It's sad to see that Mozilla considers desktop email clients as outdated. It's true that most people use phone apps and webmail, but in enterprises the story is completely different. MS Outlook rules in many places, but I'd bet there are at least a few million people using Thunderbird as their desktop mail client, more so in a (slightly "hostile") MS Exchange environment.
If Thunderbird were to really evolve and provide what people have been asking for for a very, very, very long time, it is good calendaring that "just works" with MS Exchange (I know about the extensions and external applications available, but none of them provide a seamless experience or all features that are required for calendaring).
Post Edward Snowden's revelations, more people need a good way to do encrypted mails well too (that's complex and is also more of a user experience issue, but an organization like the erstwhile Mozilla Messaging could have spent a good amount of effort on it). Along with this, we would have encrypted chats (since chat is already part of Thunderbird), encrypted voice calls, etc. That would be phenomenal!
IMO, Mozilla really lost focus on Thunderbird long before it decided to shelve it as a "community driven project".
Mozilla of today is run by designers, webheads and "social" personas.
As for encrypted email, it could be made very simple. When you set up an account in Thunderbird, have it ask a simple question "do you have an encryption key?". If the user hits no, generate the key pair, and insert the public key by default.
Then starts harvesting public keys from incoming emails, and encrypt by default if sending to an address that has a known public key.
Thunderbird has been the poor, forgotten relation over at Mozilla for a long time now. Given the endless stream of ridiculous decisions for Firefox, over the last few years, I can't bring myself to see that as a bad thing.
I'd like to hope that Thunderbird can thrive in a new home, but somehow I'm not optimistic.
And when you say "enterprise", think also of small and medium businesses. There are many advantages to webmail, but I keep running into smalls and mediums who use shared hosting for email (IMAP and (shudder) POP3), but can't truly leverage "Horde" or other open source webmails. Their options are Outlook if they have enough licenses ($$), or Thunderbird if they don't.
Yes, many move to Google's infrastructure if they can, but not everyone is able to or wants to. Thunderbird is one of the remaining alternatives.
A problem I foresee is Firefox's attempts to move away from XUL.[0] Firefox might just about manage that move, but who will do that work for Thunderbird? And once Firefox moves away from XUL, who will maintain XUL for Thunderbird's sake?
[0] Firefox is still XUL-based for now, but I think the writing's on the wall given the security issues with XUL and XPCOM, and Firefox's move away from XUL/XPCOM-based extensions.
Not only that, but I'm also concerned about the future of addons like Pentadactyl [0] and Vimperator [1] that use XUL.
I know the user base of these addons is not anywhere as big as Thunderbird, but I can't really imagine using Firefox without Vimperator; and it's already started to break in Firefox 45.
These products aren't perfect, but they allow the traditional strengths of firefox (powerful extensions based on XUL/XPCOM) as opposed to the new chromification of the firefox extension api. Also, you don't have the mozilla politics and constant moral hectoring (if you read the firefox start page or go to mozilla's website, I think you might know what I mean).
Yes, this is why the issue has become urgent right now. Thunderbird barely has the resources to keep up with the underlying changes to Gecko with each release. It has nowhere near the resources needed to deal with the deprecation of XUL. I am grateful to the Thunderbird community for continuing to maintain a stable email client over the years, but it has been a long time since a new release has brought any new feature that impacted me. From following bugs on some features I would like to see, I get the impression that the code base is old and full of overly intertwined components that make changes difficult. One example is this bug opened eight years ago about making it possible to write emails in a new tab rather than a separate window: https://bugzil.la/449299
I hope that once the Thunderbird code base is split from Firefox the churn for the developers will be reduced and they can spend more time on improving performance and adding new features. I do worry though that Thunderbird could become less secure over time without the Firefox team maintain security issues in XUL.
I find it hard to believe that another organization would be a better home for Thunderbird than Mozilla, but some of the language in the blog post and report is disappointing to me. Mainly, the points about Thunderbird needing to be self-funding and use its own infrastructure. If the code bases split and Mozilla focuses its advocacy around Firefox, surely that should be enough to unencumber Firefox and give it a (in my opinion slim) chance to remain relevant. Mozilla really values Thunderbird so little that it can't give it any resources at all? Even when it has all of the infrastructure needed by Thunderbird already set up?
