This also doesn't mention the horrible inflexibility of the H-1B once you have it. Once on an H-1B, you literally have ZERO days of unemployment between jobs. If you are fired, laid-off, or leave your job for any reason at all (say health reasons), you technically are out of status and can be deported at any minute. There is an unofficial grace period of about 30 days, which is really not enough to do any kind of a decent job search (and its unofficial, so technically you could be deported at any minute). So the only realistic avenue for H-1Bs is to find a job before leaving the current one - works for most people, but again, if you are laid-off or need to take time off for any reason, its simply not an option. Its a horrible system.
Not to mention, You have to go out of the country to get your visa stamped every 3 yrs. Its nerve-racking to say the least. The guy in front of me at the line in american consulate in Ottawa was begging "visa officer" saying 'I have a house. I need to go back and sell all of it and move my kids', not quite sure what exactly transpired but I got a feeling this was not an uncommon occurrence. I had friends you were stuck in Mexico for 3 months for some kind of 'verification' and consequently lost their jobs.
What decent person would put up with this humiliation uless you are from a really horrid country that you don't want to go back to.
I did not mention it, in my other comment, but that was another key aspect which put me off. When I was single I could have gone along with it reluctantly, as worst case I could come back home and sleep on a couch of a friend if needed, but now that I have a family dependent on me, no way.
Also your spouse cannot work as a dependent. They need to have their own H1-B or any of the other visas. Consider the probability of both spouses getting past the H1B lottery.
This was the exact reason why I applied for a Canadian PR and moved to Canada. The PR process on "express entry" takes roughly 6 to 8 months. The only issue is that the job market and pay in Canada is not as hot (compared to the US market). This is a small price to pay for peace of mind and having the ability to start your own company without any kind of immigration hassle.
I'm moving to the EU so that I can start a company. I looked at all these options and they are incredibly unattractive for a number of reasons:
1) If you want to H1B yourself, you have to demonstrably give up control of your company to a US citizen. What if none of the co-founders are American? What if you're a solo founder?
2) The B1 visa only gives you 6 months to figure out an alternative. It's unclear what the alternative is, and why add that stress during what is a critical time for your startup?
3) If you have $100K you could go for an E2 visa, but it does not lead to a green card. You have to renew every 2 year. Exiting your company? Get ready to exit the country. It also requires you to create a few (single digits) jobs within the first three years, but that seems less onerous
4) My lawyer suggested that an O1 would be unrealistic unless you've been recognized publically somehow.
5) If you have $500k to $1M, you could apply for an EB. I don't, so can't comment too much here.
Fianally, across the board there's an issue of time and money. Dealing with this stuff will be a big headache that will distract from your company.
This. Being on OPT, I went through all of this in the past couple of years. I refused to give in and take up a regular job, just for the opportunity to get a shot at the H1B lottery (which a lot of colleagues and friends have suggested).
I moved from SF back to Mumbai, India(my home country) earlier this year and don't regret it one bit. There's a lot happening here and there's a boom in the startup space in general in the country.
For the US, I definitely see a pretty big negative impact in the long run if the immigration system continues to remain as messed up as it is at the moment. I truly hope some kind of a startup visa is implemented so that future graduates, thinking of starting up do not have to fight against getting kicked out.
I can't be done with doing a 'lottery' to work in the US.
I got offered a senior position (distinguished engineer) with a large San Jose networking vendor, and looking into the H-1B circus put me off.
Perhaps when I was freshly graduated I might have tolerated it, but as someone with a family and lots of very good opportunities already here in Europe (and being able to re-locate with minimal fuss to another EU country (unless we vote ourselves out)), its a nobrainer to stay here. Add to that the whole potential deportation if you were to lose your job, and an average family home in the valley costing well above $1 million, nah, I think I will leave it thanks.
I guess the above is why so few Europeans comes to the US now, and 88% of H-1B's are from India.
>Perhaps when I was freshly graduated I might have tolerated it, but as someone with a family and lots of very good opportunities already here in Europe (and being able to re-locate with minimal fuss to another EU country (unless we vote ourselves out)), its a nobrainer to stay here. Add to that the whole potential deportation if you were to lose your job, and an average family home in the valley costing well above $1 million, nah, I think I will leave it thanks.
