I'm a big fan of Fog Creek (having worked there for 7 years). But I'm a little stumped on who this is for.
Without any persistence (Mongo, SQL, Redis, something) this is nothing more than a toy. Right now, the forums suggest setting one up via some PAAS, which obviates the whole "it's only one step" thing. Presumably persistence is on its way, as this is just a beta.
Persistence aside, it's still lightweight for an experienced developer. All of the things listed in Joel's "look what you don't have to do list" exist because they are good practice. In fact, 16 years ago Joel wrote about the 12 things that you need to make good software[0], which, coincidentally, includes almost everything on that convenience list.
On the other hand, if you're just learning to code, not having to provision a server or deal with Git isn't really fixing the hard part. Heroku and GitHub are making that easier and easier. HyperDev drops you right into an active NodeJS project without explaining what package.json is, where you define your views, or even what views are.
This leaves it serving a very narrow demographic, which is often the problem with these sorts of tools. Hopefully Fog Creek will be able to make it more broadly appealing before the shine wears off.
I think you’re underestimating the addressable market. StackOverflow has 45M unique users [1], and yet Evans Data [2] and others put the number of developers at around 20M. So there are tens of millions of people looking for help with programming issues who aren’t professionals. I think a lot of them, and professional developers with side-projects and quick scripts to write, will find utility here. The typical Git workflow best-practice is something of a one-size-fits-all at the moment, and we think it’s not a great fit in some circumstances. So this is just another option.
On persistence - each HyperDev project gets a DynamoDB. It’s definitely trickier to use than we’d like, so we’ll be getting to that, but for now here’s an example project you can remix that uses it - https://hyperdev.com/#!/project/typhoon-pine. Or there are other options like one that uses a free mlab MongoDB - https://hyperdev.com/#!/project/navy-flower that’s pretty easy to get going with.
Cool tech, fun toy! I hope it is successful. I think Joel should focus on it's toy-like nature, and potential as a learning tool, rather than trying to build this into a production grade tool.
I spent years building tools for this market between professional devs and non-developers. (Backlift.com and then Brace.io) It's really tough. Most people learning to code are trying to gain transferrable skills that can help them land a job. For them, learning git is a fruitful tangent along the path to shipping. Those that aren't interested in building those transferrable skills probably don't self-identify as developers. Making developer tools for non-developers is tough.
> Cool tech, fun toy! I hope it is successful. I think Joel should focus on it's toy-like nature, and potential as a learning tool, rather than trying to build this into a production grade tool.
Agreed, and I think the latter part of the post (the "FAQ") indicates that Joel doesn't see this as a deployment strategy for professional developers...
"Listen, this is not the future of all software development. Professional software development teams will continue to use professional, robust tools like Git and that’s great. But it’s surprising how just having continuous merging and reliable Undo solves the “version control” problem for all kinds of simple coding problems. And it really does create an insanely addictive form of collaboration that supercharges your team productivity."
Basically it's a platform that makes a major trade-off: practically zero accountability in exchange for maximum usability. To us professionals, this doesn't seem like a worthwhile choice. However, to those non-programmers or budding programmers which I believe this product is geared towards, it's a step in the right direction. This feels like it wants to be the "Google Docs" of programming.
I'm excited to see this in fruition. I don't know how much of a concern this is but https://hyperdev.com/about/ loads an attachment (mime/octet-stream). I've never seen this behavior before so I didn't download it. Win 10, FF 46.0.1
You sent everyone an email[1] to participate in the discussion, and after this an over-capacity message[2] is a bit disappointing because it seems like you did expect the attention this time. On the other hand, I know that things can go wrong and I wish you a quick recovery and all the success.
Pretty cool, the idea looks similar to `now` by Zeit[1]
Platform as a service has gone from click to get a server that needs configuring (AWS), to get a server already configured (Heroku), and now to write code and get URL without even needing to think about servers
HyperDev is a little different - it has the editor and isn't, or at least won't be, Node.js specific - there will be support for several programming languages.
Yeah the timing is interesting. Given the close release dates, I don't think there'd have been time for one to inspire the other, yet now we have both. Are there any other services like this? Maybe it's a new trend.
1) host this myself. Something like apt-get install hyperdev.
2) have an integrated SQL database in the runtime. Concept of migrations should be known by the runtime.
3) have a one click deploy option that synced everything to a remote runtime, be it on my own servers or hosted by a 3rd party. Syncing to a runtime with older schema should automatically run migrations.
2) You can use your favorite Node SQL package for that. Yeah, the DB has to be hosted somewhere else, but that's getting pretty easy if you're using PAAS services.
something that might be interesting is a hosting this (https://github.com/gabrielcsapo/node-notebook). It does not have sql database support, but can use all of node's capabilities. Another plus is you can self host it
I like the theme—I'm guessing it's supposed to be reminiscent of early Mac OS and HyperCard? That seems to fit HyperDev's goal of getting up and running quickly so you can enjoy building something.
I see the big potential in having an always-on development environment in the cloud. It would enable better collaboration. It also enables features not possible with in the old way, like easier deployment, ready-made persistence, moving back in time, … .
