Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable.
The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers have no idea where I'm from until they ask me. They'll overhear me on the phone talking to my family, and notice that I speak in an entirely different manner. It's not a conscious thing on my part, but I sometimes feel very awkward about it. At times, I'm very upset by the fact that someone who grows up in a particular part of the country gets to speak in their native dialect at work without judgement, all because of stereotypes about intelligence and education, which essentially tie directly to the author's point about class.
Basically, since class is culture, and cultures have language, a sociolect describes the language of a class, the ways you have to talk to perform that class.
And, naturally, this goes both ways. Someone talking the sociolect of a certain class is seen as performing that class, and therefore belonging to the class.
It should also be noted that the original article is itself a class performance! The author uses more complex words and grammar than necessary, thereby signalling academia or professional class. (Someone in the comments on that page wondered why this article had a more complex language compared to other articles by the same author, but didn't connect the dots...)
I do the same thing. There's a particular way of speaking in the North of New Zealand that is associated with poor Maori - when I'm talking to my dad's family, I switch back to talking like that. I mask it in almost all other situations, but it's caught a few friends out at times. One told me it was like talking to a completely different person.
My dad is a tradesperson, and his influence is the one thing I have never been able to completely hide, even in professional settings. It's gotten me a bit of grief over the years, as my response to stress is often to start swearing like a builder.
On one hand, I like being able to code-switch easily. On the other hand, I feel like the only reason I can do it is because I had to, and the inability to completely mask my lower class upbringing has negatively impacted my opportunities at times.
At this point, I just try to own it. If I don't, it's just persisting the negative stereotypes of people of Maori descent never making something of themselves. Gotta start breaking those biases down somehow.
It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c.
It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.
That's fascinating. I remember reading something a while ago about the loss of regional accents (there's a great "Downeast" accent up here in Maine that no one has anymore, except lobstermen). People like to blame mass media, but in reality it's mass communication and the stigma of having a thick Brooklyn, Southie, or Downeast accent that encourages folks to pretend they don't have one.
On the flip side, there is some evolutionary reasons why humans make quick decision when encountering new people or places, and I would guess it would take generations to change our hardwiring to NOT make those assumptions unconsciously. Even more brutal, if that hardwiring changes, there are circumstances where we'd likely be in trouble but for our split second assumptions.
Fascinating story on NPR last year about a cop in an evacuated Wal-mart looking for an active shooter. Came around the corner to see a white woman and for half a second wondered why a civilian was still in the store. Then she shot at him, he returned fire and barely escaped with his life. So there's arguments to be made for learning how to avoid those assumptions too :) Crazy, mixed up world we humans make for ourselves.
Also being from the south (Kentucky, so not as far south perhaps), I see this as well. My approach is actually the inverse. Like racism or really any form of bigotry, I call it out when I see it and make it known this is _not_ ok. Very few HR departments are ok with bigotry of this sort.
You shouldn't have to be ashamed of how you sound or where you're from. I do massively agree with you regarding people thinking southerners are stupid bigots. The way to fix that is to show them you're not, and make a strong point of showing it.
It reminds me of a trip I recently took to Belfast. The day I was there, a car bomb from the IRA killed a police officer. A cabbie asked me if I supported Donald Trump and told he we was surprised I didn't. He told me all Americans supported Trump. So I asked him if he was an IRA thug/terrorist, to which he naturally said no. So rhetorically, I asked how he was from northern ireland and not IRA. When he explained what was obvious, I said EXACTLY, this is much like people who support trump in America. The vocal minority often drown out the majority. Blindly categorizing someone in $group is bigotry plain and simple. Just because it comes from an educated person in tech doesn't make it any less so. Perhaps point out this hypocrisy.
I'm from SE Texas and had a very thick accent growing up. I spent considerable effort getting rid of that accent around age 16. It's a double edged sword. I got so good at it that when I acquired a job at a newspaper in the town I was born in it caused some issues. Locals were upset about our paper hiring a girl from Indiana and another guy from Ohio. It was a very small town and the locals believed the local newspaper should be staffed by locals. When I would interview people they would get standoffish, accusing me of being a northerner, an outsider. I would tell them I could see the hospital I was born in from my office window, but they wouldn't believe me. My accent still comes out when I've had a few drinks or get tired. I've had a few people notice and think it's hysterical that I try to hide it. I too work in tech now and don't want anybody making snap judgments about me from the way I speak.
I've had instances where if I reveal my technical experience with the usual way I speak about such things - I get cold/rude service. This happened at one of those AT&T storefronts, Best Buy, Fry's Electronics, and at more than a few Apple Stores. I don't try to be intimidating, but I do want to inform the person "helping" me if I can...
I've gotten into the habit of adopting a slower speech with a slight drawl in an effort to appear more relatable and honest about my intentions. It takes some patience as I have to describe my problem 'in a circle' and without a larger vocabulary. However, I don't get treated like sheltered upper-class and people seem to want to help me rather than avoid me.
