I'm all for electric vehicles, but there are a few things that have bothered me about its mass adoption.
Right now, electrics comprise a tiny part of the automobile market share. Yet Tesla is already running into supply issues, particularly with lithium as there are only 3 companies in the world that do industrial-scale lithium mining, that too in a handful of mines around the world.
Secondly, I suppose we're currently in the honeymoon period for electrics. But what will happen 5-8 years down the line, when all the early mainstream adopters of electrics will have to replace their batteries? Is it feasible to recycle all those batteries?
An EV essentially is a car with a very expensive fuel tank (the battery), made out of specific materials and properties. While it is efficient in energy use and can make use of fungible electricity, lithium is rare, limited to specific areas of concentration, and can (as any material) only be partially recycled.
There's lithium elsewhere on Earth, or more precisely, in seawater, but processing seawater for minerals (uranium is another which might be extracted) is expensive in the sense of requiring a lot of energy (arguably the ultimate definition of cost is energy requirements).
At US rates of auto ownership scaled to the world and future populations, known lithium reserves would quickly be exhausted -- a few decades, if that. With recycling, yes, some of that would be re-used, but even at 90% material recoverability (and references I have suggest 30% is far more common), you'll lose ~50% of your original material in 7 generations. (The formula: remaining material = (portion recoverable)^generations. So: 0.47 ~= 0.9^7.)
Other options include other forms of energy storage (including possibly synfuels), other battery components, or we all just start walking a lot more.
But what will happen 5-8 years down the line, when all the early mainstream adopters of electrics will have to replace their batteries? Is it feasible to recycle all those batteries?
Furthermore, lots of research is going into electric battery recycling. I've worked on EV-battery-related grant applications that also demonstrate promise. I can't say more about them, but I'm optimistic.
At the moment, lithium commodity prices remain oddly low if most people expect reserves to run out (if you (in the plural you sense) expect reserves to run out, there's a fortune to be made!). See also http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Is-There-Enough-....
> Right now, electrics comprise a tiny part of the automobile market share. Yet Tesla is already running into supply issues, particularly with lithium as there are only 3 companies in the world that do industrial-scale lithium mining, that too in a handful of mines around the world.
Why would any consumer have to care at all about this? If it really becomes a problem the price of EVs will go up and then people won't buy them. You're letting details you needn't worry about influence your possible purchase now? That makes no sense. Do you worry about how Ford is going to source their parts when they run into supply chain issues (which they do)? Do you worry about any other company's supply chain issues? You are repeating anti-EV FUD.
> I suppose we're currently in the honeymoon period for electrics. But what will happen 5-8 years down the line, when all the early mainstream adopters of electrics will have to replace their batteries? Is it feasible to recycle all those batteries?
A) All manufacturers have buyback/replacement programs in place that they have to uphold with the customer. Again, you needn't worry about the details as a consumer beyond that.
B) If you really insist on worrying about the details, look at some actual historic data instead of FUD; the price of EV batteries has been dropping dramatically over the last 10 years. All real signs (the fact that manufacturers keep opening new plants and increasing capacity, and that there is no real shortage of Lithium in the world despite the "3 companies" baloney) point to them continuing to drop.
The only REAL reason to consider not buying an EV right now is the dramatic pace at which they are improving. But to me that just points to leasing instead of buying one.
Supply issues are normal when demand rises suddenly. They aren't necessarily indicative of the long-term productive capacity of the Earth.
Websites go back and forth on this, but truly scientific analyses of "will we run out of X" are few and far between. But there's just no point in looking for a new quarry if the demand isn't there. You think it will be, but technology is capricious -- someone could invent a new gizmo that renders your investment worthless, so market forces generally don't support dragging a bunch of resources around until there's no other option.
There are ten pounds of lithium in a car battery. It's about as common as copper. That's hardly the end of the world.
> particularly with lithium as there are only 3 companies in the world that do industrial-scale lithium mining, that too in a handful of mines around the world.
It appears that there are more than 3 lithium mining companies[1]. Care to provide your source to prove otherwise?