But for me the problem with them is that the text editor is not Emacs. I guess a lot of developers who are somewhat experienced have similar attachment to their editors and scripts. And it’s not just an emotional one: it directly affects productivity.
Not trying to be negative here, but this is really an issue.
I feel as a developer I have a personal debt to Joel. So first I wish him and FC best of luck with any endeavor.
It's unclear to me which crowd this tool is useful for. I'm usually using cloud9 for the "deploy a toy now" use case.
Between wix, Heroku, google apps, c9.io, github pages, jsfiddle, ngrok... which unoccupied niche is left for HyperDev?
I really like the concept of this. Especially with node/react I found learning webpack and setting everything up takes FOREVER.
Unfortunately, platforms like these always seem ridiculously overpriced when compared to a bare metal dedicated server. I'd be curious to see how it is priced.
> I found learning webpack and setting everything up takes FOREVER.
That's because you are learning webpack and setting everything up. It's akin to setting out to learn java by learning maven first and downloading all your dependencies through that and then learning how to bundle your code into a war for deployment on a J2EE server. Of course that's going to take more time than just copying some jars in your classpath and getting to work and learning the language.
If you want to learn React, copy the latest CDN, use the in-browser transpiler, and start learning react. Add the goodies on later.
It's a little opinionated but aligns well with the decisions I independently made after spending way too much time learning "build tool bullshit". That said, it's a little rough around the edges and development is not very active.
Cool idea, but it feels a little like using FTP to develop in a live environment. The pitch seems to be saying SCM and deployment tools are bad things, but they're valuable and useful tools.
Joel made very clear he is not saying anything of the sort. He is saying they are very useful tools for professional development, but sometimes you just want to type some code and see what it does.
Nobody mentioned AppJet yet? AppJet was exactly the same product, 10 years ago! It was awesome and I hope this product sticks around longer than AppJet did (pivoted into EtherPad and then acquihired by Google).
I haven't had a chance to test HyperDev extensively cause it's a bit early and unstable, but c9 is like a full-fledged traditional IDE supporting anything you might program while a full Ubuntu virtual machine can install anything your project needs. C9 is open source and can be deployed on your own hardware.
HyperDev is specifically for web stuff and really slickly optimized around that handling deployment and everything.
It is similar in that both allow you to create applications using web based editors but HyperDev focuses much more on simplicity. We start with the idea that everyone will experience their development environment from a web based interface in the future and try to design one as simple and powerful as possible.
I'm not an expert c9 user, but from my experience with it it is much more about recreating existing development environments on the web.
With HyperDev you don't need to pick a server OS or configure your environment to match your local, it is already set up and deployed. You just need to write the code.
I am getting a 502 message on your about page (hyperdev)...really frustrating that I get the over capacity message two weeks after signing up for the private beta, I would have thought this would have been resolved by now especially with this new press.
[+] [-] tghw|9 years ago|reply
Without any persistence (Mongo, SQL, Redis, something) this is nothing more than a toy. Right now, the forums suggest setting one up via some PAAS, which obviates the whole "it's only one step" thing. Presumably persistence is on its way, as this is just a beta.
Persistence aside, it's still lightweight for an experienced developer. All of the things listed in Joel's "look what you don't have to do list" exist because they are good practice. In fact, 16 years ago Joel wrote about the 12 things that you need to make good software[0], which, coincidentally, includes almost everything on that convenience list.
On the other hand, if you're just learning to code, not having to provision a server or deal with Git isn't really fixing the hard part. Heroku and GitHub are making that easier and easier. HyperDev drops you right into an active NodeJS project without explaining what package.json is, where you define your views, or even what views are.
This leaves it serving a very narrow demographic, which is often the problem with these sorts of tools. Hopefully Fog Creek will be able to make it more broadly appealing before the shine wears off.
[0] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html
[+] [-] GarethX|9 years ago|reply
On persistence - each HyperDev project gets a DynamoDB. It’s definitely trickier to use than we’d like, so we’ll be getting to that, but for now here’s an example project you can remix that uses it - https://hyperdev.com/#!/project/typhoon-pine. Or there are other options like one that uses a free mlab MongoDB - https://hyperdev.com/#!/project/navy-flower that’s pretty easy to get going with.
But I think you should just try building something with it - here’s a good excuse: https://hyperdev.com/blog/developer-contest-get-back-nature/. From what I remember from Aavardk’d [3] you’re a keen photographer so it should be your thing!
1 - https://www.quantcast.com/stackoverflow.com 2 - http://www.computerworld.com/article/2483690/it-careers/indi... 3 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NRL7YsXjSg
[+] [-] colevscode|9 years ago|reply
I spent years building tools for this market between professional devs and non-developers. (Backlift.com and then Brace.io) It's really tough. Most people learning to code are trying to gain transferrable skills that can help them land a job. For them, learning git is a fruitful tangent along the path to shipping. Those that aren't interested in building those transferrable skills probably don't self-identify as developers. Making developer tools for non-developers is tough.
[+] [-] tomphoolery|9 years ago|reply
Agreed, and I think the latter part of the post (the "FAQ") indicates that Joel doesn't see this as a deployment strategy for professional developers...
