogel|10 years ago
noselfrighteous|10 years ago