Mineral extraction of non-renewable resources is a funny thing - when demand moves up, eventually supplies will drop, and prices rise. Then people either find a way to extract energy from a different mineral, or build better technology to remove it from rock, and prices go back down. The drop in oil and gas prices over the last few years being a perfect example of this, as it is due to new drilling techniques.
When the current lull in oil prices ends, electricity will take its place. And we will start the same cycle for batteries that we have lived through over the past 100 years with oil -- either technology will bring out more lithium, or research will move us to use a different fuel source.
The reality here in second-tier Chinese cities is that most people already get around, if not always then at least often, by electric vehicle.
They've either never had cars, have bought cars but have problems parking them or getting anywhere due to traffic (many cities were not designed for cars, and now have millions of them clogging every available space on and off the road network), or just jump on the back of black-market 'taxi' e-bikes to zip about. E-bikes already carry a large proportion of people in Chinese urban environments. There is no way that e-bikes, subways and buses combined are not the dominant people-movers in the country, today. While I did see some e-bikes in Japan, they were nowhere near as numerous. China is leading the way.
Typical Chinese e-bike cost new is USD$500 or less. Battery replacement (good for 1 year or so) is currently about USD$150 or less. They do get stolen a lot, unfortunately.
True statement. Having been visiting China annually for the past 10 years and seeing the transportation transition from mopeds to E-bikes first hand, I can attest to that. And the price has really been going down significantly because of the mass production and economy of scale (exports are a major contribution). Typically e-bikes with traditional car batteries are starting at around 2000 RMB. Some newer ones with Li-ion batteries are priced slightly higher.
However, e-bikes are seeing a decline and/or full ban in top-tier Chinese cities due to new traffic regulations and new road design. It is still the predominant transportation tool in 2nd-tier and small cities where public transportation is scarce and downtown areas are smaller.
Interesting article but the timelines seem way to conservative to me.
For example if batteries continue to improve over the next four years as they have over the past four years, according to the article then in 2020 the batteries will weight 1500 lbs, travel 1142 miles on a charge and cost about $10k. (Or a 500 mile battery for $5k) And the cost of electricity will be, at today's rates, $1 per "e-gallon"
Who wouldn't want that? Project this to 2040 and the numbers become just ridiculous but the article suggests just 35% market share by then. I don't think so. By 2025 the market will almost certainly be strongly in the favor of electrics.
There are inherent limits on battery energy density.[1] Lithium-ion is nearing the limits of that chemistry. Magnesium-ion could potentially have about 30% more energy density, but so far, nobody can get it to work. Lithium-sulfur may be the next big step. Those actually exist.[2] However, they present a major hazardous waste problem, much worse than lithium-ion batteries.[3] The ultimate limits on energy density are probably 2x or 3x above the best current products. Basic problem: higher energy density comes from elements that are highly reactive.
Cost can be brought down through manufacturing economies. We'll have to see if Tesla meets their price point with their Nevada factory.
There are two different studies, one which shows a 15% and one which shows a 21% learning rate (decreased price due to volume).
One thing that's worth noting is that lithium ion energy density (Wh/kg) has not increased appreciably in the past few years (~200 Wh/kg) - we're probably maxed out w/o switching chemistries. Oxis and Sony are targeting 500 Wh/kg Li-S batteries for 2019/2020, but I'll believe it when I see it - most of the Li-S research is super gee-whiz (lots of coated nanotubes, nanocomposites, etc) but that stuff never tends to make it outside of the labs, and if it does, will be quite expensive.
Fuel engine are improving too and oil price doesn't seem to want to go down any time soon. I'd say we have an interesting 10 years ahead. Electric is probably going to win, but time estimates are very hard to do. Don't forget that replacing a car fleet is expensive and takes years. A modern car can easily last 15-20 years, so even if we started replacing fuel with electric today (which we are not), replacing the whole car fleet would require 15-20 years. I don't see the 35% so far fetched in 2025...
What about making the battery packs "hot swappable". You pull into the station, the current pack is unloaded and a new one is loaded. I It can also have interesting effects on the battery upgrade you need to do every X amount of years. The packs could be owned by the gas station chain, so you can stop at any of their establishments and get a new one refiled.
These battery pack charging stations could then also be used as power offloading for local power generation.