"Listen, this is not the future of all software development. Professional software development teams will continue to use professional, robust tools like Git and that’s great. But it’s surprising how just having continuous merging and reliable Undo solves the “version control” problem for all kinds of simple coding problems. And it really does create an insanely addictive form of collaboration that supercharges your team productivity."
Basically it's a platform that makes a major trade-off: practically zero accountability in exchange for maximum usability. To us professionals, this doesn't seem like a worthwhile choice. However, to those non-programmers or budding programmers which I believe this product is geared towards, it's a step in the right direction. This feels like it wants to be the "Google Docs" of programming.
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Yahivin|9 years ago|reply
Thanks for your patience!
- A frantic HyperDev developer
[+] [-] kfrz|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jtblin|9 years ago|reply
> {"status":"Error","statusCode":503,"statusDetail":"Waiting To Serve for cosmic-panther: No service found running on port"}
Nice sense of humour at least ;)
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] benologist|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] egeozcan|9 years ago|reply
[1]: http://i.imgur.com/ZazMSgt.png
[2]: http://i.imgur.com/NXyTHBB.png
edit: BTW I reloaded the page and the error disappeared but now the whole thing is unresponsive.
[+] [-] marcuskaz|9 years ago|reply
Platform as a service has gone from click to get a server that needs configuring (AWS), to get a server already configured (Heroku), and now to write code and get URL without even needing to think about servers
[1]: https://zeit.co/
[+] [-] GarethX|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hackaflocka|9 years ago|reply
Also, would Hyperdev be capable of PHP, MySQL?
[+] [-] jkarneges|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] atrudeau|9 years ago|reply
1) host this myself. Something like apt-get install hyperdev.
2) have an integrated SQL database in the runtime. Concept of migrations should be known by the runtime.
3) have a one click deploy option that synced everything to a remote runtime, be it on my own servers or hosted by a 3rd party. Syncing to a runtime with older schema should automatically run migrations.
[+] [-] tghw|9 years ago|reply
2) You can use your favorite Node SQL package for that. Yeah, the DB has to be hosted somewhere else, but that's getting pretty easy if you're using PAAS services.
3) Yeah, that'd be nice.
[+] [-] gabrielcsapo|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alecdbrooks|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gregshap|9 years ago|reply
Wish the site wasn't down, but I like this as a way to handle the blow up during launch.
[+] [-] tedmiston|9 years ago|reply
The email notification during overload is a very thoughtful feature. Awesome UX enhancement especially for a dev service.
[+] [-] mostafah|9 years ago|reply
But for me the problem with them is that the text editor is not Emacs. I guess a lot of developers who are somewhat experienced have similar attachment to their editors and scripts. And it’s not just an emotional one: it directly affects productivity.
Not trying to be negative here, but this is really an issue.
[+] [-] konnichimade|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] syastrov|9 years ago|reply
Nope, you'll just get an SQL syntax error.
[+] [-] avip|9 years ago|reply
It's unclear to me which crowd this tool is useful for. I'm usually using cloud9 for the "deploy a toy now" use case. Between wix, Heroku, google apps, c9.io, github pages, jsfiddle, ngrok... which unoccupied niche is left for HyperDev?
[+] [-] collyw|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bcheung|9 years ago|reply
Unfortunately, platforms like these always seem ridiculously overpriced when compared to a bare metal dedicated server. I'd be curious to see how it is priced.
[+] [-] treehau5|9 years ago|reply
That's because you are learning webpack and setting everything up. It's akin to setting out to learn java by learning maven first and downloading all your dependencies through that and then learning how to bundle your code into a war for deployment on a J2EE server. Of course that's going to take more time than just copying some jars in your classpath and getting to work and learning the language.
If you want to learn React, copy the latest CDN, use the in-browser transpiler, and start learning react. Add the goodies on later.
[+] [-] Cthulhu_|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tlrobinson|9 years ago|reply
It's a little opinionated but aligns well with the decisions I independently made after spending way too much time learning "build tool bullshit". That said, it's a little rough around the edges and development is not very active.
[+] [-] beefsack|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jimbokun|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rajington|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _Marak_|9 years ago|reply
Got a message saying Hyperdev has hit capacity and to try again later.
:-\
[+] [-] nuggien|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] modeless|9 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppJet
[+] [-] ianand|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NKCSS|9 years ago|reply
http://i.imgur.com/icNiRy1.png
[+] [-] oneweekwonder|9 years ago|reply
How does this compare to c9.io?
[+] [-] benologist|9 years ago|reply
HyperDev is specifically for web stuff and really slickly optimized around that handling deployment and everything.
[+] [-] Yahivin|9 years ago|reply
I'm not an expert c9 user, but from my experience with it it is much more about recreating existing development environments on the web.
With HyperDev you don't need to pick a server OS or configure your environment to match your local, it is already set up and deployed. You just need to write the code.
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] peternicky|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rootforce|9 years ago|reply
http://support.hyperweb.space/t/server-side-python-proof-of-...
[+] [-] kristianp|9 years ago|reply
...is a reference to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevenote#.22One_more_thing......