This is my train of thought as well. I am here in the US on a student visa about to graduate in spring. Originally, I was thinking about going the H1B route, but the more and more I learn about it, the less I want to bother with it. I have a EU passport, so I guess I am less doomed than maybe an Indian or so. The problem with H1B is that you can't build yourself a life here. How can you create a family and buy a house if you have to worry constantly about deportation? No thanks. Europe might have a lower pay, but I am willing to pay that price for a peace of mind. Plus all my family is in Europe.
tl;dr: If you're a foreign-born entrepreneur, US immigration may be the kick in the pants you need to go global.
If you're an American voter, you should stop kicking foreign-born entrepreneurs in the pants.
Personal anecdata:
I'm Canadian. I have two degrees from UWaterloo (CS & Math), have been on the founding team of three major exits (one "unicorn"), and have a Harvard MBA. I've lived in the US, mostly under TN status, for fifteen years. (Unlike H1-B, TN status is not dual-intent, and does not allow immigration.)
I'm starting a new company now in Canada. Labor-intensive, probably creating a few hundred good jobs in the first year. I'd prefer to start it in the US, preferably Nevada, but have no acceptable way to legally do so.
This was frustrating for a while, but I'm over it. Europe & Asia are operationally more complex to serve, but that's less overhead than immigration. And I've learned the rest of the world has just as much opportunity (and probably more available investment!) than the US.
I'm just one person, but I've seen this play out five or six times among my peer group alone. If you're a non-citizen entrepreneur with valley/NYC connections or US startup experience, I strongly recommend taking that knowledge and competing in the bigger global pool.
As the global economy flattens, the odds are growing every year that the next megacorp in the US market won't be American. The government should be fighting that trend, not doing everything in its power to accelerate it.
edit: "no legal way" => "no acceptable legal way". Anything is possible.
Hmm. From my understanding, a person's chances of getting an H1-B are substantially higher from a large corporation as opposed to a 5 people startup because the large corporations' lawyers submit multiple applications per person (through the subsidiaries)
My brother has to leave his job this month and move back home, after 4 years at UIUC and 3 years in the Bay Area because he chose to work at startups (instead of the large tech companies) and both years the lottery system failed him.
What you say is true only for the outsourcing companies that are in fact gaming (abusing) the H-1 system.
Google and your startup both put in a single application per person for an H-1, and at the end of the day spend more for the H-1 candidate than they would for a local hire (citizen/green card), which is how the system should work.
The post doesn't mention the Green card diversity lotery. It's a long shot and like don't rely on it but the odds are slightly higher than zero. I got it on my third try, my friend on the first.
Don't know where you guys come from, but I think you were incredibly lucky. If I remember correctly, the probability of getting one in my country was around 2%. I tried 5 or 6 times already, a couple of times together with my wife (who is from another country) and we haven't been that lucky.
Diversity lottery is not available for India, China and some others. Isn't the eb2 category for rest if the countries pretty much current? Working on an h1b for a year or two for any company should be enough time to get a greencard.
Much of this article focuses on the applicability of H-1B visa for startup founders. As some comments in this thread share their anecdotal experiences with it, H-1B is very limited in scope.
1.) H-1B relies on a lottery system: with a 0.3 to 0.5 chance depending on some factors,
2.) and you need an independent board of directors,
3.) and you can't be a majority stakeholder.
Not to mention once you get one, if your startup goes to ground, you have a month to find another job or risk being deported. Most startup founders in early life can't afford this.
What US needs is a robust startup visa: Startup founders that have x revenue or investment $$ can come in and work, not H-1B or other diversity visa hacks. It's not so hard, Canada has a pretty decent startup visa program.
The Startup Visa[1] is designed to tackle the issue of visas specifically for founders of startups rather than having founders jump through hoops to fit into the existing visa categories.
Even though it enjoys bi-partisan support, it seems to get stuck in various committees every time it's introduced in Senate and left to expire.
Does anyone have experience with EB-5? I did a startup in Canada, so am fortunate enough to have the 500K/$1M.
It looks like it is fair from a panacea - I haven't yet consulted a lawyer, but based on internet research, it seems like it can be hard to find a legitimate (e.g.: non-scammy) EB-5 Visa project, and the wait times for EB-5 can fairly long. But at least you aren't tied to an employer, and can do whatever you want as long as your investment works out and creates the 10 jobs.
If you had a nice exit you might be able to use that as EB-1 evidence. That would be a much better route than EB-5. Talk to an immigration attorney about it.
>> The research also found that among the billion-dollar startup companies, they have collectively created more than 65,000 jobs. Immigrants clearly play a significant role in job creation, entrepreneurship and the startup ecosystem in the U.S.