One of the founders of HTC is doing this for mopeds. With a much smaller battery, you just pull it out and carry it with you to the swapping station. Seems quite interesting:
Shai Agassi tried that with Better Place. It raised about $850M and filed for bankruptcy after 6 years. Less than 1400 cars were using the 38 deployed swapping stations in Israel and Denmark.
There have been many demos of hot swappable battery packs.
However as long as every car maker has their own battery packs and swapping methods it means you'll need a half dozen different swapping stations at each location making the whole concept very financially inefficient.
Tesla designed that, built one, then dropped it last year as nobody was using it. It could be more useful in vehicles which don't charge as fast, perhaps?
I've been shopping for a used car in the Bay Area, and it looks like used electrics are even easier to buy (and harder to sell) than former rentals. That's not a good signal.
Incidentally, I bought a former rental and it's great! No problems at all.
People always say "But what if some idiot has thrashed it?" Well, probably some idiot did, but at least they only did it for a couple of days... much better than buying a car which was solely driven by some idiot.
Forget the batteries look at the cost of replacing aluminum quarter panel which is welded on. For the Model S it's supposedly $15,000+ just for the part then fixed at a Tesla approved bodyshop. That's nuts!
I like electric but I can't own a car that will cost so much to repair. A $15,000 bill not including labor on a $70,000 vehicle 20% of the total vehicle cost is not worth it.
You're talking about a $60k+ (realistically probably more like $80k) vehicle. Aluminum body panels for luxury cars in that class have long been similarly priced. If you bought an all aluminum Audi A8 in 1999 for a similar price, you'd be in a similar situation. If you balk at that kind of repair bill, you shouldn't be considering a car in that price range.
Your comparison of the used Ferrari hood is hardly applicable at all. First it's a used part, second it's a carbon fiber part, not aluminum.
Additionally, why would you expect to pay the price for the part yourself? That's what insurance is for. In reality, Tesla is doing you a favor by making their body panels so expensive because that means it's easier for your car to get declared a total write off in an accident and you can get a new car instead of a busted up repaired car that will never be the same (as anyone who's had a car repaired from a major accident can tell you.)
Lastly, I'd imagine the cost of Tesla body parts has a lot to do with the fact that they are in extremely high demand right now because there's still a waiting list. Any body panel Tesla sells you can't be used to build a car.
I'm not sure what this complaint has to do with electric cars in general -- sure, expensive cars are expensive.
Your Tesla number is definitely incorrect; I rear-ended someone in traffic and fixing the front-end was $10k of parts and $10k of labor. Not a surprising amount given what the car costs.
I suspect a Chevy Bolt will cost about the same to repair as other Chevy cars with a similar price.
The next big problem is the lack of a unified charging infrastructure. Yes, you can buy a trunk full of adapters.[1] Teslas use their own plug, for which there are a CHAdeMO adapter, a J1772 adapter, and adapters for standard 120VAC and 240VAC outlets. A full set of adapters is about $700. [2]
The Chevy Bolt uses Combo Cord, which supports J1772 and CCS.
Looking around Silicon Valley, almost all charging points have J1772. Some are free, some require payment, and some require membership in a charging plan. Higher power stations are mostly CHAdeMO.
There's a big retail markup on electricity. $0.59/KWh at some stations. And there are payment "plans", which look like cellular phone plans. Tesla's "Supercharger" is supposedly unlimited once you've paid your $2500, but apparently if you use ones near your residence, they send you nag messages saying it's really for travelers.
When the bosses wanted iPhones, the company got iPhones. When the bosses want to plug in their electric cars, the parking lots will get charging stations.
If Norway is any indication, it shouldn't be much of a problem. Once the EV market share hits a certain threshold, build-out of charging infrastructure explodes, as it becomes a good investment.
Grocery stores are starting to have deals with charging station companies, because it gives them a competetive advantage to have a charging station at their store.
Some government incentives can be great to give the infrastructure that initial boost (to help boost initial EV sales) but it seems the market can handle it after that.
Two car households look like a large enough market to get past the chicken and egg problem. The vast majority of daily driving is within the range of a base model Tesla.
