5$ per hour is practically minimum wage here in Slovenia except that you also get compulsory health insurance and pension contribution on top of that. And it's not extremely hard to get a job.
I wonder why anyone would repeatedly fly to the US to work for that money. He was maybe getting or was promised something more.
Also funny how they call us an "impoverished country". In my eyes an average Joe has much better quality of life in Slovenia than in the US :). I would say the problems start if you want to me more than the average Joe.
I agree regarding the ridiculous "impoverished country" thing. Slovenia's standard of living is certainly better than at least some parts of the United States. (I grew up in Italy and visited Slovenia several times).
> Also funny how they call us an "impoverished country". In my eyes an average Joe has much better quality of life in Slovenia than in the US :). I would say the problems start if you want to me more than the average Joe.
Creating labels and positioning the individual who was hurt as a victim, coming from an "impoverished country" is more attractive then reporting a different ("positive") point of view.
In defense of their reporting, however, they're measuring minimum wage of Slovenia vs minimum wage in USA, which is less, with no context (that you supplied)
I would assume that they were lied to or deceived about the hours that they had to work given the monthly wage that was quoted in the article. I'm also guessing that since most of these workers came on visas, they probably thought that they could seek better work once they were in the US.
It is a rather complex problem and it needs to be solved, but I do not see how it's Tesla's fault. . .
First off Tesla chose Eisenmann for the expansion and in return they subcontracted another company which then brought in the the workers for the illegal work. Given those circumstances I believe Eisenmann knew what was going on if not they would have never made such a low bid, because they would have risked paying out of their pocket. Therefore, Eisenmann is responsible and Tesla should not be held accountable. . .
Aside from that what would be a good way to counter this specific problem? The people applying for the visa obviously can lie so it would be pointless to start from the application process because anyone from any other country can lie; it would be harder to verify if they really are coming as supervisors. . .maybe the companies that are working on large projects should be audited by their local authorities to make sure they have qualified workers? What would be a good solution for this problem of H1-B workers being used for cheap labor which in term is stealing Americans jobs?
I flatly do not believe that Tesla did not know what was going on. The bid being as low as it was means that the savings were coming from somewhere. Presumably the materials used all had specifications so hard to cut corners there. That leaves labor. Come on, maybe they aren't legally responsible but morally and ethically they made a choice here.
Do you think that Tesla, with all their engineering, job costing, materials science, and cost accounting talent, is unable to estimate the work needed to install the paint shop mentioned in the article?
There is no "magic pixie dust" that Eisenmann had, that they used to sprinkle over their materials that would make installation of the mechanical systems any less labor-intensive than their competitors.
Either Tesla knew (but chose wilful blindness) or Tesla is incompetent. Which is it?
>Therefore, Eisenmann is responsible and Tesla should not be held accountable.
Why not? Otherwise, follow the logic: sub-contractor after sub-contractor until you reach the bottom and you've got some fly-by-night operation that you can't hold accountable.
Everyone involved shares the blame, including Tesla
Belgium, proud of it's social protection and security, has the same problem. Delhaize Belgium bought it's chickens from an industrial farm. That farm hired a company who brought in workers for help during the harvest.
The workers were from Bulgaria, standard of living there's much lower than Slovenia.
Member states of the European Union adhere to the free trade of goods and labor principle. Which meant in this case those Bulgarian workers fell under Bulgarian labor laws.
It's really a complex matter because civil servants accused this company of illegaly employing staff to dodge taxes and cheat social security.
The Labour Appellate Tribunal of Gent imposed severe fines which would have impoverished everyone related, also "normal" workers, to the industrial farm.
The court of cassation ( highest instance court in Belgium )
judged that the court of Gent was wrong.
So the process had to be redone.
The Labour Appelate Tribunal of Antwerp judged that the defendants, Delhaize and that chicken farm, didn't breach the law so they were not guilty. Case closed.
Start rant
I' m wondering if Tesla's case will grab headlines in the European "left"press. If so that indicates that populism uses facts to give you the sentiment that you're a victim of capitalism instead of realising the complexity of postmodern times
End rant
It's similar to the Apple-Foxconn situation. Foxconn was abusing its workers and not Apple, but people felt that Apple was at least partly to blame for the situation and had a responsibility to call for improvements.
It is simple; Tesla should have a supervisor at the construction site that made sure everything was according to their specifications, be it construction or worker issues.
It wouldn't be very difficult for the supervisor to tell that people who don't even speak English aren't legit workers.