Can we please get over this idea that founders conjure jobs out of thin air. Startups and the jobs they create fill a niche in the economy. That niche is the product of the wider world, not the whim of a founder. Even where a startup does create apparently "new" jobs, they often result in other jobs disappearing elsewhere (see uber v. taxis). Bringing in foreign investment is great. But we don't need to treat well-funded founders as a special class beyond the numerous advantages that already come with being well-funded.
I would hate to be the new hire at a "startup" which turns out to be an immigration dodge, a means of getting a group of founders the necessary documentation. There are already other visa categories for such things (EB-5).
> Can we please get over this idea that founders conjure jobs out of thin air. Startups and the jobs they create fill a niche in the economy. That niche is the product of the wider world, not the whim of a founder.
Sure, but practically if not letting a founder enter the country and create a startup means those jobs won't happen, then how does it change the argument for more startup-friendly immigration at all? Are you saying that enough startups with immigrating founders are removing jobs elsewhere like Uber to make it a net negative?
> There are already other visa categories for such things (EB-5).
How about for the foreign founders who don't have $1mm to throw around? I can't say I have data on this, but I suspect $1mm of funds/founder is not reasonable for a lot of startups.
Has Uber really reduced the number of jobs for taxi drivers? If that were the case, then it would mean the average number of medallioned taxis in service (either carrying a passenger, or driving around looking for a passenger) has gone down. Is there any evidence that this is the case? Or is it just that medallion owners get a lower cut from taxi revenues now?
[+] [-] bonobo3000|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dominotw|9 years ago|reply
What decent person would put up with this humiliation uless you are from a really horrid country that you don't want to go back to.
[+] [-] nul_byte|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Bromskloss|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shortsightedsid|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] redmaverick|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fovc|9 years ago|reply
1) If you want to H1B yourself, you have to demonstrably give up control of your company to a US citizen. What if none of the co-founders are American? What if you're a solo founder?
2) The B1 visa only gives you 6 months to figure out an alternative. It's unclear what the alternative is, and why add that stress during what is a critical time for your startup?
3) If you have $100K you could go for an E2 visa, but it does not lead to a green card. You have to renew every 2 year. Exiting your company? Get ready to exit the country. It also requires you to create a few (single digits) jobs within the first three years, but that seems less onerous
4) My lawyer suggested that an O1 would be unrealistic unless you've been recognized publically somehow.
5) If you have $500k to $1M, you could apply for an EB. I don't, so can't comment too much here.
Fianally, across the board there's an issue of time and money. Dealing with this stuff will be a big headache that will distract from your company.
Disclaimer: IANL
[1] https://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/entrepreneur-visa-guide [2] Personal consultation with an immigration lawyer
[+] [-] asenna|9 years ago|reply
I moved from SF back to Mumbai, India(my home country) earlier this year and don't regret it one bit. There's a lot happening here and there's a boom in the startup space in general in the country.
For the US, I definitely see a pretty big negative impact in the long run if the immigration system continues to remain as messed up as it is at the moment. I truly hope some kind of a startup visa is implemented so that future graduates, thinking of starting up do not have to fight against getting kicked out.
[+] [-] ddorian43|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chrisper|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] falsestprophet|9 years ago|reply
And your problem is that you can't stay forever when the business fails?
[+] [-] nul_byte|9 years ago|reply
I got offered a senior position (distinguished engineer) with a large San Jose networking vendor, and looking into the H-1B circus put me off.
Perhaps when I was freshly graduated I might have tolerated it, but as someone with a family and lots of very good opportunities already here in Europe (and being able to re-locate with minimal fuss to another EU country (unless we vote ourselves out)), its a nobrainer to stay here. Add to that the whole potential deportation if you were to lose your job, and an average family home in the valley costing well above $1 million, nah, I think I will leave it thanks.
I guess the above is why so few Europeans comes to the US now, and 88% of H-1B's are from India.
[+] [-] raverbashing|9 years ago|reply
I'm sure Tata abusing the system has nothing to do with it
[+] [-] chrisper|9 years ago|reply
This is my train of thought as well. I am here in the US on a student visa about to graduate in spring. Originally, I was thinking about going the H1B route, but the more and more I learn about it, the less I want to bother with it. I have a EU passport, so I guess I am less doomed than maybe an Indian or so. The problem with H1B is that you can't build yourself a life here. How can you create a family and buy a house if you have to worry constantly about deportation? No thanks. Europe might have a lower pay, but I am willing to pay that price for a peace of mind. Plus all my family is in Europe.
