Stockholm has severe housing problem. It is impossible to get long term contracts which means you have to move somewhere else every six months approximately. Living expenses are too high comparing to low salaries. Only a few companies in Stockholm pay higher than 40k swedish krona. (that means 25k after tax. 25k -> 2.6k euros). If you are not a native here, you can only get a flat through black market. Eventually, you pay around 8k-12k sek for a single bedroom with 30 mins commute. Tough winter is also another case.
Denmark has better chance for being the capital of startups in Europe. Higher pay and no rent problem. Stockholm obviously is not going to scale.
If you are planning to move EU, I would definitely suggest Berlin. You can make 55k-70k euros easily. Cheap rent and food. Nothing to say about its nightlife. (best in EU)
It is very common for Swedish startups to incorporate in the UK, even if you keep the office in Sweden. It is easier and cheaper to incorporate there, and you get better access to London VCs. I wonder if that will get more difficult.
I think Berlin will benefit from brexit but I'm more interested in watching Dublin. Seems to me it should do very well: big tech companies already there, attractive corp tax rates, cheap and easy to incorporate a company (AFAIK?), similar legal concepts and biz regs as the UK, similar banking environment, cheaper rents, everyone speaks english, there are local VCs and presumably London VCs would also find it very easy/familiar to invest.
The one thing the UK still has going for it is SEIS/EIS but there's nothing preventing other countries copying this (e.g. Portugal is about to introduce something similar to SEIS).
Shouldn't we hope that something does? By all accounts, the house price situation in London has become bad enough that it's wiping out the middle class, which is very bad news; the rise of the middle class was a key factor in enabling the transition from feudal society to modern civilization.
But while I'm here, I'll throw in a shameless plug: Dublin is still in the EU, and is an English-speaking capital city with modern infrastructure, a skilled workforce, a pleasant climate and low corporate taxes.
The house-pricing problem is not due to startups (although this has put pressure on/gentrified a few small areas). The startup scene is a very small part of London as a whole. It is the combination of under-investment in new housing, building the wrong types of new housing (vast luxury flats instead of smaller, affordable units), and selling large amounts of it to foreign buyers as investments (often left unoccupied), putting further pressure on the remaining stock. Many other factors too - it's a big complicated mess, but these are some of the biggest ones.
-Enjoy low corporate tax rate of 12.5%? Pro-business government?
-Enjoy friendly, well educated, English speaking, Pro-American people, good beer, decent music, nice quality of life, low crime and safe green natural environment? (Look how much fun even our soccer fans are http://www.irishexaminer.com/euro2016/euro2016-banter/10-rea...)
Invest in Ireland -> http://www.idaireland.com
This has been a public service announcement from the country next door. #irelandlovesyou :)
The middle-class seems to be something tied to a different era, of industrialization and lifetime jobs. The dwindling middle-class may have more to do with our changing work behavior and desires, than it does cost of living?
Europe never had a proper startup capital, or more accurately never did well at startups in general. It's not unlikely that there will just be less investment, nobody has to win.
Given the very small numbers, every European country [1] has a lot of potential to multiply their startup output. I doubt any trade deals or policy changes are going to bring it about. Not happening without major cultural change IMO. One might as well say that UK just 'bought' itself the ticket to make some major changes (tho I'm not betting my money on it either).
Just look at Israel, that tiny 8 million country consistently tops most European countries in terms of absolute funding. [0]
I have been in Berlin for 8 years and would not change it for London at all. In data science at least there's far more action here. More interesting technologies (Flink), people taking more technological risk and reaping the benefits.
The point the article is trying to make wrt immigration is that when the UK leaves the EU, it will also leave the free movement of workers zone, making it harder to attract immigrants, regardless of how London feels about them.
Offtopic-ish; What makes London attractive besides investors though? I work at a (fintech) startup with an office just outside London and I don't see much positive things for startups there at all compared to, say, Berlin besides money. I see partners and other startups we work with moving out of London for all the reasons I would say London is not all that great for startups. Again, outside companies who get millions of funding so they can pay to be in London.