I've also avoid sounding like the stereotypical homosexual. Just the "accent" makes some people freak out and say I'm 'shoving it in their face'. I'm looking at you Aunt Marlene. I reserve the lisp for Vegas and Chippendales.
I'm from Atlanta and still live here. You wouldnt know I was from the South because of my accent, I have none. I did kill my accent in grade school when kids made fun of me for saying words different.
In my limited experience working with others, southern accent = ignorant bigot has not been something I have seen with my co workers. People usually just shrug it off but I can see why a country accent may be looked down upon by ignorant people.
Fascinating since I feel that a southern accent (perhaps a light one) can be an advantage in professional services (ex: law) since it communicates approachability and trustworthiness.
Stereotypes. They exist for a reason, it's just that we think they are true more often than they are, so we end up making the wrong choice much of the time.
Most elite Northerner whites are just as insulated as they think Southerners are, when it comes to traveling within their own country. In fact they typically know jack shit about Southern culture. There was a time when Southern accents were considered deliberately slow, enunciated, cultured. Yes, at that time whites were at the top of the class food chain, and yes most of that white privilege was racist or at least depended on it. But the accent is orthogonal to racism. We've just come to associate one with the other, using a stereotype.
Another stereotype is white Northerners will pretty much assume white Southerners, identified as such by their drawl, may be a racist.
Everything you say is essentially also valid for immigrants (perhaps now citizens) who haven't lost their accent.
While I agree this is not ideal, it's also built into human nature to use any/all hints to help generalize/categorize (likely because it determined survival in the past).
Not quite the same thing, but I have a friend who naturally has a Midwestern accent. She told me once that when she used to be a waitress, she got way better tips by faking a British or Australian accent.
I grew up in the South (though not rural or Appalachia) and at age 10, I made the conscientious decision to get rid of my southern accent. It sounded "unintelligent" to me but more than that, it seemed to bely my moral values. As judgmental as this sounds (and it's true, it is judgmental), I looked around at the values that are often attached to the South -- bigotry and racism being the big two -- and said, "no."
So, at age 10, I lost my accent. I first stopped saying "y'all" -- but it quickly morphed into my entire accent changing. My parents/sister and most of my friends still had an accent, but I lost mine. With the exception of a few words or phrases, I don't even say southern colloquialisms. (I do still call every type of soda "Coke" -- but that's just Atlanta pride).
When I take those tests that determine dialect, I never get the South, I almost always get midwest or Southern California. (That was the goal, so go me?) Even drunk, I don't slip back to a southern accent, simply because it doesn't exist as part of me anymore.
The fact that I made that decision at age 10 -- and to be VERY clear, it was my own decision and not one pushed/encouraged by my parents (in fact, they probably rolled their eyes) -- I think says a lot about just how palpable those stereotypes that you mention are. Because at that age, when given the opportunity to lose an accent (I had speech impediment, was taking speech therapy a few times a week and had to basically re-train myself to talk. I decided to hack the system and get the accent I wanted in the process), I took it. I'll be totally honest, I don't regret it.
But still, I do often think about the code switching that I chose to take on at that age and what that means. For my career now, which often includes going on television -- it's realistically probably served me well to have no accent. Even in high school working in retail, it often served me well to "not sound like I was from the South" when selling someone a $1500 digital video camera or charging $50 an hour to repair a computer.
Still, I do think about it a lot. I think about why it was so important, even at that age, for me to reject something like my voice/accent.
My husband (a software engineer) is a lot like you in that he is able to switch his accent on and off depending on who he talks to. When speaking with his parents or grandmother, his Tennessee twang comes out. With colleagues or people in our neighborhood, there is a slight hint of an accent, but nothing major. And he does it for the same reasons.
No one wants to sound like a redneck in a professional setting, especially one stereotypically white-collar like software engineering. And yet, we don't talk about why that is the case -- or why where we are from matters.
While I was born in Australia, I worked in the UK for many years in a job that involved traveling the country. I would often see confusion as people realized I didn't fit their social groupings and stereotypes. It was a real advantage.
I lived in the south for some time, and being from the midwest ('no' accent), I was always called a yankee. Sometimes as a joke, but there were plenty of cases where it made me feel uncomfortable.
Wear your accent with pride, if your co-workers' stereotyping persists then they're the bigots. Otherwise it becomes a cool personality trait others can't fake.
