It has nothing to do with being there on Saturday. It has everything else to do with the kind of people and their ability to invest themselves in their goal, and showing up on Saturday is a great indicator of that.
I interview a lot of programmers, and I can tell you with about 95% precision whether they will work out and be great based on the single question 'tell me about the programming projects you work on for fun'. If they have some project they work on for fun, even one, that isn't for a class at school or for their job, then they are very very likely to be a great hire. If they don't they are very very unlikely to be a good hire. Side projects don't magically make you smart and capable and good at problem solving and getting things done, but it sure seems to be fundamentally related.
And from personal experience, I've worked for 2 startups, one where people worked all weekend and one where they didn't, and interestingly they were doing almost the exact same thing. One had an $80MM exit, the other just slowly went away. Small sample size, for sure.
That's also a key question that I ask, but I don't think a side project is necessarily important as simply finding out how they invest in themselves.
I want to invest in people that invest in themselves.
It may be a side project. It may be challenging themselves with new languages. It may be learning marketing or working on their writing. But they should be hungry. I don't run a large enough company to have to hire people that punch in and punch out [1].
Edit: [1] by punch in punch out - I mean no ongoing personal time invested in their professional skillset. I'm fine investing in people that only want to do 40 hours per week so long as they continue to spend personal time learning something.
I'm not sure I agree entirely with you. As a startup engineer who already had some 14+ hrs work day, and when getting home have a family + kids waiting for me fill in a role as a father. I'm not even sure we have extra time for a side project for fun on the weekends. To me, being a dad is always take higher priorities.
I guess people like us will never be good engineering hire. That's fine. Standing on the shoes of a startup founders, I probably wouldn't wanna hire someone who's not committed either.
I see no exit for this. I'm preparing to be fade out by the younger blood and eventually lose my engineering value.
How do you know? I mean, how do you test for false negatives in the hiring process? Perhaps you're rejecting lots of people without side projects, but they go on to be successful anyway?
Honest questions: all the hard working Yahoo employees who worked many many hours overtime under her instead of being with family and friends, what did they get out of this in the end?
Marissa was paid big $, I understand she needed to work hard for that money but everyone else, what reason did they have 20 hour days?
I wonder what the actual work she did at Google that would make you work up to 130 hours a week, or at the least pull one all nighter a week. Was it heads down programming? I don't think anyone can maintain a great level of code for long at that level. Manager stuff? Maybe. Infrastructure, did she supervise or help set up servers? Startups don't have to do that anymore, at least in the beginning, just spin up servers at AWS. Like the blog author says, a lot of things that needed to be done in house back in the day can be done remotely now.
I kinda get what she is saying. It takes a certain amount of passion and dedication for someone to show up on weekends. They must truly believe in the company or the idea to put in that type of effort.
This dedication and passion will also reflect itself in the product. Many people can make a mediocre product by putting in the minimum amount required, but for something outstanding it usually takes more. Much more. What she has said is nothing outlandish.
She advocates working nearly 20 hours a day and her track record doesn't seem to line up with her mantra. I think that might be causing some issues with some people.
You can probably do a bunch of high-level stuff like she's been doing, but you simply can't program that many hours, do customer service, marketing and more effectively without a sane schedule and no PEDs. Most people will burn out, esp. if they are pre-revenue and/or investors are breathing down their necks.
It's definitely a little arrogant. She says she can predict without knowing what they do. Also, Bill Gross and others with more experience across a wide variety of successful startups believe timing is the most important factor to predict success. [1]
However I do agree that some companies may win due to working excessively if they're in highly competitive spaces and VC funding is required. That extra effort can relate to timing which relates to funding and eventually an exit.
I think too often - these types like Mayer talk about building companies and startups as if VC funding and big exits are the only companies that should exist in our country and that there's only one way to do it.
I agree that they get built based on hard work, but a lot of people are in on weekends and putting in crazy hours because they are overbuilding their product, not talking to users, have no hobbies, etc.
That is just a fantasy, Reza and Marissa live in a fairy tale where working long hours equals passion. It doesn't.
I have had co-workers who practically lived in the office. Every time something urgent came up they would volunteer to work the weekends and late nights. Surprisingly the same guys were also known among the developers as people who got the least amount of work done. And while the management was initially impressed with their hard work and "commitment", every single one of them was let go in the very first rounds of lay offs.
Direction is more important than speed. If you are running in the wrong direction it doesn't matter how fast, or if you come in on the weekend.
If you are headed in the rigt direction then speed and velocity can be important.
It's easy to want to believe that success is repeatable and due to an observable formula...
Wherever company she lands at, run. Not only does she have this attitude at rest, she's going to have a chip on her shoulder to prove she's not a failure at whatever venture she winds up at next.
Her attitude comes from the privileged ideal of hard work = success, which stems from the classic attribution error: "I'm successful therefore it must be because I'm better than everyone else in x y or z ways", and often one of those factors is a belief in one's own hard work pay9ing off. Which blithely ignores all the less fortunate people working even harder at three jobs to pay tthe bills.
The weekend work = success is hardly a new item, there was a reference to it in Microserfs... Written in 1992. The VC/money guy said he'd invest in biotechnology but staff didn't work weekends. And as soon as he finds one that did he could bet the farm and retire.