This is going to sound flippant, but I mean it seriously: The advantage to fungible electricity seems to me that we've already solved the hard parts of charging infrastructure. We have electric grids that reach just about every building, and with modern lighting standards most parking lots and parking facilities too.
Certainly there are "last mile questions" like number of charging devices and type of charging plug(s) and adding plugs to circuits/stringing new circuits near building exteriors and in parking lots and figuring out who to charge for that, but none of them have particularly "hard" problems left to solve at this point.
obviously Tesla is the front runner for spearheading the insudtry by virtually every metric & subsector (except maybe price). Look, I love Tesla and have been bullish on the company for a pretty long time, so I am biased, but why can't other car companies have quality cars and aesthetics.
* Fisker Karma: The car looked super sleek, was super sexy and from an engineering standpoint it was a heap of shit.
* Chevy Volt: Was an ICE car that had the worst of both worlds. Not particularly attractive.
* Rimac Concept One: Ok this car was fucking brilliant but it was like $1M USD.
* Prius: Pretty decent as far as hybrids go. Aesthetics are lacking what many might consider: the ability to not look like a cross between a golf cart and a mobility scooter.
* Chevey Bolt: Seems to have pretty amazing specs. Aesthetics are sub-par for sure.
Yes, Tesla's thing was making a compelling electric car, however other manufacturers seem to be doing alright in actually making the car. They just need to bend the metal in a way that doesn't look fucking horrible and Tesla will have a bit harder of a time of it.
Edit:
Here is a quick album I made. Nearly every car looks the same:
Here[t] you can see Tesla's offerings. The roadster is omitted. However, of the 4 cars, they made: roadster and the
models s,3,x,y* you would be hard pressed to confuse them for any of the cars in the above album. However, those in that album are very close to one another aesthetically.
I recall reading an article (can't find it at the moment) that suggested that the ugliness of hybrid/electric vehicles was, in general, a deliberate move; that people buying an EV didn't actually want an EV (even if they thought they did); they wanted their neighbors to think they wanted an EV, and designing EVs in a distinctive style allowed that market to be tapped much more effectively than if EVs had followed the design patterns of IC vehicles.
> There is no Moore’s law for battery storage—the power of batteries doesn’t magically double every two years.
> Put another away, the battery pack in the 2017 Volt will cost less than 10 percent more than the one in the 2012 Volt. But it will be more than four times more powerful.
Intel wishes its chips still quadrupled in performance every 5 years.
> We’re moving toward a world where more and more cars will either run primarily on gasoline but with an assist from powerful batteries or primarily on powerful batteries but with an assist from gasoline.
He's saying that in article talking about how cheap batteries have become and how in a few years they'll be $100/KWh? Within 10 years all EVs will have 100-150 KWh batteries. That's 400-600 mile ranges.
The only place where you'll see "hybrids" is some niches where batteries alone couldn't possibly make sense, but I have a hard time coming up with ideas for vehicles where batteries alone wouldn't be enough in 15 years and they're smaller than say a train or an airplane. Even buses should do just fine with a 200KWh battery for a 16-18h work-day.
> Earlier this week, Bloomberg New Energy Finance released a report arguing that by 2040, 35 percent of annual vehicles sales will be electric.
It will be at least twice as much by 2030. By 2025 few will want a car that isn't an EV, and the car makers will have no choice but to start competing in EVs as their primary cars.
[+] [-] pcr0|10 years ago|reply
Right now, electrics comprise a tiny part of the automobile market share. Yet Tesla is already running into supply issues, particularly with lithium as there are only 3 companies in the world that do industrial-scale lithium mining, that too in a handful of mines around the world.
Secondly, I suppose we're currently in the honeymoon period for electrics. But what will happen 5-8 years down the line, when all the early mainstream adopters of electrics will have to replace their batteries? Is it feasible to recycle all those batteries?
[+] [-] dredmorbius|10 years ago|reply
An EV essentially is a car with a very expensive fuel tank (the battery), made out of specific materials and properties. While it is efficient in energy use and can make use of fungible electricity, lithium is rare, limited to specific areas of concentration, and can (as any material) only be partially recycled.