Duuuude! Me too all the way... Except I don't change my accent. I just fuck with people and their stupid biases... I tell the truth, and when people are sacarcastic I take it all literally on purpose... And I make them explain everything, especially their stupid jokes!!! Oh man I love making people explain their stupid jokes to me. My favorite thing to say is, "I don't get it?" Or "yeaaah, I'm a literalist. I don't get sarcasm." ....and if the conversation hasn't turned to something real and interesting by this point and right when they're fedup and ready and to walk away and dissmis me... That's when I tell them I'm fucking with them in my best voice impression of theirs. It's all about vetting and breaking social facades. Most people and especially in tech were abussed by their peers as kids. They learned early on to judge and dismiss. You can't take it too personally and you always have to be ready to fight. The key is to come from a place of humility and not to be mean. Otherwise you'll just add to the problem and growing cultural divide. Oh yeah I'm from Oklahoma, I had a speech impediment as a kid so they tell me. I was beat up or confronted nearly every day in school by people who were afraid and didn't understand me. It didn't help that I went to school in the poorest school in town, that was also the most racially/culturally diverse school... And my mom was an administrator there. So all the worst kids had beaf with me because of my mom. But one of the best lessons I ever learned was "fuck the dumb shit"... This goes for all things in life.
Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. To me, the separation of economic class and social class is clearer than to the average American.
But, the same rules of "invisibility" apply where I'm from. Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely clueless. They don't know they belong to it, they don't know others don't, and they completely subscribe to the "we're all just regular middle class" mentality. The friends I have from other classes, or who have also made class journeys, are much more in tune, they have no problems seeing class and classism.
One thing that was very illuminating to me in this article was the notion of class as culture, and class as performance.
> It is a common misconception that the primary obstacle to being in a much higher class is money to afford the things by which one performs that class. The limiting factor is not money, it is this: it is impossible to join a culture the ways of which you know nothing. You may come by money, but the ignorance of how to use it to perform that higher class will keep you out as adamantly as if there were a wall built around it.
> Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money.
The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a hard worker, if you work at all.
Is it possible that your friends are actually right? How did you gain this ability they lack, to detect precisely who is upper-middle class?
You say class isn't about money, and I suppose it shouldn't be. Maybe they think class is about something even worse than money and they don't want any part of it.
> Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely clueless. They don't know they belong to it, they don't know others don't, and they completely subscribe to the "we're all just regular middle class" mentality.
Social class is astonishingly multidimensional as pointed out in the works of C. Wright Mills (Power Elite), Paul Fussel (Class), Tom Wolfe (The Pump House Gang), etc.
In my extended family there are no college professors, but a lot of cops, even a lot of women that are cops. (There are some accountants, but they are forensic accountants ;-)
When I get stopped by the cops I don't worry, they like my attitude, they will tell me that people don't like speeding in their residential neighborhood and to them I look more like a guy who doesn't like speeding in my residential neighborhood and not the kind of guy who likes to play Initial D in residential neighborhoods.
Sometimes I've been a bystander when it looked like the cops showed up to arrest the first black person they saw, or when 15 police vehicles show up to arrest some black guy as thin as a rail and I even have a friend who grew up in a much richer family than me who had a bad attitude towards the police and has had his ass kicked, etc. Somehow though, even though I am not a cop and I don't particularly see things the way cops do, I've somehow absorbed enough protective coloration that I have a lot of "privilege" in this area, and less in some other areas.
Fussel's Class was sort of OK, but then he went on a wish-fulfillment tripe dump, whereupon he wished college professors like himself to be above it all.
Think it's very possible that you believe law enforcement thinks about the world differently than someone trying to avoid law enforcement.
My understanding is that they share the same mental model of the world on average; which is not a critical view of either, just what I've heard from people that know much, much more about how different types of people think than me.
To be clear, it would be foolish to say all people, even of a given type, think the same.
Geography plays a huge role in determining social classes and the perceptions of them. It also influences spending habits.[1]
In New York, for example, it has been shown that people across the income spectrum there will pay more than the national average for shoes and watches. New York is very wealthy and urban, so you are always walking and being seen in your shoes (and checking the time) and it confers a sense of class. The more people think about the quality of their footwear, the more they will be concerned with keeping up appearances. Even poor New Yorkers spend a higher part of their income on shoes than most poor Americans.
Contrast this with, say, San Francisco. The shaggy-looking dude in jeans and a Hard Rock Cafe t-shirt could be a multimillionaire, you'd never know. But it is more likely than not that the given individual is physically fit. It's always bikini season in California, whereas New York's long and snowy winters allow for big meals and bigger coats. The more fit people you encounter, the more you will be concerned with your and other's fitness, because it is more readily on your mind. ("It's warm and sunny all year round and you don't even jog or bike? Get off your ass."). Consequently, the Bay Area sees a disproportionate amount of income spent on health clubs.
Weird example if you ask me. New Yorkers get about an hour of physical activity a day just from transportation, and have a culture of looking more attractive than in other cities, which includes fitness. I find it pretty hard to find a fat person on the subway in NYC.
In contrast, few people in Florida away from the beach seem to work out at a gym, and very few people bike (drivers there see cyclists as fun moving targets). It's often too gross outside to do physical activity, whether it's raining or hot as balls.
