Firefox's problem is not lack of features. It's performance.
To be sure, Firefox isn't the worst by many metrics, but it's no longer the stand-out that it was circa 2005-2008. That's why Firefox users left it for Chrome.
And here we are in 2016, I feel that Firefox has a legitimate chance of fighting back if they get their act together. Chrome has become heavy on resource usage while Safari can be sluggish at times. Microsoft has done a great job with Edge but it's bound to Windows 10. This is the opportunity that Firefox should seize.
Yet, they seem to be permanently confused about what they want to do. Chucking Firefox OS was a brave and laudable choice (I say this as a former user, not just an owner, of Firefox OS). But then they work on this? Seriously? Just keep your heads down and concentrate your resources on making Firefox faster and more efficient. Everything else will come with it.
I was just talking this week to one of the guys on the original chrome team. He told me in the beginning they were obsessed with speed -- there was a benchmark in place for time to load from cold boot that wasn't allowed to go up (80ms). So if you wanted to do a new feature you had to jump through hoops to make sure it didn't slow anything down.
Eventually chrome became mainstream, Google started advertising it on their homepage, and features started becoming a priority over speed. At some point the benchmark test case for load time broke and no one fixed it, and things started to slide.
I'm hoping servo provides the necessary investment and juice to restore Firefox to a good browser again (after many, many years).
TBH, I used to hate Firefox's performance, because even loading Facebook froze the entire browser for several msecs (enough to be perceptible), but recently I turned e10s[1] on and the browser feels almost as responsive as Chrome now.
The documentation seems to be outdated, there seems to be an A/B testing right now, and it's recommended to turn off some extensions[2], but this is how I forced e10s to be turned on in `about:config` in the beta:
Firefox isn't losing market share because of minor performance differences.
We live in a world now where the browser that comes with your computer/phone/tablet is usually good enough for most people. Firefox isn't even a consideration anymore, and I say that as someone that uses Firefox as their main browser.
Firefox's popularity grew when IE was seen as bad even by non-technical users. There's not much selling points for the average person to replace their default browser anymore.
What makes you think Edge is less resource hungry than Chrome? Last time I checked the resources used by Edge it was similar to Chrome and even worse in some cases. Any browser that implements a process-per-tab architecture is going to consume significantly more resources than one that doesn't.
Visiting The Verge, Hacker News and Ars Technica yields the following usage:
You'd think that the fact it sometimes crashes when trying to save a file being downloaded is also a bit of an issue. But here we are, two years in with this problem, every crash diligently reported to Mozilla, but all we get back is Hello, Pocket, Sync, Promoted Tiles and what have you. Priorities are certainly ain't set right somewhere in the development pipeline.
Lots of negativity in these comments surrounding Firefox and Mozilla's direction with it. I've been using Rust, a Mozilla product, quite a bit recently and have even contributed to the project. I am throughly impressed with Rust, the language, the ecosystem, and most importantly the way it's maintained by Mozilla. It's an incredible gift by Mozilla to the community at large, and for that they've earned a lot of respect from me.
I agree that Firefox's performance is quite bad these days, but Mozilla is already working on that (with Servo). Pouring more devs into it is not likely to make progress on that front faster (too many cooks). They could have taken a more gradual approach to the problem, by slowly evolving the existing codebase, chipping away at performance. But they've been trying that for a long time. Servo is, in my opinion, the better plan. And with it also comes a massive security hardening. It's a long road, but one worth waiting for.
So, Mozilla has already dedicated the necessary resources to handle performance. What are they to do with the rest of their company's resources, and most importantly, what can they do to grow the company? Firefox Hello and other projects like it are part of that effort. We may not agree that Firefox Hello is a good idea. Personally I don't have a use for it either. But bless them for trying and experimenting.
And let's not forget that Firefox is a "free" product. I can't imagine Mozilla is swimming in money. They don't have the resources that Google or Microsoft have, and yet they still have a solid chance at leap-frogging their competition with Servo.
Personally, I continue to use Firefox as my daily driver, because it appears to respect my privacy more than Chrome, despite its performance issues.
So, Mozilla has already dedicated the necessary resources to handle performance. What are they to do with the rest of their company's resources, and most importantly, what can they do to grow the company?
Mozilla recently jettisoned Thunderbird, its email client, mostly because of its impact on Firefox development (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/mozilla.governance/kAy...). Wouldn't a great native email client be a better way to grow the company than features like this? And shouldn't features be added to make the product better, not just because there are people sitting around with nothing else to do?
