TTIP Documents Revealed

[cmarschner]

The estimated benefit of TTIP is 400,000 jobs and 0.5% GDP for the EU. Not much.

Apparently, the few selected MoP in Germany who were given access to the drafts had a few hours to look at a 1000+ pages, in English legalese, with a dictionary but no internet access.

Apparently, the drafts were full of certain spelling errors. The assumption was that they were personalized and injected on purpose such that photographs could be traced back to the origin.

Source - German media coverage.

[chiaro]

>The estimated benefit of TTIP is 400,000 jobs and 0.5% GDP for the EU.

My support for most post-globalisation trade liberalisation treaties tends to be lukewarm. However, this can't really be called "not much". 400,000 jobs against a working population of ~300M is a decrease in unemployment by .13 percentage points. 0.5% increase in GDP is still ~70B that otherwise wouldn't be there.

[Symbiote]

What would those MPs lose if they leaked the text? It seems like a vote-winning action...

[ulfw]

That's the opposite of a 'democracy'.

[marmaduke]

Why would the EU comprise citizens' health to sell a few more cars? Is it American investors on both sides?

[RobertoG]

This is not an EU against USA thing.

It's more a corporations against the people thing. The problem those treaties solve is that they lock future legislative changes at the national level.

After signing it, how are you going to change it? It will be very hard and we will accept it because it's like "things work in the real world".

[mtgx]

And the EU may not even gain all that much from car sales, either, if the EU car companies don't get serious about EVs. TTIP may just make it easier for Tesla to sell more cars into the EU.

[Aelinsaar]

I'm not sure that they will. The Brits at least don't seem to be interested in presenting their nethers for this chopping block.

[matt_wulfeck]

> The U.S. government concurrently has criticized the fundamental prevention principal of the EU Consumer Centre which protects 500 million Europeans from consuming genetically modified food and hormone-treated meat.

Good for the EU. If only our government showed the same care for its own citizens.

[zavi]

> The U.S., for example, demands that statutory prohibitions on products to protect human health should only be allowed to be passed if it has been scientifically proven that these products really are harmful.

Sounds like a reasonable argument.

[thesimon]

Related to food: The German site says the US are pushing to remove the protected designation of origin. "Parma" ham could be manufactured in Kentucky, Camembert in New York and Champagne in California. Crazy.

[tootie]

That's a matter of opinion. An opinion unsupported by evidence.

[erikb]

Yeah, reading that my first assumption was that US citizens suddenly would also be against the details of TTIP.

[prodemo]

I wonder whats the estimated damage of democracy to the western economies (seriously). Wouldn't it be way better to let the heads of big cooperations or their relatives rule the western world? This way trade agreements like TTIP could be done in a more open way. Nobody would be able to complain as they got no vote and legislation would be easier! Also we could forbid lobbyism and replace it with a more open and honest "Pay for Law". So vote for more open legislation by abolishing democracy. Remember making life easier for the best and richest among us is the most nobel goal in life.

[ghostDancer]

And they call this free market. US government bullying for benefit of the corporations and not even for the US people. This is going back to middle ages , the landlords and the peasants.

[edko]

How about some reciprocation on immigration laws as well? How fair and free can this agreement be if the immigration flow in one of the directions is so much easier than in the other?

[tomp]

Which direction is that (honest question, I suspect US -> EU being easier, but I recall companies having trouble "importing" Americans as well...)?

[aw3c2]

All I see is a single post and an image of a container ship, is my browser broken or are there no documents?

[weinzierl]

> The material, consisting of 240 pages, was provided by Greenpeace and will be published this coming Monday.

[kzrdude]

Hit the International Home or German Edition links on the left hand side. Looks like the german newspaper has a lot more articles though.

[marak830]

Well doesn't that agreement sound bloody delightful. I am looking forward to reading the full text.

[onetimePete]

Assuming TTIP fails, how will the next contract to attack democracy be called? QTIP? UTIP? COUP? GRACE?

At least put some effort into naming. To have your rights grind away so slowly and being coerced like a mule to even thread that mill that maims you.. Im for a law that forbids to discuss content-similar contracts that have been downvoted for at least 8 years.

[Qantourisc]

I just wondered about one thing. Why when the US asked (forced ?) the EU to negotiate in secret didn't the EU answer with a f.u. ? Also who are these people that agree to do this in secret ?

[mcv]

The EU isn't quite the democratic paradise either. We too have corporate lobbyists writing laws, and politicians and officials negotiating behind closed doors.

On average, the EU is more transparent than the EU, and politicians tend to feel more like they really should be representing the people, but it's really a sliding scale with the US just a bit further down than the EU.

I really hope transparency about the TTIP negotiations will help turn this around in both the EU and the US.

[fsloth]

US has a pretty strong political leverage in most of europe. 1.Believable defence against Russia is built on the existence of Nato and the US forces it brings. 2. I guess there is still a sense of goodwill involved. US funds helped to rebuild europe after ww2 to stopgap Soviet Union. 3. Economic threat (not direct, but latent). 4. Personal reputation. I guess being too anti US is considered a faux pass in various places.

[auganov]

That overzealous secrecy around TTIP is a shame. It doesn't look like such a bad piece of legislation. The overall theme seems to be some deregulation on EU side (as generally EU is the over-regulated side) and bringing regulatory standards closer together. The IP protections are the most concerning part so far IMO?

I don't know much about that kind of negotiations, the secrecy might as well be the right strategy to push it through I guess?

[inDigiNeous]

The most alarming features of this proposed legislation are the facts that it contains this:

".. it also contains an ‘investor protection’ provision allowing corporations to effectively sue governments for taking action to harm their business."

(source: http://www.publicfinanceinternational.org/news/2016/02/ttip-...)

So .. effectively, this could mean that a corporation could overrule a government in legislation if it would be harming it's profits.

The big problem with this for example here in Finland is that through these measure big corporations could try to take over the nations natural resources, like water and forest, which are and should be protected by local laws. But through this kind of legal means, these corporations could be allowed to sue the government over the loss of a profit due to protecting legislation, in order just to make a profit out of it. Which is complete and total bullshit.

[tobltobs]

" the secrecy might as well be the right strategy to push it through I guess"

Why not canceling this whole concept of democracy.

[spdy]

"(as generally EU is the over-regulated side)

Why is regulation a bad thing? These rules exist for a reason in health/food for example.

[onetimePete]

I am a citizen, i voted for those regulations, these are the laws i wanted, you try to step upon.

[kbart]

"generally EU is the over-regulated side"

We usually call it consumer protection here and most of EU citizens like the way it is.