There has always been, and always will be, class in a society of people. Even among "progressive" societies like coastal North American cities, classism exists. It may be seperating people based on what level of educational attainment you have, or even how politically correct you act around peers (the more the better...?), but it will exist no matter what.
Status was once (and perhaps still is) a useful metric for the level of contribution someone offered a community - doctors, lawyers and others like them get status because status is what a community could use in lieu of payment as a means of expressing gratitude for the useful service the person provides. We attribute status to athletes, musicians, companies and others for the same reason - they give us something we want.
In order to feel like one belongs you must have acceptance from your community, be it a street gang or a country club. One of the most critical dimensions of the character of a person is how you treat someone that you do not have to treat well.
So we should use our progressive monocultural aspirations for good (treat people fairly and as they want to be treated) instead of just talking about how much you want to save the world while you reject people who have a lesser degree than you.
I once went out to lunch at a modest restaurant with a couple friends, one from a wealthy eastern family and one from poverty. The former was dressed like a slob, the latter in a nice suit.
I was fascinated how the former exuded class in how he comfortably dealt with the waiter and the wine list, etc., while the latter clearly was desperately trying to do that and failing.
The difference was apparent even in how they walked and sat.
I have a friend I grew up with in Florida that for some reason developed an extremely thick southern accent (I didn't).
He never finished college but started a machining company making parts for the food industry and has done very well making many times the money I have. He is a reasonably smart guy but most people wouldn't guess it talking to him. He sounds like he stepped directly out of the "Deliverance" movie. I didn't realize how bad it was until I saw him a year or two ago and even though he hasn't lived in the south in years, I swear his accent has gotten worse.
Obviously this would be a huge negative in certain professions in certain locations. But it certainly hasn't prevented him from succeeding. In fact, my theory is that it has helped and this is why the accent has gotten stronger.
His employees are mostly machinist/welder types. No way to say sissy to those guys more than speaking properly without accent. So maybe it give his some credibility with that crowd. He also does high dollar contracts for major companies. I bet more than a few times he has been sized up as "dumb hick we are going to take advantage of" and been severely underestimated in negations. Point being, in some times and places appearing a dumb hick might get one further than talking smart. Not in the software industry in California necessarily. There appearing smart might be more important than actually being smart:)
The truth of the essay is illustrated by studies that show lower social mobility over longer generational windows, i.e. ones grandfather's income quintile is a better predictor of ones owns than ones fathers's. The intangible cultural inheritance of social class is more lasting than fluctuations in material wealth.
I haven't finished the article yet, but one thing that strikes me is the flamboyant use of vocabulary. Given the topic, I'm not sure whether it's just a peculiarity of the author, an attempt to tailor the reception of the piece with regard to specific audiences, a slight trolling or the reader, or a combination thereof.
For example, early on we get "impecunious" and "shibboleths", followed up shortly afterwards with "booboo" (!). I find it distracting, to the point that I've lost the main thread of the article and I'm now wondering what the author was trying to accomplish with this style, if anything.
I often find myself switching to a different form of conversing when debating here, but I would like to think that's because I'm trying to be precise, and so I switch to a more precise method of expression. Sometimes that makes it into my speech, for example when I'm trying to explain or diagnose a problem. It can be detrimental to communication if leaned on too heavily though.
Article raises an interesting point... I think the divide is valid between social class and economic class, however i will say it is much more fluid in US than in most other countries both developed countries like UK and developing countries like say India. I think the reason is because to the US point of view the ultimate social goal is financial success.
Next interesting point, I think a lot of the outrage with Donald Trump from within the republican party is he is projecting 'lower' class based signifiers and in effect turning power from the 'upper' class republicans to the 'lower' class republicans.
Very interesting thought, that colleges' purpose is to acculturate one into a certain culture. That would explain why collegiate athletics are so important: because people of a particular college's culture place importance on chasing after balls on grassy fields, it's important for colleges to acculturate their students to watching people chase after balls on grassy fields. I'm not saying that sarcastically — as much as I personally have never understood the point collegiate athletics, it makes a lot of sense in this context.
I take issue with her desire to leave race out of the discussion. That's precisely the problem with race in America: race is a decent first-order approximation of class, with all the bad that entails. If we could address that head-on, if people didn't automatically assume that others of the same race are 'like them' and others of a different race are 'unlike them,' and not have those things be true, then racism would be a thing of the past — or, at least, no worse than the silliness one sees about redheads/gingers. The colour of one's skin has no more effect on one's worth as a human being than the colour of one's hair: the day that it's seen as no more important is the day racism is dead. But as long as race and class are conflated, that day won't come.
> The ban on smoking in restaurants – which, let me be clear, I am wildly in favor of, being someone who can't patronize a business with cigarette smoking in it
Can't? Given that tobacco smoke contains no allergens, methinks the mot juste would be 'won't.'