I really don't like this sort of comments, trying to make us feel guilty for criticising something. The stupidity of big browser producers makes the web worse for everyone, so it should not be allowed, even if done with good will.
About since 1992 there is a very good tool for sharing tabs: their URLs. Anything that can't be shared with a URL is probably too private to be shared anyways.
I'm a user, I don't care about Rust. Firefox may well be implemented in some object oriented brainfuck, but as long as it does not tuck into its interface irrelevant stuff that I can't remove, I won't touch Firefox. I actually recently considered a switch, and tried FF45, and what I saw: Pocket and this Hello, there, impossible to actually remove. I'd be fine with an addon that they officially developed/backed, and it'd be okay if they advertised it a bit, but this way, no. They certainly lost some people other than me with this inconsiderate manners of theirs.
> I agree that Firefox's performance is quite bad these days, but Mozilla is already working on that (with Servo).
I've checked out servo and compiled and started it in release mode - it required 600MB RAM and 700% CPU to load google(!) with the same speed as my little firefox with tons of extensions - forgive my ignorance but I've expected more from the hype. I've tested some other websites but no luck - Servo is a heavy and slow beast.
> I am throughly impressed with Rust, the language, the ecosystem, and most importantly the way it's maintained by Mozilla.
Rust programs consume so much resources that it could just use a GC instead of the complex manual memory management. The syntax and the standard library is as 'modern' as in cpp - I'm not as impressed as I was a fan of Mozilla.
> Personally, I continue to use Firefox as my daily driver, because it appears to respect my privacy more than Chrome, despite its performance issues.
Search the internet for optimizations, my firefox feels like as fast as chrome - sometime even faster. It just needs some tweaks. Even if ff would be much slower I wouldn't leave it because of firefox's wonderful extension platform and its nice complete theme suites.
Daily firefox user checking in. Every mozilla feature gets me upset because firefox was the poster boy for the underdog. I got behind them completely during the browser wars and have written firefox extensions as well.
But look at them today. Firefox OS. Ads on the initial browser page. Pocket. They were extremely slow to catch up with multi-process tabs. And firefox just freezes up arbitrarily periodically. So very sad.
Performance issues aside, Firefox has not been big on my privacy issues either. Running sync server is so incredibly complicated and it doesn't need to be that way. All it's doing is stash bookmark/password data and the amount of configuration required to run this on your own is mind numbing :/ Just see the wiki pages and they all say the pages need work.
Imagine your Tesla Model S has an issue where it won't charge. You call your buddy who also has a Model S, and she's having the same issue with hers. So, you call Tesla and tell them, "I can't use my Model S because the battery won't charge!". They're like "no worries, send us the diagnostic information and we'll get it fixed in no time".
In a sigh of relief, you quickly head to your garage and use 1 of the the remaining 3 percent of your battery charge to send diagnostic data to Tesla...
12 weeks later, you're frustrated because you've been driving a sub-standard rental car, and you call Tesla again. "Why haven't you fixed this, yet?!". They reply, "We have! We just finished the update you've been waiting for. Go have a look!".
You run to the garage and plug the car in to the wall. You get in and look at the screen to see if it's charging. Your Model S's computer welcomes you with a message:
Drive with your friends now with Tesla Hello!
You can now see where your friends are while you drive!
Is this actually a problem that's really crying out for a solution? I mean, I can't say I do collaborative remote planning of trips or shopping online very often at all, but on the rare occasions that I have, sending an email or an instant message of some sort with links in it really does mostly seem to do the trick ("Do you prefer <url> or <url>?" - "I like the first one" - "Great, I'll buy that, thanks").
I feel like that's typical of most new apps/websites coming out. Trying to solve non-problems. That's why we never jumped onto using Slack at work. And now I'm feeling a bit validated about that decision, seeing as just a year later everyone's flocking away from it.
I'm thankful to Mozilla to produce multi-platform software libre, but I also have some comments about their current priorities.
I think Firefox should try to gain users again with a good browser that it's fast and has great features expected in a browser. In this chart you can see how Chrome users increments and Firefox users decrement [1].
A feature to chat, call and share my screen it's not a feature that I expect from a browser. A button to store bookmarks in a third-party service it's not a feature that I expect in a browser.
A good printing functionality or to save a page as PDF it's something that I would expect from a browser (you can save a page as PDF in Firefox for Android but not in desktop).