As for the solution, place huge fines for all companies involved. That would give motive to Tesla to both inspect their construction and include protection clauses in their contracts.
This isn't a Tesla thing, it's an automotive industry thing (as alluded to in the article). You often see this with foreign car companies, or more specifically, with foreign-based contractors.
Just a little background, first. The car manufacturers often times aren't the ones designing the machines that build their cars. They come up with general plans for the layout and process and then they hire various engineering companies who specialize in that particular manufacturing process. Obviously they work closely with those companies to ensure that the designs meet their requirements.
Those engineering firms will then design, build, and install the equipment. Some of that work is done by sub-contractors. If the engineering company is based outside of the US (in this case, German-based Eisenmann), they are likely to have local workers (nationally or continentally speaking) that they are used to hiring for their projects (because they're familiar with their work, already have contracts set up, have the language issues more or less worked out, etc.). When they get contracts for the US, they are going to want to use the same group of people instead of the more complicated and risky option of trying to build a local team. This is especially true for physical labor (e.g. installation, setup) because you need those people onsite.
So, often times when there's a big automotive construction project you have lots of foreigners happening to show up to the area with tourist visas. The engineering firm provides housing and vehicles so they don't have to worry about that. And they pay them in the country they're based out of.
The manufacturer probably knows it's going on, but they don't ask questions. And I don't think it should necessarily be their responsibility. Sure, if they were held liable they would pay more attention. But you could say the same thing about the contractor as well. From the article, "The company overseeing Tesla’s expansion project — Eisenmann, a German-based manufacturer of industrial systems — also denied in court that it had legal responsibility for Lesnik." Unless someone (anyone in the chain, really) is fined or punished, no one is going bother worrying about it.
> This isn't a Tesla thing, it's an automotive industry thing
No, this is a complete failure of the government in upholding it's responsibility 'thing'.
This is entirely a result of greedy politicians taking corporate money to write laws enabling this, encouraging government agencies to look the other way, and they need to be held responsible.
Why did jobs move overseas ? If I am a business owner it makes absolutely no sense for me to pay 10x wages just for the privilege of hiring american workers. And if Laws do not change to take into account this differential more and more businesses will leave america.
There's all sorts of things that make absolutely no sense for business owners to do, so we have labor laws because business owners can't be trusted to not fuck everything up for society.
This is always a usual problem for tech companies. Truth be told they tell everyone "oh we are doing this", but in reality they are just sub-contracting it. I for a fact know that most popular games are sub-contracted.
That's true with "most" things. In American business culture, there is so much pressure on companies from investors that they have to take every short cut possible to make their numbers.
In addition, the pressure from other countries that are able to produce products at a lower cost because of different labor laws/market, it becomes impossible to "do the right thing".
Why did the title change? It originally matched the headlines title of "THE HIDDEN WORKFORCE EXPANDING TESLA’S FACTORY" and given that tesla is saying they didnt know about it, that seems more accurate
Several years ago, Apple executives stepped up and took responsibility for monitoring and improving substandard labor practices in its Chinese manufacturing plants. Tesla could learn a few things from Apple about business ethics. Some of the Tesla shine has been tarnished by this story, and I hope they decide to conduct an impartial investigation and take action to make sure their subcontractors comply with US labor law.
The most difficult to understand part of the whole Tesla story for me is that they can operate the NUMMI plant in California successfully. I guess the huge capital base which they got essentially for free, and the proximity to Palo Alto HQ, makes up for Bay Area expenses and California regulation.
Sure wouldn't be where I'd choose to put a factory otherwise. From what I've read the low-VOC paint requirements in California lead to the Tesla Model S having inferior paint to Ford/etc (but still better than Nissan Leaf); one minor issue but probably representative.
Wow, I did not expect to see this. I imagined Tesla, a poster boy for American innovation, would do its best to stay away from shady labor practices. To their credit, they claim to know nothing about how their contractors employ people.
How is knowing nothing about how their contractors employ people to Tesla's credit? I'd be gratified to see Musk's attention to detail include focus on details like these.
>To their credit, they claim to know nothing about how their contractors employ people.
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
pingec|9 years ago
I wonder why anyone would repeatedly fly to the US to work for that money. He was maybe getting or was promised something more.
Also funny how they call us an "impoverished country". In my eyes an average Joe has much better quality of life in Slovenia than in the US :). I would say the problems start if you want to me more than the average Joe.
azernik|9 years ago
mastazi|9 years ago
bardworx|9 years ago
Creating labels and positioning the individual who was hurt as a victim, coming from an "impoverished country" is more attractive then reporting a different ("positive") point of view.