Well, they either have to rewrite Thunderbird's UI, or maintain a fork of Gecko that still supports XUL. I have no idea which one of these would be less work.
My between-the-lines reading of this post is that this is really what is leading the split between firefox and thunderbird. Not enough people at mozilla care about thunderbird and so either they split and stay with xul or die.
Of course I don't know for sure (I don't even use thunderbird).
I honestly hope that LibreOffice will take over the development of Thunderbird. They seem to be doing an excellent job at running a successful open source project and Mozilla looks like it lost its course a couple of years ago (before someone asks me why I think that: https://blog.r3bl.me/en/mozilla-dissatisfaction/)
There are some parallels between LibreOffice and Thunderbird that make The Documentation Foundation's adoption of Thunderbird attractive.
1. Both LibreOffice and Thunderbird are desktop implementations of applications for which most of the recent momentum has been behind web-based implementations (Google docs, GMail, Office 365, etc.). So TDF is used to the desktop vs. web dynamic.
2. Both LibreOffice and Thunderbird has large installations in business/government environments.
3. Both LibreOffice and Thunderbird started out being governed by different organizations and would be adopted by TDF (slightly different situation for LibreOffice which was a fork, though Thunderbird will be forking off its shared base with Firefox). So TDF is used to adopting legacy code and continuing to evolve it.
That said, I hope the TDF scrutinizes Thunderbird and only takes it on if it is confident that Thunderbird fits into its overall mission and infrastructure. In recent times I have liked what I have seen from TDF and been somewhat disappointed by Mozilla, so I wouldn't Thunderbird to hamper LibreOffice's momentum.
I get the sense that Thunderbird doesn't have cohesive vision or leadershihp: All the big organizational moves seem to be Mozilla's initiative; I don't hear about much happening at Thunderbird, technically or organizationally; and Simon Phipps' report[1] says the following when considering an independent Thunderbird Foundation, and the implication I take is that these issues can't be resolved now:
* Creating a new entity involves resolving all of the
issues currently facing Thunderbird and its community
and then making them concrete in legallybinding bylaws
and articles of association. As such, it is a step best
taken after these things have been resolved, rather than
before.
* With all these things taken into account, I would not
recommend this option as a first step. However, it may
become appropriate in the future for Thunderbird to
separate from its new host and become a full independent
entity, and the ability to do this should be considered
in selecting a new home.
But my concern is based on only an intution plus a few observataions; does anyone know? I don't mean it critically; it's hard to organize and find leadership resources for a volunteer project. Mostly, I'm just concerned about Thunderbird.
Thunderbird makes client-side PGP encryption a little easier at a time in the world where not only governments are harvesting every cat-gif email we send, but also those Valley companies who harvest and analyze practically everything we do, just to send us "better ads".
I do commend those volunteers who didn't sit on the internet and makes comments like the rest of us, but took charge and kept Thunderbird alive.
Firefox disrupted browser market and now Chrome/IE are making a trio not too far from each other, it is now a uphill battle for Mozilla.
Thunderbird is the only choice across platform for Desktop usage. I use it daily and don't mind paying for it.
On the other hand, since Microsoft is porting everything to Linux nowadays it may one day port Outlook to Linux, who knows though I have never trusted them and I have not used it for centuries.
Not likely. All MS have done towards Linux have been aimed at Linux on the server/cloud.
Their latest move is about retaining web devs that use Ubuntu LXD for their cloud servers by giving them a desktop development environment within Window that match their cloud environment.
Full blown Linux on desktop, and mobile (hello android), is still under attack.
"Success for Firefox means continued relevance in the mass consumer market as a way for people to access, shape and feel safe across many devices."
Gah! No! It should mean that Firefox continues to be an awesome, customizable web browser! Why does all this wishy-washy "feelings" crap have to creep into their mission statement?
I'm not surprised Thunderbird is breaking off considering how much the Web-only approach to just about every service is in full effect. How do you serve up ads in an email client without pissing everyone off? Obviously you can't do it so Thunderbird has to go!