Silicon Valley is ...nice...in certain areas...but overall, I don't like the US way of planning living areas - seems like that unless you have a lot money, you'll be living in some endless suburban sprawl and commuting 90 minutes to work in bumper-to-bumper traffic.
I know pay in Berlin must be lower compared to that in the Valley, but what's life in Berlin like if you're in software?
How's the job situation, relative pay, quality of life? Does anyone regret living there? How are the locals treating you?
I have an EU passport and already speak a little bit of German, if that matters....
Berlin is a really cheap city by European standards for developed countries, I live in Stockholm and just went two weekends straight to Berlin (I really love the city), basically if you work with software you're well off.
Food, drinks, entertainment, everything is cheap, your salary will be around €50~55k/year, that means you'll probably get close to €3k/month after taxes, rent is raising but it's still cheap for an European capital (between €700~1.2k depending on what you are looking for) and probably around €150 for utilities (maybe a little less, I'm basing on the numbers a friend who's moving there has been telling me).
Plenty of job openings, every day I check them and there are tons of new openings on LinkedIn, SO Careers, Landing.jobs, etc.
Overall seems to be a great city to live if you like urban gritty cities, I personally love it and plan to move there next year if possible.
Probably you can regret it if you are looking for a calm city to live in, Berlin is very alive and kicking all the time, the Germans I know from Berlin are among the friendliest people I've know in my life (and I'm Brazilian).
And knowing German seems to help a lot, the locals mostly know English but they can be a bit shy to speak it all the time so when you eventually end up with a bunch of Germans they'll be speaking German between them.
Please, if someone see any misinformation correct me as I'm very interested to know better.
> Was London at any point the startup capital of Europe?
Yes, very much so. I am an experienced Data scientists, and I looked around Europe for the last four years, needing a new job every three to six months, and London consistently had the top 5 best offers, be it in quality of the project, money raised, size of the db, etc. The conferences have been consistently larger, better and more relevant here than in Paris, Stockholm, Helsinki. The Meet-ups everywhere were good, but you have usually 5 people who are familiar with your specific implementation at most, 10 more considering it; in London, you have three to ten times that many people.
I have not tried working in Berlin yet, but all signs seem positive, and life is much cheaper there.
From a UK perspective, we've largely thrown our eggs into one basket with London. It's the financial capital, but it's also the best place to work if you're involved in design, programming, recruitment, law, etc. With so much going on in London, it's only natural that you set up shop there if you want to play in the big leagues, or to move to London when you reach a certain size and want to work with the big players. I imagine funding also plays a huge part in the startup scene in London too. It's where the money is, after all.
Purely anecdotal, but London is regularly referred to as the FinTech capital of Europe, and it often seems to be because London doesn't have a lot of startup success stories to boast about. For me, the startup buzz in the UK tends to be smaller outfits away from London, either close to top universities (Oxbridge) or in larger cities with an existing digital culture (Bristol, Manchester).
Again, purely anecdotal, but I know a few people that have moved from London to Berlin, and they couldn't be happier.
As for London's time as banking capital of Europe being over - at this stage all anyone knows for sure is that a "small" majority of the UK voting public voted indidacated they would like the UK to leave the current EU - that's it.
And at this early stage absolutely none of the UK or EU governing bodies or institutions currently know how this leaving process is going to be implemented or end - if it even starts.
Also curious about that. A few years ago (maybe 2011) another article also stated that Berlin now (=2011) wins against London as the new startup capital. As a Berliner one remembers that.
>> Was London at any point the startup capital of Europe?
Yes. On paper, London was home to countless new companies funded by billions of dollars. The fact that those companies were asset tools, ghosts incapable of producing anything beyond tax advantages, doesn't take away from their definition as "startups".
> The "startup capital of Europe"? Is that like being the soccer capital of America?
