This turned out to be a lot more serious and interesting than I expected. From the headline, Hall sounded like a Mormon nutcase. But his plans are actually a lot more realistic than you'd expect: a planned development of 20,000 people is not crazy. He's also putting real effort into the engineering required to fulfill the density of his vision. It also sounds like he's trying to make the venture sustainable and appears to have found some success in revenue through licensing or more traditional development projects.
He's probably crazy to be trying it in Vermont though. He'll have to import voters before he can get anything approved.
Maybe he just needs to listen to his PR people more. Downplay the Mormon angle, talk more about environmental efficiency, and pitch the communistic aspects—he might just get more sympathy.
"He's probably crazy to be trying it in Vermont though," is an understatement. The largest city in Vermont, Burlington, only has a population of ~40,000. He's proposing a city half the size of Burlington in the middle of fucking nowhere.
Vermonters are VERY resistant to people trying to change their landscape or way of life, and as you might expect, they (myself included) are not thrilled with this plan.
I think it's extremely unlikely that this development would be sustainable in rural VT.
It's also worth noting that, despite the purported focus on 'sustainability', the corporation/cult ironically plans to rely upon drilling for fossil fuels and mining to remain profitable. Which is, by definition, not sustainable.
I would love to see an Arcology, I always enjoyed Oath of Fealty mainly for the ideas he referenced about one. With regards to the article, a sustainable community built with the drive of someone similar to Disney might be able to work, the issue outside of money and drive is NIMBYs. We certainly have the technology to do it.
However, you don't need complete independence, I think energy independence and protecting the environment with a family and pedestrian friendly layout are the best achievable goals
As a Mormon myself, I've never heard of this guy or his plans. I've heard of lots of "niche" Mormons with crazy ideas though, so I read on for entertainment purposes.
I was pretty surprised by the quality of thought going into the project. This guy probably has a lot in common with the HN crowd so I can see why the article was submitted. He's a type of visionary/intuitive/big-picture thinker, someone who is concerned about the quality of systems, sustainability, things like that.
The end of the article outlines the problem nicely though; there's a real conundrum--do we trust the guy who seems to know what he's doing and addresses the exact problems we complain about, or do we trust our fears that something always seems to go wrong?
It reminds me a bit of the Daybreak[1] privately built master planned community in Utah build by a mining company. Not sure how well it's coming along, but seems like they wanted everything to be walkable and pleasant.
This man is my uncle. FYI, I have NO affiliation with the project, but I have watched it with rapt attention since I have connections to both the Mormon community and “Uncle David,” as well as very close Vermont friends, so I definitely see both sides of the coin. Again, ZERO affiliation other than relation, but happy to answer any questions from an unofficial role. ;)
That's really cool. Do you know of any sources for his inspiration other than JS? And any standout memories of your uncle you can share? He seems like a really intelligent guy. It'd be neat if some scaled-down version of this could be tested without creating so many waves.
Completely off-topic random question: how closely related are Mormon families, generally? With similarly insular populations (Mormons seem to tend to marry other Mormons), that have families that are larger than normal, it seems like family ties would proliferate and you'd end up with communities that are rather closely knit through webs of marriage.
Do you have any idea how sustainable/profitable his ventures are?
It sounds like he's been trying to license technology to finance the venture. There's also a mention of other nearer-term real estate developments. Has any of this worked, or is he basically just spending his fortune down?
Off-topic too but are all Mormons successful, or do we (the world-wide general public) just see them because they talk about being wealthy, successful and Mormon at the same time, and the evangelists give the impression too because they all wear well-cut suits?
Can you comment on how hard it would be to get 20,000 Mormons to move to Vermont? Would such a big migration have to be endorsed by the church hierarchy? Where would these 20,000 people work?
David Hall has been my boss for the past 10 years. I have worked a little on some of these projects over the years but I work for the oil & gas part of the company that was sold to Schlumberger. David has lots of ideas, many I have helped him kill quickly. Some are great though and have lead to major innovations in diamond technology, oil & gas drilling, and a growing number of other fields.