> I empathize when social classes not mine find themselves on the short end of the stick, such as in the above account of smoking regulations, but that doesn't mean I'd do anything to change that outcome. Like, "Wow, it must suck to have your class' norms so disrespected by a change in the law like that. Welp, I'm off to buy a burger in this now refreshingly smoke-free burger joint, and discuss with my class-peers how else we can change public policy to make it more support my class' norms – even, if necessary, at your class' norms' expense."
What was wrong with the previous policy, which meant that some places catered to the author's class and some places catered to other classes?
From the article: "Most people are very ignorant of the norms and values of the social classes more than one degree above or below their own." Somewhere, there must be a "how to" guide for social class. There's a questionnaire, but other than some meaningless content on Quora, not much guidance.[1]
Where there is guidance, it's about language usage.[2] The classic on this being, of course, "My Fair Lady"[1]. This is less of an issue since TV and movies imposed a standard linguistic dialect.
The author likes Paul Fussell's "Class", which is an excellent read. It's quite funny.
Social class is less social than it used to be, and more marketed. As a horse owner, I've seen this change since the 1980s. In the 1980s, it would have been considered tacky to have
advertising at a horse show. Now, Rolex ads are all over the place. Polo is the classic upper class sport (Silicon Valley has three polo fields), but polo players are usually people who were football jocks in high school, but not college.
Well into the 1980s, regular customers could sign their register receipts at Roberts of Woodside (a supermarket with an excellent deli) and be billed monthly.
I think the question of social class applies to my situation quite well considering that despite the fact that I'm a programmer and have a degree in computer science I honestly don't fit in well with people who would be described as middle class. Working class still seems to apply to me despite my salary and job.
Culture in many ways is an adaptation to local conditions magnified though feedback loops. Deserts promote different types of stories vs. grasslands vs. seashore. Now days location is less important, but wealth and poverty are also worlds apart.
What IMO get's lost in these discussions is poor people can make rational choices that conflict with wealthy culture. "Sorry, broke" is a shield for many things making savings often money that you simply don't get to spend. What happens when your 50 and owe more money than you will make in the rest of your life?
This is well worth the read. It's far too easy not to perceive the class issues she brings up, because we're so uncomfortable discussing them. And if you're affluent, it's much easier not to think of yourself as part of a self-perpetuating privileged class.
The telltale sign of classicism in modern America is how the upper middle classes continue to put up with inflated college tuition fees. They're basically paying to keep the lower classes out.
[+] [-] JPKab|10 years ago|reply
The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers have no idea where I'm from until they ask me. They'll overhear me on the phone talking to my family, and notice that I speak in an entirely different manner. It's not a conscious thing on my part, but I sometimes feel very awkward about it. At times, I'm very upset by the fact that someone who grows up in a particular part of the country gets to speak in their native dialect at work without judgement, all because of stereotypes about intelligence and education, which essentially tie directly to the author's point about class.
[+] [-] henrikschroder|10 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociolect
Basically, since class is culture, and cultures have language, a sociolect describes the language of a class, the ways you have to talk to perform that class.
And, naturally, this goes both ways. Someone talking the sociolect of a certain class is seen as performing that class, and therefore belonging to the class.
It should also be noted that the original article is itself a class performance! The author uses more complex words and grammar than necessary, thereby signalling academia or professional class. (Someone in the comments on that page wondered why this article had a more complex language compared to other articles by the same author, but didn't connect the dots...)
[+] [-] jamiepenney|10 years ago|reply
My dad is a tradesperson, and his influence is the one thing I have never been able to completely hide, even in professional settings. It's gotten me a bit of grief over the years, as my response to stress is often to start swearing like a builder.
On one hand, I like being able to code-switch easily. On the other hand, I feel like the only reason I can do it is because I had to, and the inability to completely mask my lower class upbringing has negatively impacted my opportunities at times.
At this point, I just try to own it. If I don't, it's just persisting the negative stereotypes of people of Maori descent never making something of themselves. Gotta start breaking those biases down somehow.
[+] [-] zeveb|10 years ago|reply
It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.
[+] [-] secstate|10 years ago|reply
On the flip side, there is some evolutionary reasons why humans make quick decision when encountering new people or places, and I would guess it would take generations to change our hardwiring to NOT make those assumptions unconsciously. Even more brutal, if that hardwiring changes, there are circumstances where we'd likely be in trouble but for our split second assumptions.
Fascinating story on NPR last year about a cop in an evacuated Wal-mart looking for an active shooter. Came around the corner to see a white woman and for half a second wondered why a civilian was still in the store. Then she shot at him, he returned fire and barely escaped with his life. So there's arguments to be made for learning how to avoid those assumptions too :) Crazy, mixed up world we humans make for ourselves.
[+] [-] SEJeff|10 years ago|reply
You shouldn't have to be ashamed of how you sound or where you're from. I do massively agree with you regarding people thinking southerners are stupid bigots. The way to fix that is to show them you're not, and make a strong point of showing it.