Wouldn't that mean that Europe has a fairly strong, by global terms, actual performance in startups, despite European popular culture mostly ignoring startups?
>I don't view Berlin as a viable replacement as a top start-up hub because wages in Berlin are simply ludicrously low.
>With Google's investment in the Zurich office, and the much, much more internationally competitive wages you can earn in Switzerland, I think Zurich could be better positioned.
>There's certainly no reason to believe that specifically an EU city would be the next to take off. And in most other ways, the Swiss job market is just much more competitive.
>I'm also depressed by the article using a picture of an anti-human violently wide open co-working space as a stereotype of a thriving start-up culture. Nothing says you're being totally taken advantage of like a wide open floor plan.
I don't understand your points about wages being too low in Berlin. If low wages are a problem for a start-up, what is keeping it from offering high wages, even in Berlin?
On the other hand, I could imagine that start-ups would rather keep costs low, especially in the beginning. Then it would be a problem to be situated in a city like Zurich.
I'd love to see the tech landscape in Zürich grow but there are a few problems:
- Sponsoring non-EU immigrants has become extremely difficult in Swizterland.
- Google trounces the competition by a margin that is completely out of reach for European start-ups.
- Switzerland itself is a very small market. The cash-flow of your typical SaaS start-up is going to be mostly in € or $ with all the associated burdens and risks.
Also it's funny you mention Amsterdam since from what I've seen, wages are even lower than in Berlin, which is insane given the higher CoL.
This will hopefully trigger a Central European response (in part caused by stemming emigration). Germany pays into the coffers of the EU in order to basically pay for access to cheap labor from the East and to keep borders open to push its products without suffering tariffs. The result is that Germany experiences a net benefit but at the cost of draining the East of labor it needs to rebuild after the Cold War and stamping out competition in those countries by flooding the market with its products, thus stifling the growth of the economic base in those countries (turning a country like Poland into a giant German service center isn't creating an economic base, it's economic colonialism). This way, Germany maintains dependence and superiority. The only solution for that region is to form the Intermarium to counteract German and Russian dominance in the region. It's an old idea that sadly didn't have the opportunity to be implemented, but perhaps its time has come.
I think Berlin and Stockholm are two of the front runners of being "Startup Capital" (whatever that is suppose to mean), having lived in both I can offer some reflections, IMHO of course.
Stockholm is pretty great when it comes to technical and investment maturity. We blew through and did all the stupid dotcom stuff in late 90's, while some have been repeated many successful entrepreneurs learned from that time. Internet access has been really good leading to a lot of good technical talent. It's a beautiful city that want's to be "international" and overall things are very polished. Sweden's also has a track record of producing a few gigantic hits such as Spotify, Soundcloud, Klarna, Skype, Minecraft etc etc.
On the downside the housing situation is insane and everyone has borrowed to the hilt trying to keep up with the ever increasing prices. You can't get hold of an apartment without buying. It's also a pretty expensive place to live. It get's pretty dark & pissy in the winters but summer's are great. I used say that living in Stockholm is 9 months of wondering why the hell you live here and three months where you get the answer.
Berlin in contrast feels like something very unique in Europe and Germany. It's like melting pot of different countries and not quite grown up mentality. Housing is still relatively accessible and affordable, there's even rental contracts to be had. Food and drink is overall cheaper. The startup spirit in Berlin still felt a bit naive when I was there, like a first wave city, but it's big and enthusiastic. However they seem to struggle to product big hits outside of their own country. Maybe the difference between Sweden and Germany is that Sweden is so little we have to go international, and also we're more anglofied. Big companies generally haven't been so big on Berlin since they don't have an international airport, leaving the city wide open for everyone else. On the downside Berlin is a bit meh when it comes to scenery and nature.
Outside the tech scene the English in Berlin is pretty bad and some look down at any not speaking German. Swedes grow up with English and most love every opportunity to use it.