I'm from Salt Lake City and a former Mormon. I want to emphasize former because I'm in no way affiliated with the church and have a bit of lifelong bitterness toward it (used to be much worse, mostly over it now) and while I think a lot of things about Mormonism are completely stupid, they sure know how to build cities and be settlers and pioneers.
I think that mentality has passed through generations and it's really exciting to see this kind of advanced utopian dream come to life, even if it pisses off neighbors and if it ultimately fails.
I'm obsessed with cities and I would love to see this turn into the vision that Joseph smith had in mind, even if all his other visions are laughable loads of whatever.
>>> Rooftop farms will make use of advanced techniques drawn from marijuana cultivation, and box-shaped greenhouses will improve yields and prevent the spread of disease and insects.
So many of these grand plans do not appreciate the manpower necessary to harvest crops. If you want to do everything by hand, in tiny batches without the advantages of large mechanized devices, 90+% of the people are going to be engaged primarily in cultivation. That might have been fine 200+ years ago, but not today.
The problem with implementation is not one of planning, but of wants and needs. Does everyone here, or at least 90% of you, want to be a farmer? Growing your own tomatoes on the balcony is fine when you are a 20-somthing kid. Try growing enough for you, your partner, three kids, gran and grandpa, the dog ... suddenly those big greenhouses and giant JohnDeer harvesters are looking a little less evil.
I hope he doesn't have a repeat of the The Mormon War of 1838 where Mormons tried to massively settle areas and then take over the government of the area and mold that government according to their own values with little consideration of the current residents.
There are things that are highly concerning:
'A plat, says Hall, will be subject to state and regional laws, but will also be overseen by a board and heirachries of leaders with, it appears, strong Mormon Family values.'
'Families and individuals who wish to join must invest their net worth...'
'Those who start Vista Bizzes will be given startup funds by thte community but must surrender their IP rights. They also must agree to put nearly all their profits back into the community in exchance for what Hall calls "dividends" -- payouts from overall wealth earned by the plat businesses.'
I don't say this lightly, but how is this not a plan for building a Communist cult with an explicit plan to centralize power of the plats, presumably to Hall himself?
> I don't say this lightly, but how is this not a plan for building a Communist cult with an explicit plan to centralize power of the plats, presumably to Hall himself?
From the paragraph you quoted:
> But everyone is also free to leave and take their companies with them, if dissatisfied. "Competition and the freedom to walk is crucial," he says.
My initial comparison was going to be to the Free State Project -- not as an insult, as I like FSP, but the idea of congregating enough people in one area to tip the scales of politics, hopefully as a "proof of concept" for "how to do governance right".
I found it odd that several brands were mentioned where it adds nothing to the story; feels like product placement in soap opera's. e.g. Moleskin and Toyota; anyone know if they are actually getting paid for putting in those brand names?
Knowing that someone uses Moleskine notebooks adds nothing to the story? To me, it says a lot. Writers are taught to be specific, in part because it keeps a story interesting and makes it more vivid. I'd attribute the details to that over paid product placement. But then again I'm not an "idea man" who ignores inconvenient details when they can't be reconciled with my amazing vision based on something a lunatic scribbled on an 18th century cocktail napkin
That's exactly what I thought. Mentioning those products was useless and they gave way too much about details about that. It felt like the same product placement of the movies.
It's like people only do these things because they can get paid. And that's just really sad.
I think it is just a writing device for tying the story to the real world and building character. Bloomberg does that quite often, "oh it's the type of person who drives a Toyota".
I grew up in Vermont. Friends that still live there have been telling me about this. The biggest potential problem is that he will be able to take over the town and outvote those who have lived there for years. Like many places in Vermont there is likely only one road that runs through the town and many are worried there will be issue once this man owns all the land around it. But there is quite a few other established cults in Vermont. I assume it will end happening and not being that big of a deal. Vermonters MO is to leave people alone and let them do what they want.