There's lithium elsewhere on Earth, or more precisely, in seawater, but processing seawater for minerals (uranium is another which might be extracted) is expensive in the sense of requiring a lot of energy (arguably the ultimate definition of cost is energy requirements).
At US rates of auto ownership scaled to the world and future populations, known lithium reserves would quickly be exhausted -- a few decades, if that. With recycling, yes, some of that would be re-used, but even at 90% material recoverability (and references I have suggest 30% is far more common), you'll lose ~50% of your original material in 7 generations. (The formula: remaining material = (portion recoverable)^generations. So: 0.47 ~= 0.9^7.)
Other options include other forms of energy storage (including possibly synfuels), other battery components, or we all just start walking a lot more.
[+] [-] jseliger|10 years ago|reply
I quoted this below, but yes: http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/05/09/3775606/used-sec....
Furthermore, lots of research is going into electric battery recycling. I've worked on EV-battery-related grant applications that also demonstrate promise. I can't say more about them, but I'm optimistic.
At the moment, lithium commodity prices remain oddly low if most people expect reserves to run out (if you (in the plural you sense) expect reserves to run out, there's a fortune to be made!). See also http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Is-There-Enough-....
[+] [-] ebbv|10 years ago|reply
Why would any consumer have to care at all about this? If it really becomes a problem the price of EVs will go up and then people won't buy them. You're letting details you needn't worry about influence your possible purchase now? That makes no sense. Do you worry about how Ford is going to source their parts when they run into supply chain issues (which they do)? Do you worry about any other company's supply chain issues? You are repeating anti-EV FUD.
> I suppose we're currently in the honeymoon period for electrics. But what will happen 5-8 years down the line, when all the early mainstream adopters of electrics will have to replace their batteries? Is it feasible to recycle all those batteries?
A) All manufacturers have buyback/replacement programs in place that they have to uphold with the customer. Again, you needn't worry about the details as a consumer beyond that.
B) If you really insist on worrying about the details, look at some actual historic data instead of FUD; the price of EV batteries has been dropping dramatically over the last 10 years. All real signs (the fact that manufacturers keep opening new plants and increasing capacity, and that there is no real shortage of Lithium in the world despite the "3 companies" baloney) point to them continuing to drop.
The only REAL reason to consider not buying an EV right now is the dramatic pace at which they are improving. But to me that just points to leasing instead of buying one.
[+] [-] scythe|10 years ago|reply
Websites go back and forth on this, but truly scientific analyses of "will we run out of X" are few and far between. But there's just no point in looking for a new quarry if the demand isn't there. You think it will be, but technology is capricious -- someone could invent a new gizmo that renders your investment worthless, so market forces generally don't support dragging a bunch of resources around until there's no other option.
There are ten pounds of lithium in a car battery. It's about as common as copper. That's hardly the end of the world.
http://gas2.org/2008/10/13/lithium-counterpoint-no-shortage-...
[+] [-] victorlew|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] devy|10 years ago|reply
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_as_an_investment
[+] [-] codingdave|10 years ago|reply
When the current lull in oil prices ends, electricity will take its place. And we will start the same cycle for batteries that we have lived through over the past 100 years with oil -- either technology will bring out more lithium, or research will move us to use a different fuel source.
[+] [-] dragontamer|10 years ago|reply
Why recycle when you can give them a second life?
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/538541/nissan-gm-give-ev-...
No recycling involved. Just use the batteries as they are as cheap power storage.
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] agumonkey|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] microcolonel|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] contingencies|10 years ago|reply
They've either never had cars, have bought cars but have problems parking them or getting anywhere due to traffic (many cities were not designed for cars, and now have millions of them clogging every available space on and off the road network), or just jump on the back of black-market 'taxi' e-bikes to zip about. E-bikes already carry a large proportion of people in Chinese urban environments. There is no way that e-bikes, subways and buses combined are not the dominant people-movers in the country, today. While I did see some e-bikes in Japan, they were nowhere near as numerous. China is leading the way.
Typical Chinese e-bike cost new is USD$500 or less. Battery replacement (good for 1 year or so) is currently about USD$150 or less. They do get stolen a lot, unfortunately.