I think there's a good bet Berlin will start to dominate as a "Silicon Valley of Europe", if nothing else because there's a vacuum there that can be filled, and it will become even more international than german. Even Swedes look at Berlin simply because it's cheaper and more accessible. It also has a bit bigger scene when it comes to small "startuppy" kinda ventures while Stockholm dominates on the more serious ones.
Working as an employee seems to suck in Berlin because everyone is looking for a job and job's pay poorly. But if you work for yourself and/or with investment money that doesn't matter and you're in a good position to leverage that money.
As a developer I'd wish companies would treat Europe more like United States of Europe and generally accept remote positions in order to have a broader pool of talent and allow employees to economically make the most out of their salary.
I don't want startup capitals, I want an adjustment of mindsets that goes with the rest of the tech advancements.
I've had interviews for already internationally distributed teams where the HR manager insisted on having me full-time onsite without a good argument.
Feel free to enjoy our 40000 - 50000 EUR salaries (I'm not saying whether this is bad or good, it's just something to be aware of; don't expect any SV silliness regarding salary here).
Now in a position? Ask Londoners and they will tell you that Berlin has already won that battle. The thing is that Berlin is already expected to be on the downturn, actually.
[+] [-] nabla9|9 years ago|reply
If there is startup capital in Europe, it's Stockholm.
https://medium.com/creandum-family/the-nordics-in-context-th...
[+] [-] harryf|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] m00dy|9 years ago|reply
Denmark has better chance for being the capital of startups in Europe. Higher pay and no rent problem. Stockholm obviously is not going to scale.
If you are planning to move EU, I would definitely suggest Berlin. You can make 55k-70k euros easily. Cheap rent and food. Nothing to say about its nightlife. (best in EU)
[+] [-] TorKlingberg|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bogomipz|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johnchristopher|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] corford|9 years ago|reply
The one thing the UK still has going for it is SEIS/EIS but there's nothing preventing other countries copying this (e.g. Portugal is about to introduce something similar to SEIS).
[+] [-] cylinder|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rwallace|9 years ago|reply
But while I'm here, I'll throw in a shameless plug: Dublin is still in the EU, and is an English-speaking capital city with modern infrastructure, a skilled workforce, a pleasant climate and low corporate taxes.
[+] [-] fredley|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lgieron|9 years ago|reply
I've heard that washing your car in Ireland is a non-issue; the climate takes care of that.
[+] [-] secfirstmd|9 years ago|reply
-Want to stay in the EU?
-Want to trade in the Eurozone?
-Enjoy low corporate tax rate of 12.5%? Pro-business government?
-Enjoy friendly, well educated, English speaking, Pro-American people, good beer, decent music, nice quality of life, low crime and safe green natural environment? (Look how much fun even our soccer fans are http://www.irishexaminer.com/euro2016/euro2016-banter/10-rea...)
Invest in Ireland -> http://www.idaireland.com This has been a public service announcement from the country next door. #irelandlovesyou :)
[+] [-] cyphunk|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] parennoob|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Wintamute|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] auganov|9 years ago|reply
Given the very small numbers, every European country [1] has a lot of potential to multiply their startup output. I doubt any trade deals or policy changes are going to bring it about. Not happening without major cultural change IMO. One might as well say that UK just 'bought' itself the ticket to make some major changes (tho I'm not betting my money on it either).
Just look at Israel, that tiny 8 million country consistently tops most European countries in terms of absolute funding. [0]
[0] http://www.slideshare.net/gdibner/europe-israel-4-q14-deals-... [1] maybe with exception of Sweden, it seems to pull of good numbers sometimes (given the small population), but doesn't seem consistent
[+] [-] huac|9 years ago|reply
I'm not sure how the Nordic countries get around that though. A stronger social safety net is probably negatively correlated with risk-aversion.
[+] [-] urlwolf|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TorKlingberg|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HalfwayToDice|9 years ago|reply
The things that make London attractive to startups will stay the same. Not being in the EU won't change that.
Additionally, it talks about UK attitudes to immigration, but London is completely separate from the rest of the UK in terms of these sort of things.