Last year I made a little web project[2] that would take a group of images and generate a printable calendar. I'm fluent in CSS and HTML and it was pretty easy to make. To my surprise, Firefox has the same print dialog like from Firefox 1.0. I wasn't able to generate a decent pdf from their printing dialog, which was extremely basic and without a preview support.
Chrome and Safari were pretty good and I was able to get very good results. They both show you a preview of the page before sending it to print.
I am surprised to see that Firefox invests time and effort in things like VR[3] while lacking a good printing experience (I think a good printing experience would help lots of more people in concrete ways).
Finally, after seeing how they abandon projects like Persona, FirefoxOS or Thunderbird, I'm not very prone to invest time in their projects that maybe they will end up abandoning (I have the same feeling with Google).
Anyway, this is intended as feedback and hoping that they will start listening users about what they want from their browsers. Right now seems the opposite, Mozilla creative people trying to convince users that they want the things that they come up with.
Firefox bundles Pocket and this, and these are irremovable, without maintaining one's own builds. Actually, Chromium's default install is better at respecting my freedom than Firefox. This is incompatible with their mottos:
> We make it Firefox. You make it your own. -- The features you love. The privacy you trust. Our most customizable Firefox for Android yet. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/android/
I don't understand what happened to Firefox or how they so comprehensively lost their direction.
The whole rationale of the browser was to be something small, tight and easily extensible and to get away from the unreliability of Netscape.
Now we learn they're deprecating full themes, changing plugins to be more limited (but again becoming more like Chrome), and filling the browser with pointless at best features. I can't recall ever wanting to share browsing. Screens when coding or helping sure, but it's a solved problem, so keep it and the kitchen sink out of the browser.
It's probably why its becoming so slow and flaky. The two key problems it was intended to fix.
As I state there, Firefox Hello's user experience (before this change) was significantly superior to both Skype and Google Hangouts. But they seem intent on shipping a barely needed feature instead of providing excellent and usable video chat (where no other platform comes close, IMHO).
When I last used it a few weeks ago, the "feature" was a disaster -- every time you switch tabs the other person you're chatting with would see exactly the page you see. This should be an opt-in feature, not a possibly opt-out one! (they claim that in future versions there will be a way to disable tab-sharing... though I don't see it currently)
Does anyone else remember Excite.com's chat application from ~20 years ago, which has the ability for people who were all on the same web page could chat amongst each other. I'm pretty sure you could navigate across pages and bring people with you, too. Very early precursor to this. I thought it was a lot of fun back then, but I was 11 years old.
Yes - I definitely remember shared browsing some time back in the mid/late 90's but I couldn't remember the app that did it. Excite doesn't ring a bell though, maybe there were more?
[+] [-] ktamura|10 years ago|reply
To be sure, Firefox isn't the worst by many metrics, but it's no longer the stand-out that it was circa 2005-2008. That's why Firefox users left it for Chrome.
And here we are in 2016, I feel that Firefox has a legitimate chance of fighting back if they get their act together. Chrome has become heavy on resource usage while Safari can be sluggish at times. Microsoft has done a great job with Edge but it's bound to Windows 10. This is the opportunity that Firefox should seize.
Yet, they seem to be permanently confused about what they want to do. Chucking Firefox OS was a brave and laudable choice (I say this as a former user, not just an owner, of Firefox OS). But then they work on this? Seriously? Just keep your heads down and concentrate your resources on making Firefox faster and more efficient. Everything else will come with it.
[+] [-] azinman2|10 years ago|reply
Eventually chrome became mainstream, Google started advertising it on their homepage, and features started becoming a priority over speed. At some point the benchmark test case for load time broke and no one fixed it, and things started to slide.
I'm hoping servo provides the necessary investment and juice to restore Firefox to a good browser again (after many, many years).
[+] [-] Aldo_MX|10 years ago|reply
The documentation seems to be outdated, there seems to be an A/B testing right now, and it's recommended to turn off some extensions[2], but this is how I forced e10s to be turned on in `about:config` in the beta:
[1] https://wiki.mozilla.org/Electrolysis[2] https://www.arewee10syet.com/
[+] [-] mdibaiee|10 years ago|reply
I'm pretty sure Firefox will be faster than any other browser once Servo is used inside Firefox instead of Gecko, check this out:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11175258
[+] [-] have_faith|10 years ago|reply
We live in a world now where the browser that comes with your computer/phone/tablet is usually good enough for most people. Firefox isn't even a consideration anymore, and I say that as someone that uses Firefox as their main browser.