In defense of their reporting, however, they're measuring minimum wage of Slovenia vs minimum wage in USA, which is less, with no context (that you supplied)
laluser|9 years ago
Bahamut|9 years ago
slicktux|9 years ago
ams6110|9 years ago
patrickg_zill|9 years ago
There is no "magic pixie dust" that Eisenmann had, that they used to sprinkle over their materials that would make installation of the mechanical systems any less labor-intensive than their competitors.
Either Tesla knew (but chose wilful blindness) or Tesla is incompetent. Which is it?
forgetsusername|9 years ago
Why not? Otherwise, follow the logic: sub-contractor after sub-contractor until you reach the bottom and you've got some fly-by-night operation that you can't hold accountable.
Everyone involved shares the blame, including Tesla
moonfern|9 years ago
Start rant
I' m wondering if Tesla's case will grab headlines in the European "left"press. If so that indicates that populism uses facts to give you the sentiment that you're a victim of capitalism instead of realising the complexity of postmodern times End rant
hkmurakami|9 years ago
azernik|9 years ago
unknown|9 years ago
[deleted]
andmarios|9 years ago
As for the solution, place huge fines for all companies involved. That would give motive to Tesla to both inspect their construction and include protection clauses in their contracts.
dominotw|9 years ago
Review and proper enforcement of 'prevailing wage' requirements.
People in this article were not using H1B though.
>Tesla proudly employs nearly 6,000 American workers from the Bay Area
And for everything else we use subcontractors. Fucking disgusting.
swimfar|9 years ago
Just a little background, first. The car manufacturers often times aren't the ones designing the machines that build their cars. They come up with general plans for the layout and process and then they hire various engineering companies who specialize in that particular manufacturing process. Obviously they work closely with those companies to ensure that the designs meet their requirements.
Those engineering firms will then design, build, and install the equipment. Some of that work is done by sub-contractors. If the engineering company is based outside of the US (in this case, German-based Eisenmann), they are likely to have local workers (nationally or continentally speaking) that they are used to hiring for their projects (because they're familiar with their work, already have contracts set up, have the language issues more or less worked out, etc.). When they get contracts for the US, they are going to want to use the same group of people instead of the more complicated and risky option of trying to build a local team. This is especially true for physical labor (e.g. installation, setup) because you need those people onsite.
So, often times when there's a big automotive construction project you have lots of foreigners happening to show up to the area with tourist visas. The engineering firm provides housing and vehicles so they don't have to worry about that. And they pay them in the country they're based out of.
The manufacturer probably knows it's going on, but they don't ask questions. And I don't think it should necessarily be their responsibility. Sure, if they were held liable they would pay more attention. But you could say the same thing about the contractor as well. From the article, "The company overseeing Tesla’s expansion project — Eisenmann, a German-based manufacturer of industrial systems — also denied in court that it had legal responsibility for Lesnik." Unless someone (anyone in the chain, really) is fined or punished, no one is going bother worrying about it.
djrogers|9 years ago
No, this is a complete failure of the government in upholding it's responsibility 'thing'.
This is entirely a result of greedy politicians taking corporate money to write laws enabling this, encouraging government agencies to look the other way, and they need to be held responsible.
wrong_variable|9 years ago
Why did jobs move overseas ? If I am a business owner it makes absolutely no sense for me to pay 10x wages just for the privilege of hiring american workers. And if Laws do not change to take into account this differential more and more businesses will leave america.
sbov|9 years ago
There's all sorts of things that make absolutely no sense for business owners to do, so we have labor laws because business owners can't be trusted to not fuck everything up for society.
andmarios|9 years ago
billyjeans|9 years ago
bardworx|9 years ago
In addition, the pressure from other countries that are able to produce products at a lower cost because of different labor laws/market, it becomes impossible to "do the right thing".
lovich|9 years ago
dang|9 years ago
chmaynard|9 years ago
rdl|9 years ago
Sure wouldn't be where I'd choose to put a factory otherwise. From what I've read the low-VOC paint requirements in California lead to the Tesla Model S having inferior paint to Ford/etc (but still better than Nissan Leaf); one minor issue but probably representative.
adt2bt|9 years ago
pjmorris|9 years ago
venomsnake|9 years ago
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here! [a croupier hands Renault a pile of money] Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
ams6110|9 years ago
dilliwal|9 years ago