Expect a lot of very silly things to be written about UK/EU over the coming months.
[+] [-] div|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tluyben2|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tacostakohashi|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PopsiclePete|9 years ago|reply
I know pay in Berlin must be lower compared to that in the Valley, but what's life in Berlin like if you're in software?
How's the job situation, relative pay, quality of life? Does anyone regret living there? How are the locals treating you?
I have an EU passport and already speak a little bit of German, if that matters....
[+] [-] piva00|9 years ago|reply
Food, drinks, entertainment, everything is cheap, your salary will be around €50~55k/year, that means you'll probably get close to €3k/month after taxes, rent is raising but it's still cheap for an European capital (between €700~1.2k depending on what you are looking for) and probably around €150 for utilities (maybe a little less, I'm basing on the numbers a friend who's moving there has been telling me).
Plenty of job openings, every day I check them and there are tons of new openings on LinkedIn, SO Careers, Landing.jobs, etc.
Overall seems to be a great city to live if you like urban gritty cities, I personally love it and plan to move there next year if possible.
Probably you can regret it if you are looking for a calm city to live in, Berlin is very alive and kicking all the time, the Germans I know from Berlin are among the friendliest people I've know in my life (and I'm Brazilian).
And knowing German seems to help a lot, the locals mostly know English but they can be a bit shy to speak it all the time so when you eventually end up with a bunch of Germans they'll be speaking German between them.
Please, if someone see any misinformation correct me as I'm very interested to know better.
[+] [-] robert_foss|9 years ago|reply
Maybe it was the banking capital of Europe, but that time is over now.
[+] [-] bertil|9 years ago|reply
Yes, very much so. I am an experienced Data scientists, and I looked around Europe for the last four years, needing a new job every three to six months, and London consistently had the top 5 best offers, be it in quality of the project, money raised, size of the db, etc. The conferences have been consistently larger, better and more relevant here than in Paris, Stockholm, Helsinki. The Meet-ups everywhere were good, but you have usually 5 people who are familiar with your specific implementation at most, 10 more considering it; in London, you have three to ten times that many people.
I have not tried working in Berlin yet, but all signs seem positive, and life is much cheaper there.
[+] [-] EnderMB|9 years ago|reply
Purely anecdotal, but London is regularly referred to as the FinTech capital of Europe, and it often seems to be because London doesn't have a lot of startup success stories to boast about. For me, the startup buzz in the UK tends to be smaller outfits away from London, either close to top universities (Oxbridge) or in larger cities with an existing digital culture (Bristol, Manchester).
Again, purely anecdotal, but I know a few people that have moved from London to Berlin, and they couldn't be happier.
[+] [-] Stephen_C|9 years ago|reply
As for London's time as banking capital of Europe being over - at this stage all anyone knows for sure is that a "small" majority of the UK voting public voted indidacated they would like the UK to leave the current EU - that's it.
And at this early stage absolutely none of the UK or EU governing bodies or institutions currently know how this leaving process is going to be implemented or end - if it even starts.
[+] [-] nailer|9 years ago|reply
Regarding being the banking capital: it's been two business days. You might be jumping the gun just a little. ;-)
[+] [-] erikb|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sandworm101|9 years ago|reply
Yes. On paper, London was home to countless new companies funded by billions of dollars. The fact that those companies were asset tools, ghosts incapable of producing anything beyond tax advantages, doesn't take away from their definition as "startups".
[+] [-] 794CD01|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dragonwriter|9 years ago|reply
Wouldn't that mean that Europe has a fairly strong, by global terms, actual performance in startups, despite European popular culture mostly ignoring startups?
[+] [-] nailer|9 years ago|reply
Like Brazil? Yes, it is.
[+] [-] erikb|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] p4wnc6|9 years ago|reply
I'll repeat the comment I gave there:
>I don't view Berlin as a viable replacement as a top start-up hub because wages in Berlin are simply ludicrously low.