Firefox's popularity grew when IE was seen as bad even by non-technical users. There's not much selling points for the average person to replace their default browser anymore.
[+] [-] bitmapbrother|10 years ago|reply
Visiting The Verge, Hacker News and Ars Technica yields the following usage:
[+] [-] otabdeveloper|10 years ago|reply
No, the real reason is Google's highly aggressive 'bundling' (i.e. crapware) strategy.
[+] [-] eps|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] fpgaminer|10 years ago|reply
I agree that Firefox's performance is quite bad these days, but Mozilla is already working on that (with Servo). Pouring more devs into it is not likely to make progress on that front faster (too many cooks). They could have taken a more gradual approach to the problem, by slowly evolving the existing codebase, chipping away at performance. But they've been trying that for a long time. Servo is, in my opinion, the better plan. And with it also comes a massive security hardening. It's a long road, but one worth waiting for.
So, Mozilla has already dedicated the necessary resources to handle performance. What are they to do with the rest of their company's resources, and most importantly, what can they do to grow the company? Firefox Hello and other projects like it are part of that effort. We may not agree that Firefox Hello is a good idea. Personally I don't have a use for it either. But bless them for trying and experimenting.
And let's not forget that Firefox is a "free" product. I can't imagine Mozilla is swimming in money. They don't have the resources that Google or Microsoft have, and yet they still have a solid chance at leap-frogging their competition with Servo.
Personally, I continue to use Firefox as my daily driver, because it appears to respect my privacy more than Chrome, despite its performance issues.
[+] [-] panic|10 years ago|reply
Mozilla recently jettisoned Thunderbird, its email client, mostly because of its impact on Firefox development (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/mozilla.governance/kAy...). Wouldn't a great native email client be a better way to grow the company than features like this? And shouldn't features be added to make the product better, not just because there are people sitting around with nothing else to do?
[+] [-] gkya|10 years ago|reply
About since 1992 there is a very good tool for sharing tabs: their URLs. Anything that can't be shared with a URL is probably too private to be shared anyways.
I'm a user, I don't care about Rust. Firefox may well be implemented in some object oriented brainfuck, but as long as it does not tuck into its interface irrelevant stuff that I can't remove, I won't touch Firefox. I actually recently considered a switch, and tried FF45, and what I saw: Pocket and this Hello, there, impossible to actually remove. I'd be fine with an addon that they officially developed/backed, and it'd be okay if they advertised it a bit, but this way, no. They certainly lost some people other than me with this inconsiderate manners of theirs.
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] idobai|10 years ago|reply
I've checked out servo and compiled and started it in release mode - it required 600MB RAM and 700% CPU to load google(!) with the same speed as my little firefox with tons of extensions - forgive my ignorance but I've expected more from the hype. I've tested some other websites but no luck - Servo is a heavy and slow beast.
> I am throughly impressed with Rust, the language, the ecosystem, and most importantly the way it's maintained by Mozilla.
Rust programs consume so much resources that it could just use a GC instead of the complex manual memory management. The syntax and the standard library is as 'modern' as in cpp - I'm not as impressed as I was a fan of Mozilla.
> Personally, I continue to use Firefox as my daily driver, because it appears to respect my privacy more than Chrome, despite its performance issues.
Search the internet for optimizations, my firefox feels like as fast as chrome - sometime even faster. It just needs some tweaks. Even if ff would be much slower I wouldn't leave it because of firefox's wonderful extension platform and its nice complete theme suites.
[+] [-] educar|10 years ago|reply
But look at them today. Firefox OS. Ads on the initial browser page. Pocket. They were extremely slow to catch up with multi-process tabs. And firefox just freezes up arbitrarily periodically. So very sad.
Performance issues aside, Firefox has not been big on my privacy issues either. Running sync server is so incredibly complicated and it doesn't need to be that way. All it's doing is stash bookmark/password data and the amount of configuration required to run this on your own is mind numbing :/ Just see the wiki pages and they all say the pages need work.
[+] [-] mangeletti|10 years ago|reply
In a sigh of relief, you quickly head to your garage and use 1 of the the remaining 3 percent of your battery charge to send diagnostic data to Tesla...