This seems like an insane thing to do in that part of Vermont. TFA doesn't have a map anywhere in it, but this is on the eastern edge of Vermont, near Hanover, NH, and Queechee, VT, except slightly north and farther away from those islands of quasi-civilization. I went to school near there, and spent almost a month building trail on the AT right around this area one summer. It's a backwards, old-timey redneck New England farming community, that reminds me far too much of my home in the Sandy River valley of Maine (aka I would love to live there and be a subsistence farmer...)
The link to Mormonism is incredibly tenuous here. It seems that Hall's plans look vaguely like a grid, and so did Joseph Smith's. That's about the limit of the connection.
As someone who lives not to far from here can I say, this is nuts. Mega-city and Vermont are opposites. It just seems crazy that someone with tons of money and nothing to spend it on can just walk in and try to build a city in the middle of nowhere and where everybody there besides him wants it that way.
One Vista Biz, called Medic, is developing a water-efficient toilet that also measures blood pressure, weight, and overall health by using sensors and sampling what passes through it. Hall hopes insurance companies will eventually cover the costs of installing such toilets at companies to track worker health.
This seems like a blatant invasion/abuse of privacy. Not to mention requiring people to give up their net worth and surrender all IP to live at the place.
The irony is that Vermont is already basically its own utopian community, where the culture is that development never gets approved unless it's being done by a resident of the state. Oh and you're not considered a resident unless you've been there at least generations. If Hall moves there now, maybe they'll let his great grandkids start building it. (If they can get the ski mountains to sell them any water rights, which isn't likely.)
The state is very far from being a utopia, and new development does get routinely approved (though it can be controversial). We do tend to oppose giant chains or people trying to push systems onto the state.
Mormons were persecuted and kept moving west to avoid persecution. As their new settlements became cities, people would get nervous again and push them out. Eventually, they simply packed up and moved west until they were outside of the Unites States (Utah was not a state at the time).
Utah became a state only after Mormons agreed to stop practicing polygamy.
Utah was a literal hell on earth: desert, rocks, salt lakes, extremely remote. Think Roadrunner and Wile E. Coyote. Few Americans wanted it, so when the Mormons pushed their wheelbarrows (no shit!) there, they found no one disgusted enough with nontraditional Mormon family structures to run them off as previous communities had. The Mormons weren't super thrilled with Utah either, but through years of hard work they made it somewhat livable.
[+] [-] morgante|9 years ago|reply
He's probably crazy to be trying it in Vermont though. He'll have to import voters before he can get anything approved.
Maybe he just needs to listen to his PR people more. Downplay the Mormon angle, talk more about environmental efficiency, and pitch the communistic aspects—he might just get more sympathy.
[+] [-] phineastcat|9 years ago|reply
Vermonters are VERY resistant to people trying to change their landscape or way of life, and as you might expect, they (myself included) are not thrilled with this plan.
[+] [-] snsr|9 years ago|reply
It's also worth noting that, despite the purported focus on 'sustainability', the corporation/cult ironically plans to rely upon drilling for fossil fuels and mining to remain profitable. Which is, by definition, not sustainable.
Vermont's Act 250 also likely precludes this development. http://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/files/permit-handbook/sheet...
[+] [-] T0T0R0|9 years ago|reply
Go ahead and change the word Mormon to something else, and notice how repugnant everything becomes.
[+] [-] dwaxe|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Shivetya|9 years ago|reply
However, you don't need complete independence, I think energy independence and protecting the environment with a family and pedestrian friendly layout are the best achievable goals
[+] [-] jonnycowboy|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] themodelplumber|9 years ago|reply
I was pretty surprised by the quality of thought going into the project. This guy probably has a lot in common with the HN crowd so I can see why the article was submitted. He's a type of visionary/intuitive/big-picture thinker, someone who is concerned about the quality of systems, sustainability, things like that.
The end of the article outlines the problem nicely though; there's a real conundrum--do we trust the guy who seems to know what he's doing and addresses the exact problems we complain about, or do we trust our fears that something always seems to go wrong?