>With Google's investment in the Zurich office, and the much, much more internationally competitive wages you can earn in Switzerland, I think Zurich could be better positioned.
>There's certainly no reason to believe that specifically an EU city would be the next to take off. And in most other ways, the Swiss job market is just much more competitive.
>I'm also depressed by the article using a picture of an anti-human violently wide open co-working space as a stereotype of a thriving start-up culture. Nothing says you're being totally taken advantage of like a wide open floor plan.
[+] [-] misja111|9 years ago|reply
On the other hand, I could imagine that start-ups would rather keep costs low, especially in the beginning. Then it would be a problem to be situated in a city like Zurich.
[+] [-] hocuspocus|9 years ago|reply
- Sponsoring non-EU immigrants has become extremely difficult in Swizterland.
- Google trounces the competition by a margin that is completely out of reach for European start-ups.
- Switzerland itself is a very small market. The cash-flow of your typical SaaS start-up is going to be mostly in € or $ with all the associated burdens and risks.
Also it's funny you mention Amsterdam since from what I've seen, wages are even lower than in Berlin, which is insane given the higher CoL.
[+] [-] philefstat|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] romanovcode|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bobthechef|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mhomde|9 years ago|reply
Stockholm is pretty great when it comes to technical and investment maturity. We blew through and did all the stupid dotcom stuff in late 90's, while some have been repeated many successful entrepreneurs learned from that time. Internet access has been really good leading to a lot of good technical talent. It's a beautiful city that want's to be "international" and overall things are very polished. Sweden's also has a track record of producing a few gigantic hits such as Spotify, Soundcloud, Klarna, Skype, Minecraft etc etc.
On the downside the housing situation is insane and everyone has borrowed to the hilt trying to keep up with the ever increasing prices. You can't get hold of an apartment without buying. It's also a pretty expensive place to live. It get's pretty dark & pissy in the winters but summer's are great. I used say that living in Stockholm is 9 months of wondering why the hell you live here and three months where you get the answer.
Berlin in contrast feels like something very unique in Europe and Germany. It's like melting pot of different countries and not quite grown up mentality. Housing is still relatively accessible and affordable, there's even rental contracts to be had. Food and drink is overall cheaper. The startup spirit in Berlin still felt a bit naive when I was there, like a first wave city, but it's big and enthusiastic. However they seem to struggle to product big hits outside of their own country. Maybe the difference between Sweden and Germany is that Sweden is so little we have to go international, and also we're more anglofied. Big companies generally haven't been so big on Berlin since they don't have an international airport, leaving the city wide open for everyone else. On the downside Berlin is a bit meh when it comes to scenery and nature.
Outside the tech scene the English in Berlin is pretty bad and some look down at any not speaking German. Swedes grow up with English and most love every opportunity to use it.
I think there's a good bet Berlin will start to dominate as a "Silicon Valley of Europe", if nothing else because there's a vacuum there that can be filled, and it will become even more international than german. Even Swedes look at Berlin simply because it's cheaper and more accessible. It also has a bit bigger scene when it comes to small "startuppy" kinda ventures while Stockholm dominates on the more serious ones.
Working as an employee seems to suck in Berlin because everyone is looking for a job and job's pay poorly. But if you work for yourself and/or with investment money that doesn't matter and you're in a good position to leverage that money.
[+] [-] lalibrew|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cm3|9 years ago|reply
I don't want startup capitals, I want an adjustment of mindsets that goes with the rest of the tech advancements.
I've had interviews for already internationally distributed teams where the HR manager insisted on having me full-time onsite without a good argument.
[+] [-] jomamaxx|9 years ago|reply
Brexit has really no direct consequence on startups.
With housing prices down and no worries about EU legislation, London would be a great place.
The only outstanding issue would be how the new EU worker visa program would work.
Neither London nor Berlin were huge on startups, this won't materially change anything.
[+] [-] _pmf_|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] erikb|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mavsman|9 years ago|reply