[+] [-] devy|10 years ago|reply
However, e-bikes are seeing a decline and/or full ban in top-tier Chinese cities due to new traffic regulations and new road design. It is still the predominant transportation tool in 2nd-tier and small cities where public transportation is scarce and downtown areas are smaller.
[+] [-] jeromeflipo|10 years ago|reply
It was quite an shock for me to go back to Paris and realize how much my neighborhood is polluted by toxic fumes and deafening engine back-fire.
[+] [-] sunstone|10 years ago|reply
For example if batteries continue to improve over the next four years as they have over the past four years, according to the article then in 2020 the batteries will weight 1500 lbs, travel 1142 miles on a charge and cost about $10k. (Or a 500 mile battery for $5k) And the cost of electricity will be, at today's rates, $1 per "e-gallon"
Who wouldn't want that? Project this to 2040 and the numbers become just ridiculous but the article suggests just 35% market share by then. I don't think so. By 2025 the market will almost certainly be strongly in the favor of electrics.
[+] [-] Animats|10 years ago|reply
Cost can be brought down through manufacturing economies. We'll have to see if Tesla meets their price point with their Nevada factory.
[1] http://www.tedsanders.com/graphs/batteries-over-time [2] http://www.sionpower.com/ [3] https://yosemite.epa.gov/OSW/rcra.nsf/Documents/CC7D81DF3070...
[+] [-] lhl|10 years ago|reply
There are two different studies, one which shows a 15% and one which shows a 21% learning rate (decreased price due to volume).
One thing that's worth noting is that lithium ion energy density (Wh/kg) has not increased appreciably in the past few years (~200 Wh/kg) - we're probably maxed out w/o switching chemistries. Oxis and Sony are targeting 500 Wh/kg Li-S batteries for 2019/2020, but I'll believe it when I see it - most of the Li-S research is super gee-whiz (lots of coated nanotubes, nanocomposites, etc) but that stuff never tends to make it outside of the labs, and if it does, will be quite expensive.
[+] [-] amelius|10 years ago|reply
If CPUs had improved similarly, we would now have machines running at 100GHz. Just saying that extrapolating technology is a tricky business.
[+] [-] kfk|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] calgoo|10 years ago|reply
These battery pack charging stations could then also be used as power offloading for local power generation.
[+] [-] ZeroGravitas|10 years ago|reply
https://www.wired.com/2016/01/electric-scooter-maker-gogoro-...
[+] [-] andruby|10 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place
[+] [-] dagw|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ZeKK14|10 years ago|reply
It didn't work.
[+] [-] vertex-four|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] KKKKkkkk1|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Coincoin|10 years ago|reply
It reminds me my first digital camera, 2000$ and 3 years later you could get better for 500$.
[+] [-] hugh4|10 years ago|reply
People always say "But what if some idiot has thrashed it?" Well, probably some idiot did, but at least they only did it for a couple of days... much better than buying a car which was solely driven by some idiot.
[+] [-] ktRolster|10 years ago|reply
But the price is dropping, and eventually will be affordable.
[+] [-] dghughes|10 years ago|reply
I did the math and for comparison on a $3 million Enzo Ferrari a hood (couldn't find a quarter panel) unpainted and used is about $10,000. http://www.ferrparts.com/en/usd/diagrams/front-hood-and-open...
I like electric but I can't own a car that will cost so much to repair. A $15,000 bill not including labor on a $70,000 vehicle 20% of the total vehicle cost is not worth it.
[+] [-] ebbv|10 years ago|reply
Your comparison of the used Ferrari hood is hardly applicable at all. First it's a used part, second it's a carbon fiber part, not aluminum.
Additionally, why would you expect to pay the price for the part yourself? That's what insurance is for. In reality, Tesla is doing you a favor by making their body panels so expensive because that means it's easier for your car to get declared a total write off in an accident and you can get a new car instead of a busted up repaired car that will never be the same (as anyone who's had a car repaired from a major accident can tell you.)
Lastly, I'd imagine the cost of Tesla body parts has a lot to do with the fact that they are in extremely high demand right now because there's still a waiting list. Any body panel Tesla sells you can't be used to build a car.