[+] [-] mc32|9 years ago|reply
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_(community)
[+] [-] arxpoetica|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] themodelplumber|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] douche|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wwweston|9 years ago|reply
(Possibly not the question you had in mind, but...)
[+] [-] morgante|9 years ago|reply
It sounds like he's been trying to license technology to finance the venture. There's also a mention of other nearer-term real estate developments. Has any of this worked, or is he basically just spending his fortune down?
[+] [-] porker|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sevensor|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jonathanoliver|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrchucklepants|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neurotech1|9 years ago|reply
https://www.ted.com/talks/astro_teller_the_unexpected_benefi...
[+] [-] noobermin|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 0xdeadbeefbabe|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elliotec|9 years ago|reply
I think that mentality has passed through generations and it's really exciting to see this kind of advanced utopian dream come to life, even if it pisses off neighbors and if it ultimately fails.
I'm obsessed with cities and I would love to see this turn into the vision that Joseph smith had in mind, even if all his other visions are laughable loads of whatever.
[+] [-] sandworm101|9 years ago|reply
So many of these grand plans do not appreciate the manpower necessary to harvest crops. If you want to do everything by hand, in tiny batches without the advantages of large mechanized devices, 90+% of the people are going to be engaged primarily in cultivation. That might have been fine 200+ years ago, but not today.
The problem with implementation is not one of planning, but of wants and needs. Does everyone here, or at least 90% of you, want to be a farmer? Growing your own tomatoes on the balcony is fine when you are a 20-somthing kid. Try growing enough for you, your partner, three kids, gran and grandpa, the dog ... suddenly those big greenhouses and giant JohnDeer harvesters are looking a little less evil.
[+] [-] clavalle|9 years ago|reply
There are things that are highly concerning:
'A plat, says Hall, will be subject to state and regional laws, but will also be overseen by a board and heirachries of leaders with, it appears, strong Mormon Family values.'
'Families and individuals who wish to join must invest their net worth...'
'Those who start Vista Bizzes will be given startup funds by thte community but must surrender their IP rights. They also must agree to put nearly all their profits back into the community in exchance for what Hall calls "dividends" -- payouts from overall wealth earned by the plat businesses.'
I don't say this lightly, but how is this not a plan for building a Communist cult with an explicit plan to centralize power of the plats, presumably to Hall himself?
[+] [-] handedness|9 years ago|reply
From the paragraph you quoted:
> But everyone is also free to leave and take their companies with them, if dissatisfied. "Competition and the freedom to walk is crucial," he says.
[+] [-] SilasX|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] googletazer|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] glibgil|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NKCSS|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nickledave|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Numberwang|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sdfgsdfgsdfg|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] petetnt|9 years ago|reply
I think it is just a writing device for tying the story to the real world and building character. Bloomberg does that quite often, "oh it's the type of person who drives a Toyota".
[+] [-] jonah|9 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11987032
[+] [-] AlwaysRock|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] douche|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cookiecaper|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] keeganjw|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jaytaylor|9 years ago|reply
One Vista Biz, called Medic, is developing a water-efficient toilet that also measures blood pressure, weight, and overall health by using sensors and sampling what passes through it. Hall hopes insurance companies will eventually cover the costs of installing such toilets at companies to track worker health.
This seems like a blatant invasion/abuse of privacy. Not to mention requiring people to give up their net worth and surrender all IP to live at the place.
[+] [-] DiabloD3|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Alex3917|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] morgante|9 years ago|reply
The state is very far from being a utopia, and new development does get routinely approved (though it can be controversial). We do tend to oppose giant chains or people trying to push systems onto the state.
[+] [-] aetch|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hubert123|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] porker|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Osiris|9 years ago|reply
Utah became a state only after Mormons agreed to stop practicing polygamy.
For more info, look up Mormon Pioneers.
[+] [-] jessaustin|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sswaner|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] acd|9 years ago|reply
Humans benefit from living among trees. The value of trees can be seen of property prices in New York where central park is highly valued. http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/what-is-a-tree-worth