Also, for most people the email address they have isn't for legitimate correspondence considering how many people use Snap Chat, FB Messenger, WeChat, and the like to keep in contact with people. Why bother making an email client even it's available in the app store (phone) when folks will sooner install an IM app? It's not to say email, conceptually as a form of communication, has no uses. It's just that email as it stands today sorely needs refactoring to include everything from IMs (multimedia based or just pure text) to long form correspondence with varying degrees of confidentiality (encryption) and possibly including some form of file-sharing linking (not so much directly tied into the client/server protocols). I'm not sure the current email server and client protocols can handle such a refactoring without breaking backwards compatibility (therefore pissing off everyone who is still using email). Some email clients do some of the things I'm already suggesting. Some of them do it very well, but honestly am I off the mark on this line of thought? I have to think possibly I am, but I'll leave it to you all to consider.
Can someone here comment on why creating & maintaining a solid local desktop email client is such a costly, moving target, such that it has required an organization the size of Mozilla to pursue it and get it "nearly" right? Is the bulk of Thunderbird maintenance work happening in its "HTML render/js component(s)"? If so, could we stabilize on a Thunderbird without HTML render/js support, providing it only as optional add-on?
I guess the main question is who will actually own the Thunderbird license after the split? If the ownership of most of the code remains at Mozilla but Mozilla doesn't care, what would be the motivation of any funded entity to continue the development of Thunderbird?
thunderbird used to be a great mail client, but became extremely sluggish and I think it's also bloated. So I moved to claws-mail and mutt, they are lighting fast.
[+] [-] newscracker|10 years ago|reply
If Thunderbird were to really evolve and provide what people have been asking for for a very, very, very long time, it is good calendaring that "just works" with MS Exchange (I know about the extensions and external applications available, but none of them provide a seamless experience or all features that are required for calendaring).
Post Edward Snowden's revelations, more people need a good way to do encrypted mails well too (that's complex and is also more of a user experience issue, but an organization like the erstwhile Mozilla Messaging could have spent a good amount of effort on it). Along with this, we would have encrypted chats (since chat is already part of Thunderbird), encrypted voice calls, etc. That would be phenomenal!
IMO, Mozilla really lost focus on Thunderbird long before it decided to shelve it as a "community driven project".
[+] [-] digi_owl|10 years ago|reply
As for encrypted email, it could be made very simple. When you set up an account in Thunderbird, have it ask a simple question "do you have an encryption key?". If the user hits no, generate the key pair, and insert the public key by default.
Then starts harvesting public keys from incoming emails, and encrypt by default if sending to an address that has a known public key.
[+] [-] anexprogrammer|10 years ago|reply
I'd like to hope that Thunderbird can thrive in a new home, but somehow I'm not optimistic.
[+] [-] mwexler|10 years ago|reply
Yes, many move to Google's infrastructure if they can, but not everyone is able to or wants to. Thunderbird is one of the remaining alternatives.
[+] [-] TazeTSchnitzel|10 years ago|reply
[0] Firefox is still XUL-based for now, but I think the writing's on the wall given the security issues with XUL and XPCOM, and Firefox's move away from XUL/XPCOM-based extensions.
[+] [-] aban|10 years ago|reply
I know the user base of these addons is not anywhere as big as Thunderbird, but I can't really imagine using Firefox without Vimperator; and it's already started to break in Firefox 45.
[0]: https://github.com/5digits/dactyl
[1]: https://github.com/vimperator/vimperator-labs
[+] [-] vancan1ty|10 years ago|reply
These products aren't perfect, but they allow the traditional strengths of firefox (powerful extensions based on XUL/XPCOM) as opposed to the new chromification of the firefox extension api. Also, you don't have the mozilla politics and constant moral hectoring (if you read the firefox start page or go to mozilla's website, I think you might know what I mean).
[+] [-] wsha|10 years ago|reply
I hope that once the Thunderbird code base is split from Firefox the churn for the developers will be reduced and they can spend more time on improving performance and adding new features. I do worry though that Thunderbird could become less secure over time without the Firefox team maintain security issues in XUL.
I find it hard to believe that another organization would be a better home for Thunderbird than Mozilla, but some of the language in the blog post and report is disappointing to me. Mainly, the points about Thunderbird needing to be self-funding and use its own infrastructure. If the code bases split and Mozilla focuses its advocacy around Firefox, surely that should be enough to unencumber Firefox and give it a (in my opinion slim) chance to remain relevant. Mozilla really values Thunderbird so little that it can't give it any resources at all? Even when it has all of the infrastructure needed by Thunderbird already set up?
[+] [-] aipauniX|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jccalhoun|10 years ago|reply
Of course I don't know for sure (I don't even use thunderbird).