[+] [-] greglindahl|10 years ago|reply
Your Tesla number is definitely incorrect; I rear-ended someone in traffic and fixing the front-end was $10k of parts and $10k of labor. Not a surprising amount given what the car costs.
I suspect a Chevy Bolt will cost about the same to repair as other Chevy cars with a similar price.
[+] [-] qaq|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] omellet|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Animats|10 years ago|reply
The Chevy Bolt uses Combo Cord, which supports J1772 and CCS.
Looking around Silicon Valley, almost all charging points have J1772. Some are free, some require payment, and some require membership in a charging plan. Higher power stations are mostly CHAdeMO.
There's a big retail markup on electricity. $0.59/KWh at some stations. And there are payment "plans", which look like cellular phone plans. Tesla's "Supercharger" is supposedly unlimited once you've paid your $2500, but apparently if you use ones near your residence, they send you nag messages saying it's really for travelers.
[1] https://www.evseadapters.com/ [2] http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-ada...
[+] [-] bluthru|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] audunw|10 years ago|reply
Grocery stores are starting to have deals with charging station companies, because it gives them a competetive advantage to have a charging station at their store.
Some government incentives can be great to give the infrastructure that initial boost (to help boost initial EV sales) but it seems the market can handle it after that.
[+] [-] cheriot|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WorldMaker|10 years ago|reply
Certainly there are "last mile questions" like number of charging devices and type of charging plug(s) and adding plugs to circuits/stringing new circuits near building exteriors and in parking lots and figuring out who to charge for that, but none of them have particularly "hard" problems left to solve at this point.
[+] [-] intrasight|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vonklaus|10 years ago|reply
* Fisker Karma: The car looked super sleek, was super sexy and from an engineering standpoint it was a heap of shit.
* Chevy Volt: Was an ICE car that had the worst of both worlds. Not particularly attractive.
* Rimac Concept One: Ok this car was fucking brilliant but it was like $1M USD.
* Prius: Pretty decent as far as hybrids go. Aesthetics are lacking what many might consider: the ability to not look like a cross between a golf cart and a mobility scooter.
* Chevey Bolt: Seems to have pretty amazing specs. Aesthetics are sub-par for sure.
Yes, Tesla's thing was making a compelling electric car, however other manufacturers seem to be doing alright in actually making the car. They just need to bend the metal in a way that doesn't look fucking horrible and Tesla will have a bit harder of a time of it.
Edit:
Here is a quick album I made. Nearly every car looks the same:
http://imgur.com/a/HEsyf
edit 2:
Here[t] you can see Tesla's offerings. The roadster is omitted. However, of the 4 cars, they made: roadster and the models s,3,x,y* you would be hard pressed to confuse them for any of the cars in the above album. However, those in that album are very close to one another aesthetically.
[t]http://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2016/05/2017-Tesla-...
* they haven't made y yet....
[+] [-] haikuginger|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jejones3141|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] megablast|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Spooky23|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mtgx|10 years ago|reply
> Put another away, the battery pack in the 2017 Volt will cost less than 10 percent more than the one in the 2012 Volt. But it will be more than four times more powerful.
Intel wishes its chips still quadrupled in performance every 5 years.
> We’re moving toward a world where more and more cars will either run primarily on gasoline but with an assist from powerful batteries or primarily on powerful batteries but with an assist from gasoline.
He's saying that in article talking about how cheap batteries have become and how in a few years they'll be $100/KWh? Within 10 years all EVs will have 100-150 KWh batteries. That's 400-600 mile ranges.
The only place where you'll see "hybrids" is some niches where batteries alone couldn't possibly make sense, but I have a hard time coming up with ideas for vehicles where batteries alone wouldn't be enough in 15 years and they're smaller than say a train or an airplane. Even buses should do just fine with a 200KWh battery for a 16-18h work-day.
> Earlier this week, Bloomberg New Energy Finance released a report arguing that by 2040, 35 percent of annual vehicles sales will be electric.
It will be at least twice as much by 2030. By 2025 few will want a car that isn't an EV, and the car makers will have no choice but to start competing in EVs as their primary cars.
[+] [-] Freestyler_3|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kalleboo|10 years ago|reply
It's also more than twice as heavy