12 weeks later, you're frustrated because you've been driving a sub-standard rental car, and you call Tesla again. "Why haven't you fixed this, yet?!". They reply, "We have! We just finished the update you've been waiting for. Go have a look!".
You run to the garage and plug the car in to the wall. You get in and look at the screen to see if it's charging. Your Model S's computer welcomes you with a message:
Now, your battery is at 0.5%.That's Firefox.
[+] [-] coldtea|10 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/os/ [2] https://login.persona.org/
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] bshimmin|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sdegutis|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sanbor|10 years ago|reply
I think Firefox should try to gain users again with a good browser that it's fast and has great features expected in a browser. In this chart you can see how Chrome users increments and Firefox users decrement [1].
A feature to chat, call and share my screen it's not a feature that I expect from a browser. A button to store bookmarks in a third-party service it's not a feature that I expect in a browser.
A good printing functionality or to save a page as PDF it's something that I would expect from a browser (you can save a page as PDF in Firefox for Android but not in desktop).
Last year I made a little web project[2] that would take a group of images and generate a printable calendar. I'm fluent in CSS and HTML and it was pretty easy to make. To my surprise, Firefox has the same print dialog like from Firefox 1.0. I wasn't able to generate a decent pdf from their printing dialog, which was extremely basic and without a preview support.
Chrome and Safari were pretty good and I was able to get very good results. They both show you a preview of the page before sending it to print.
I am surprised to see that Firefox invests time and effort in things like VR[3] while lacking a good printing experience (I think a good printing experience would help lots of more people in concrete ways).
Finally, after seeing how they abandon projects like Persona, FirefoxOS or Thunderbird, I'm not very prone to invest time in their projects that maybe they will end up abandoning (I have the same feeling with Google).
Anyway, this is intended as feedback and hoping that they will start listening users about what they want from their browsers. Right now seems the opposite, Mozilla creative people trying to convince users that they want the things that they come up with.
[1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers#/m...)
[2](https://github.com/sanbor/printable-calendar)
[3](http://mozvr.com/)
[+] [-] gkya|10 years ago|reply
> Committed to you, your privacy and an open Web. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/desktop
> We make it Firefox. You make it your own. -- The features you love. The privacy you trust. Our most customizable Firefox for Android yet. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/android/
[+] [-] sp332|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anexprogrammer|10 years ago|reply
The whole rationale of the browser was to be something small, tight and easily extensible and to get away from the unreliability of Netscape.
Now we learn they're deprecating full themes, changing plugins to be more limited (but again becoming more like Chrome), and filling the browser with pointless at best features. I can't recall ever wanting to share browsing. Screens when coding or helping sure, but it's a solved problem, so keep it and the kitchen sink out of the browser.
It's probably why its becoming so slow and flaky. The two key problems it was intended to fix.
[+] [-] dmm|10 years ago|reply
I see both version of this statement all the time: "Chrome is so slow. I switched to firefox![1]" "Firefox is so slow. I switched to chrome!"
What's going on? Do browsers get full of history/cookies/profiles/plugins and slow down.
Is it just the act of switching that speeds things up?
[1] http://gizmodo.com/fuck-it-im-going-back-to-firefox-16854258...
[+] [-] marmaduke|10 years ago|reply
why all the whining here?
[+] [-] CaptSpify|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ssivark|10 years ago|reply
As I state there, Firefox Hello's user experience (before this change) was significantly superior to both Skype and Google Hangouts. But they seem intent on shipping a barely needed feature instead of providing excellent and usable video chat (where no other platform comes close, IMHO).
When I last used it a few weeks ago, the "feature" was a disaster -- every time you switch tabs the other person you're chatting with would see exactly the page you see. This should be an opt-in feature, not a possibly opt-out one! (they claim that in future versions there will be a way to disable tab-sharing... though I don't see it currently)
</rant>
[+] [-] callahad|10 years ago|reply
Hello only supports 1:1 chats, not group ones, so this may not work immediately for you.
(Edit: Link removed. It was nice meeting those of you who dropped by!)
[+] [-] marpstar|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dahdum|10 years ago|reply
I thought it was pretty useless back then...
[+] [-] ape4|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sp332|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] quantisan|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 15charlimit|10 years ago|reply
Why? Keep that garbage out of the browser. Everything is too "social" and integrated already.
Just give me a "dumb" viewer - nothing more, nothing less.
[+] [-] chris_wot|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] callahad|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] d33|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goda90|10 years ago|reply