[+] [-] chinathrow|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] r3bl|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wsha|10 years ago|reply
1. Both LibreOffice and Thunderbird are desktop implementations of applications for which most of the recent momentum has been behind web-based implementations (Google docs, GMail, Office 365, etc.). So TDF is used to the desktop vs. web dynamic.
2. Both LibreOffice and Thunderbird has large installations in business/government environments.
3. Both LibreOffice and Thunderbird started out being governed by different organizations and would be adopted by TDF (slightly different situation for LibreOffice which was a fork, though Thunderbird will be forking off its shared base with Firefox). So TDF is used to adopting legacy code and continuing to evolve it.
That said, I hope the TDF scrutinizes Thunderbird and only takes it on if it is confident that Thunderbird fits into its overall mission and infrastructure. In recent times I have liked what I have seen from TDF and been somewhat disappointed by Mozilla, so I wouldn't Thunderbird to hamper LibreOffice's momentum.
[+] [-] hackuser|10 years ago|reply
[1] https://blog.mozilla.org/thunderbird/files/2016/04/Finding-a...
[+] [-] phantom_oracle|10 years ago|reply
Thunderbird makes client-side PGP encryption a little easier at a time in the world where not only governments are harvesting every cat-gif email we send, but also those Valley companies who harvest and analyze practically everything we do, just to send us "better ads".
I do commend those volunteers who didn't sit on the internet and makes comments like the rest of us, but took charge and kept Thunderbird alive.
[+] [-] darkclarity|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ausjke|10 years ago|reply
Thunderbird is the only choice across platform for Desktop usage. I use it daily and don't mind paying for it.
On the other hand, since Microsoft is porting everything to Linux nowadays it may one day port Outlook to Linux, who knows though I have never trusted them and I have not used it for centuries.
Please keep Thunderbird evolving ahead.
[+] [-] digi_owl|10 years ago|reply
Their latest move is about retaining web devs that use Ubuntu LXD for their cloud servers by giving them a desktop development environment within Window that match their cloud environment.
Full blown Linux on desktop, and mobile (hello android), is still under attack.
[+] [-] AndyMcConachie|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jonah|10 years ago|reply
What other "serious" email clients are out there for Mac?
[+] [-] pjmlp|10 years ago|reply
I can't really stand the webmail clients, other than a quick check at an Internet café, and profit from email aggregation.
[+] [-] icebraining|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EdSharkey|10 years ago|reply
Firefox is your iOS -- if you need to gut the Lion team for a year or three in order to ship a stable world-beater, then DO THAT!
Maybe circle back to email in a few years after Firefox stabilizes, that would be cool too.
[+] [-] tomc1985|10 years ago|reply
Gah! No! It should mean that Firefox continues to be an awesome, customizable web browser! Why does all this wishy-washy "feelings" crap have to creep into their mission statement?
[+] [-] untog|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] criddell|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cptskippy|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] norea-armozel|10 years ago|reply
Also, for most people the email address they have isn't for legitimate correspondence considering how many people use Snap Chat, FB Messenger, WeChat, and the like to keep in contact with people. Why bother making an email client even it's available in the app store (phone) when folks will sooner install an IM app? It's not to say email, conceptually as a form of communication, has no uses. It's just that email as it stands today sorely needs refactoring to include everything from IMs (multimedia based or just pure text) to long form correspondence with varying degrees of confidentiality (encryption) and possibly including some form of file-sharing linking (not so much directly tied into the client/server protocols). I'm not sure the current email server and client protocols can handle such a refactoring without breaking backwards compatibility (therefore pissing off everyone who is still using email). Some email clients do some of the things I'm already suggesting. Some of them do it very well, but honestly am I off the mark on this line of thought? I have to think possibly I am, but I'll leave it to you all to consider.
[+] [-] j1vms|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] r3bl|10 years ago|reply
I highly recommend this blog post about a guy trying to make its own email client and failing to do so miserably because emails are such a mess : http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2015/02/...
Edit: removed the Pocket redirect from the URL.
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] hackuser|10 years ago|reply
KDE is not the right place for Thunderbid
http://www.elpauer.org/2016/04/kde-is-not-the-right-place-fo...
[+] [-] breakingcups|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] acqq|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thomasrossi|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ramgorur|10 years ago|reply