It reminds me of a trip I recently took to Belfast. The day I was there, a car bomb from the IRA killed a police officer. A cabbie asked me if I supported Donald Trump and told he we was surprised I didn't. He told me all Americans supported Trump. So I asked him if he was an IRA thug/terrorist, to which he naturally said no. So rhetorically, I asked how he was from northern ireland and not IRA. When he explained what was obvious, I said EXACTLY, this is much like people who support trump in America. The vocal minority often drown out the majority. Blindly categorizing someone in $group is bigotry plain and simple. Just because it comes from an educated person in tech doesn't make it any less so. Perhaps point out this hypocrisy.
[+] [-] vinbreau|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] coroutines|10 years ago|reply
I've had instances where if I reveal my technical experience with the usual way I speak about such things - I get cold/rude service. This happened at one of those AT&T storefronts, Best Buy, Fry's Electronics, and at more than a few Apple Stores. I don't try to be intimidating, but I do want to inform the person "helping" me if I can...
I've gotten into the habit of adopting a slower speech with a slight drawl in an effort to appear more relatable and honest about my intentions. It takes some patience as I have to describe my problem 'in a circle' and without a larger vocabulary. However, I don't get treated like sheltered upper-class and people seem to want to help me rather than avoid me.
I've also avoid sounding like the stereotypical homosexual. Just the "accent" makes some people freak out and say I'm 'shoving it in their face'. I'm looking at you Aunt Marlene. I reserve the lisp for Vegas and Chippendales.
Just something to think about...
[+] [-] wil421|10 years ago|reply
In my limited experience working with others, southern accent = ignorant bigot has not been something I have seen with my co workers. People usually just shrug it off but I can see why a country accent may be looked down upon by ignorant people.
What part of the country do you work in?
[+] [-] hkmurakami|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cmurf|10 years ago|reply
Most elite Northerner whites are just as insulated as they think Southerners are, when it comes to traveling within their own country. In fact they typically know jack shit about Southern culture. There was a time when Southern accents were considered deliberately slow, enunciated, cultured. Yes, at that time whites were at the top of the class food chain, and yes most of that white privilege was racist or at least depended on it. But the accent is orthogonal to racism. We've just come to associate one with the other, using a stereotype.
Another stereotype is white Northerners will pretty much assume white Southerners, identified as such by their drawl, may be a racist.
Assumptions are traps.
[+] [-] superdude264|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] forrestthewoods|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] r00fus|10 years ago|reply
While I agree this is not ideal, it's also built into human nature to use any/all hints to help generalize/categorize (likely because it determined survival in the past).
[+] [-] santaclaus|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nfriedly|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] filmgirlcw|10 years ago|reply
I grew up in the South (though not rural or Appalachia) and at age 10, I made the conscientious decision to get rid of my southern accent. It sounded "unintelligent" to me but more than that, it seemed to bely my moral values. As judgmental as this sounds (and it's true, it is judgmental), I looked around at the values that are often attached to the South -- bigotry and racism being the big two -- and said, "no."
So, at age 10, I lost my accent. I first stopped saying "y'all" -- but it quickly morphed into my entire accent changing. My parents/sister and most of my friends still had an accent, but I lost mine. With the exception of a few words or phrases, I don't even say southern colloquialisms. (I do still call every type of soda "Coke" -- but that's just Atlanta pride).
When I take those tests that determine dialect, I never get the South, I almost always get midwest or Southern California. (That was the goal, so go me?) Even drunk, I don't slip back to a southern accent, simply because it doesn't exist as part of me anymore.
The fact that I made that decision at age 10 -- and to be VERY clear, it was my own decision and not one pushed/encouraged by my parents (in fact, they probably rolled their eyes) -- I think says a lot about just how palpable those stereotypes that you mention are. Because at that age, when given the opportunity to lose an accent (I had speech impediment, was taking speech therapy a few times a week and had to basically re-train myself to talk. I decided to hack the system and get the accent I wanted in the process), I took it. I'll be totally honest, I don't regret it.
But still, I do often think about the code switching that I chose to take on at that age and what that means. For my career now, which often includes going on television -- it's realistically probably served me well to have no accent. Even in high school working in retail, it often served me well to "not sound like I was from the South" when selling someone a $1500 digital video camera or charging $50 an hour to repair a computer.
Still, I do think about it a lot. I think about why it was so important, even at that age, for me to reject something like my voice/accent.
My husband (a software engineer) is a lot like you in that he is able to switch his accent on and off depending on who he talks to. When speaking with his parents or grandmother, his Tennessee twang comes out. With colleagues or people in our neighborhood, there is a slight hint of an accent, but nothing major. And he does it for the same reasons.
No one wants to sound like a redneck in a professional setting, especially one stereotypically white-collar like software engineering. And yet, we don't talk about why that is the case -- or why where we are from matters.