[+] [-] DelaneyM|9 years ago|reply
Personal anecdata:
I'm Canadian. I have two degrees from UWaterloo (CS & Math), have been on the founding team of three major exits (one "unicorn"), and have a Harvard MBA. I've lived in the US, mostly under TN status, for fifteen years. (Unlike H1-B, TN status is not dual-intent, and does not allow immigration.)
I'm starting a new company now in Canada. Labor-intensive, probably creating a few hundred good jobs in the first year. I'd prefer to start it in the US, preferably Nevada, but have no acceptable way to legally do so.
This was frustrating for a while, but I'm over it. Europe & Asia are operationally more complex to serve, but that's less overhead than immigration. And I've learned the rest of the world has just as much opportunity (and probably more available investment!) than the US.
I'm just one person, but I've seen this play out five or six times among my peer group alone. If you're a non-citizen entrepreneur with valley/NYC connections or US startup experience, I strongly recommend taking that knowledge and competing in the bigger global pool.
As the global economy flattens, the odds are growing every year that the next megacorp in the US market won't be American. The government should be fighting that trend, not doing everything in its power to accelerate it.
edit: "no legal way" => "no acceptable legal way". Anything is possible.
[+] [-] dusanbab|9 years ago|reply
Completely understand if you couldn't be bothered at this point though. What a loss for the US.
[+] [-] bentlegen|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] personjerry|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mansigandhi|9 years ago|reply
My brother has to leave his job this month and move back home, after 4 years at UIUC and 3 years in the Bay Area because he chose to work at startups (instead of the large tech companies) and both years the lottery system failed him.
[+] [-] gumby|9 years ago|reply
Google and your startup both put in a single application per person for an H-1, and at the end of the day spend more for the H-1 candidate than they would for a local hire (citizen/green card), which is how the system should work.
[+] [-] adamnemecek|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] snicky|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neeleshs|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chrisper|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sidi|9 years ago|reply
1.) H-1B relies on a lottery system: with a 0.3 to 0.5 chance depending on some factors,
2.) and you need an independent board of directors,
3.) and you can't be a majority stakeholder.
Not to mention once you get one, if your startup goes to ground, you have a month to find another job or risk being deported. Most startup founders in early life can't afford this.
What US needs is a robust startup visa: Startup founders that have x revenue or investment $$ can come in and work, not H-1B or other diversity visa hacks. It's not so hard, Canada has a pretty decent startup visa program.
[+] [-] dineshp2|9 years ago|reply
Even though it enjoys bi-partisan support, it seems to get stuck in various committees every time it's introduced in Senate and left to expire.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startup_Visa
[+] [-] known|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vigilant|9 years ago|reply
It looks like it is fair from a panacea - I haven't yet consulted a lawyer, but based on internet research, it seems like it can be hard to find a legitimate (e.g.: non-scammy) EB-5 Visa project, and the wait times for EB-5 can fairly long. But at least you aren't tied to an employer, and can do whatever you want as long as your investment works out and creates the 10 jobs.
[+] [-] dusanbab|9 years ago|reply
Bear in mind that these projects are often not funded through traditional means and ergo are more risky.
[+] [-] jgh|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sandworm101|9 years ago|reply
Can we please get over this idea that founders conjure jobs out of thin air. Startups and the jobs they create fill a niche in the economy. That niche is the product of the wider world, not the whim of a founder. Even where a startup does create apparently "new" jobs, they often result in other jobs disappearing elsewhere (see uber v. taxis). Bringing in foreign investment is great. But we don't need to treat well-funded founders as a special class beyond the numerous advantages that already come with being well-funded.
I would hate to be the new hire at a "startup" which turns out to be an immigration dodge, a means of getting a group of founders the necessary documentation. There are already other visa categories for such things (EB-5).
[+] [-] johncolanduoni|9 years ago|reply
Sure, but practically if not letting a founder enter the country and create a startup means those jobs won't happen, then how does it change the argument for more startup-friendly immigration at all? Are you saying that enough startups with immigrating founders are removing jobs elsewhere like Uber to make it a net negative?
> There are already other visa categories for such things (EB-5).
How about for the foreign founders who don't have $1mm to throw around? I can't say I have data on this, but I suspect $1mm of funds/founder is not reasonable for a lot of startups.
[+] [-] rahimnathwani|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tempw|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hackerboos|9 years ago|reply
Would that work under the L1 requirements?
[+] [-] adorearun|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
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