[+] [-] aryehof|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dboreham|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hoka|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hedonagenda|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wizardforhire|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kbenson|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] henrikschroder|10 years ago|reply
But, the same rules of "invisibility" apply where I'm from. Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely clueless. They don't know they belong to it, they don't know others don't, and they completely subscribe to the "we're all just regular middle class" mentality. The friends I have from other classes, or who have also made class journeys, are much more in tune, they have no problems seeing class and classism.
One thing that was very illuminating to me in this article was the notion of class as culture, and class as performance.
> It is a common misconception that the primary obstacle to being in a much higher class is money to afford the things by which one performs that class. The limiting factor is not money, it is this: it is impossible to join a culture the ways of which you know nothing. You may come by money, but the ignorance of how to use it to perform that higher class will keep you out as adamantly as if there were a wall built around it.
Holy crap. Yes. A thousand times yes.
[+] [-] arcanus|10 years ago|reply
The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a hard worker, if you work at all.
[+] [-] paulsutter|10 years ago|reply
You say class isn't about money, and I suppose it shouldn't be. Maybe they think class is about something even worse than money and they don't want any part of it.
> Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely clueless. They don't know they belong to it, they don't know others don't, and they completely subscribe to the "we're all just regular middle class" mentality.
[+] [-] PaulHoule|10 years ago|reply
In my extended family there are no college professors, but a lot of cops, even a lot of women that are cops. (There are some accountants, but they are forensic accountants ;-)
When I get stopped by the cops I don't worry, they like my attitude, they will tell me that people don't like speeding in their residential neighborhood and to them I look more like a guy who doesn't like speeding in my residential neighborhood and not the kind of guy who likes to play Initial D in residential neighborhoods.
Sometimes I've been a bystander when it looked like the cops showed up to arrest the first black person they saw, or when 15 police vehicles show up to arrest some black guy as thin as a rail and I even have a friend who grew up in a much richer family than me who had a bad attitude towards the police and has had his ass kicked, etc. Somehow though, even though I am not a cop and I don't particularly see things the way cops do, I've somehow absorbed enough protective coloration that I have a lot of "privilege" in this area, and less in some other areas.
[+] [-] B1FF_PSUVM|10 years ago|reply
> family there are no college professors,
Fussel's Class was sort of OK, but then he went on a wish-fulfillment tripe dump, whereupon he wished college professors like himself to be above it all.
Hardy har har, sure, sure ...
[+] [-] nxzero|10 years ago|reply
My understanding is that they share the same mental model of the world on average; which is not a critical view of either, just what I've heard from people that know much, much more about how different types of people think than me.
To be clear, it would be foolish to say all people, even of a given type, think the same.
[+] [-] rm_-rf_slash|10 years ago|reply
In New York, for example, it has been shown that people across the income spectrum there will pay more than the national average for shoes and watches. New York is very wealthy and urban, so you are always walking and being seen in your shoes (and checking the time) and it confers a sense of class. The more people think about the quality of their footwear, the more they will be concerned with keeping up appearances. Even poor New Yorkers spend a higher part of their income on shoes than most poor Americans.
Contrast this with, say, San Francisco. The shaggy-looking dude in jeans and a Hard Rock Cafe t-shirt could be a multimillionaire, you'd never know. But it is more likely than not that the given individual is physically fit. It's always bikini season in California, whereas New York's long and snowy winters allow for big meals and bigger coats. The more fit people you encounter, the more you will be concerned with your and other's fitness, because it is more readily on your mind. ("It's warm and sunny all year round and you don't even jog or bike? Get off your ass."). Consequently, the Bay Area sees a disproportionate amount of income spent on health clubs.
[1] The New York Times had an excellent Op-Ed from a few years back, called: "What People Buy Where" http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/14/opinion/sunday/what-peo...
[+] [-] peterwwillis|10 years ago|reply
In contrast, few people in Florida away from the beach seem to work out at a gym, and very few people bike (drivers there see cyclists as fun moving targets). It's often too gross outside to do physical activity, whether it's raining or hot as balls.
[+] [-] biztos|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tamana|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nibs|10 years ago|reply
Status was once (and perhaps still is) a useful metric for the level of contribution someone offered a community - doctors, lawyers and others like them get status because status is what a community could use in lieu of payment as a means of expressing gratitude for the useful service the person provides. We attribute status to athletes, musicians, companies and others for the same reason - they give us something we want.
In order to feel like one belongs you must have acceptance from your community, be it a street gang or a country club. One of the most critical dimensions of the character of a person is how you treat someone that you do not have to treat well.
So we should use our progressive monocultural aspirations for good (treat people fairly and as they want to be treated) instead of just talking about how much you want to save the world while you reject people who have a lesser degree than you.
[+] [-] dataker|10 years ago|reply
It's really funny: I grew up in a slum, but software now gives me as much money as politicians and senior executives of public companies.
In my first paying contract overseas, I went to the most expensive restaurant in my town.
Although I wore the same clothes and belonged to the same race, everybody was staring at me. The waitress would always reiterate the price of meals.
I actually felt pretty good.
[+] [-] leoc|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WalterBright|10 years ago|reply
I was fascinated how the former exuded class in how he comfortably dealt with the waiter and the wine list, etc., while the latter clearly was desperately trying to do that and failing.
The difference was apparent even in how they walked and sat.
[+] [-] jqm|10 years ago|reply
He never finished college but started a machining company making parts for the food industry and has done very well making many times the money I have. He is a reasonably smart guy but most people wouldn't guess it talking to him. He sounds like he stepped directly out of the "Deliverance" movie. I didn't realize how bad it was until I saw him a year or two ago and even though he hasn't lived in the south in years, I swear his accent has gotten worse.
Obviously this would be a huge negative in certain professions in certain locations. But it certainly hasn't prevented him from succeeding. In fact, my theory is that it has helped and this is why the accent has gotten stronger.
His employees are mostly machinist/welder types. No way to say sissy to those guys more than speaking properly without accent. So maybe it give his some credibility with that crowd. He also does high dollar contracts for major companies. I bet more than a few times he has been sized up as "dumb hick we are going to take advantage of" and been severely underestimated in negations. Point being, in some times and places appearing a dumb hick might get one further than talking smart. Not in the software industry in California necessarily. There appearing smart might be more important than actually being smart:)
[+] [-] llull|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kbenson|10 years ago|reply
For example, early on we get "impecunious" and "shibboleths", followed up shortly afterwards with "booboo" (!). I find it distracting, to the point that I've lost the main thread of the article and I'm now wondering what the author was trying to accomplish with this style, if anything.
I often find myself switching to a different form of conversing when debating here, but I would like to think that's because I'm trying to be precise, and so I switch to a more precise method of expression. Sometimes that makes it into my speech, for example when I'm trying to explain or diagnose a problem. It can be detrimental to communication if leaned on too heavily though.
[+] [-] apalmer|10 years ago|reply
Next interesting point, I think a lot of the outrage with Donald Trump from within the republican party is he is projecting 'lower' class based signifiers and in effect turning power from the 'upper' class republicans to the 'lower' class republicans.
[+] [-] zeveb|10 years ago|reply
I take issue with her desire to leave race out of the discussion. That's precisely the problem with race in America: race is a decent first-order approximation of class, with all the bad that entails. If we could address that head-on, if people didn't automatically assume that others of the same race are 'like them' and others of a different race are 'unlike them,' and not have those things be true, then racism would be a thing of the past — or, at least, no worse than the silliness one sees about redheads/gingers. The colour of one's skin has no more effect on one's worth as a human being than the colour of one's hair: the day that it's seen as no more important is the day racism is dead. But as long as race and class are conflated, that day won't come.
> The ban on smoking in restaurants – which, let me be clear, I am wildly in favor of, being someone who can't patronize a business with cigarette smoking in it
Can't? Given that tobacco smoke contains no allergens, methinks the mot juste would be 'won't.'
> I empathize when social classes not mine find themselves on the short end of the stick, such as in the above account of smoking regulations, but that doesn't mean I'd do anything to change that outcome. Like, "Wow, it must suck to have your class' norms so disrespected by a change in the law like that. Welp, I'm off to buy a burger in this now refreshingly smoke-free burger joint, and discuss with my class-peers how else we can change public policy to make it more support my class' norms – even, if necessary, at your class' norms' expense."
What was wrong with the previous policy, which meant that some places catered to the author's class and some places catered to other classes?
[+] [-] Animats|10 years ago|reply
Where there is guidance, it's about language usage.[2] The classic on this being, of course, "My Fair Lady"[1]. This is less of an issue since TV and movies imposed a standard linguistic dialect.
The author likes Paul Fussell's "Class", which is an excellent read. It's quite funny.
Social class is less social than it used to be, and more marketed. As a horse owner, I've seen this change since the 1980s. In the 1980s, it would have been considered tacky to have advertising at a horse show. Now, Rolex ads are all over the place. Polo is the classic upper class sport (Silicon Valley has three polo fields), but polo players are usually people who were football jocks in high school, but not college.
Well into the 1980s, regular customers could sign their register receipts at Roberts of Woodside (a supermarket with an excellent deli) and be billed monthly.
[1] http://www.asanet.org/introtosociology/Documents/Hidden%20Ru... [2] http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg
[+] [-] lemoncucumber|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] norea-armozel|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Retric|10 years ago|reply
What IMO get's lost in these discussions is poor people can make rational choices that conflict with wealthy culture. "Sorry, broke" is a shield for many things making savings often money that you simply don't get to spend. What happens when your 50 and owe more money than you will make in the rest of your life?
[+] [-] primodemus|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sevensor|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tycho|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] known|10 years ago|reply