As for the rest of it, same tired tropes from the author. I already knew what he was gonna say when I realized who it was.
As.for Marissa... She's kinda right. And every current Googler is thankful they can reap the rewards.
She made the extraordinary claim that she didn't even need to know who or what people were working on, just that they were there on weekends. She provided zero data.
It's just as likely that the weekend working startups are the one that will fail. Obviously by burning out, but also by losing sight of the big picture. This seems stereotypical of hackers coding the latest greatest features with zero customers. They could be seriously misusing their available time.
Companies (startups or not) should be able to set their own pace. People should learn to use their time well and save their energy for when they absolutely need to burn the midnight oil. Besides, getting burned out or sick doesn't help anyone.
Slightly off-topic, how did this get picked by Yahoo? Do they get enough editorial freedom to publish something that doesn't favour their CEO? I'm pleasantly surprised for one.
Could this also mean the editorial team believes this to be true?
justin_vanw|9 years ago
I interview a lot of programmers, and I can tell you with about 95% precision whether they will work out and be great based on the single question 'tell me about the programming projects you work on for fun'. If they have some project they work on for fun, even one, that isn't for a class at school or for their job, then they are very very likely to be a great hire. If they don't they are very very unlikely to be a good hire. Side projects don't magically make you smart and capable and good at problem solving and getting things done, but it sure seems to be fundamentally related.
And from personal experience, I've worked for 2 startups, one where people worked all weekend and one where they didn't, and interestingly they were doing almost the exact same thing. One had an $80MM exit, the other just slowly went away. Small sample size, for sure.
exclusiv|9 years ago
I want to invest in people that invest in themselves.
It may be a side project. It may be challenging themselves with new languages. It may be learning marketing or working on their writing. But they should be hungry. I don't run a large enough company to have to hire people that punch in and punch out [1].
Edit: [1] by punch in punch out - I mean no ongoing personal time invested in their professional skillset. I'm fine investing in people that only want to do 40 hours per week so long as they continue to spend personal time learning something.
xbeta|9 years ago
I guess people like us will never be good engineering hire. That's fine. Standing on the shoes of a startup founders, I probably wouldn't wanna hire someone who's not committed either.
I see no exit for this. I'm preparing to be fade out by the younger blood and eventually lose my engineering value.
rahimnathwani|9 years ago
pawadu|9 years ago
Marissa was paid big $, I understand she needed to work hard for that money but everyone else, what reason did they have 20 hour days?
ralphc|9 years ago
rezashirazian|9 years ago
This dedication and passion will also reflect itself in the product. Many people can make a mediocre product by putting in the minimum amount required, but for something outstanding it usually takes more. Much more. What she has said is nothing outlandish.
exclusiv|9 years ago
You can probably do a bunch of high-level stuff like she's been doing, but you simply can't program that many hours, do customer service, marketing and more effectively without a sane schedule and no PEDs. Most people will burn out, esp. if they are pre-revenue and/or investors are breathing down their necks.
It's definitely a little arrogant. She says she can predict without knowing what they do. Also, Bill Gross and others with more experience across a wide variety of successful startups believe timing is the most important factor to predict success. [1]
However I do agree that some companies may win due to working excessively if they're in highly competitive spaces and VC funding is required. That extra effort can relate to timing which relates to funding and eventually an exit.
I think too often - these types like Mayer talk about building companies and startups as if VC funding and big exits are the only companies that should exist in our country and that there's only one way to do it.
I agree that they get built based on hard work, but a lot of people are in on weekends and putting in crazy hours because they are overbuilding their product, not talking to users, have no hobbies, etc.
[1] http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gross_the_single_biggest_reaso...
pawadu|9 years ago
I have had co-workers who practically lived in the office. Every time something urgent came up they would volunteer to work the weekends and late nights. Surprisingly the same guys were also known among the developers as people who got the least amount of work done. And while the management was initially impressed with their hard work and "commitment", every single one of them was let go in the very first rounds of lay offs.
knavely|9 years ago
Direction is more important than speed. If you are running in the wrong direction it doesn't matter how fast, or if you come in on the weekend. If you are headed in the rigt direction then speed and velocity can be important. It's easy to want to believe that success is repeatable and due to an observable formula...
ralphc|9 years ago
triplesec|9 years ago
ryanobjc|9 years ago
As for the rest of it, same tired tropes from the author. I already knew what he was gonna say when I realized who it was.
As.for Marissa... She's kinda right. And every current Googler is thankful they can reap the rewards.
JumpCrisscross|9 years ago
outworlder|9 years ago
She made the extraordinary claim that she didn't even need to know who or what people were working on, just that they were there on weekends. She provided zero data.
It's just as likely that the weekend working startups are the one that will fail. Obviously by burning out, but also by losing sight of the big picture. This seems stereotypical of hackers coding the latest greatest features with zero customers. They could be seriously misusing their available time.
Companies (startups or not) should be able to set their own pace. People should learn to use their time well and save their energy for when they absolutely need to burn the midnight oil. Besides, getting burned out or sick doesn't help anyone.
jagtesh|9 years ago
Could this also mean the editorial team believes this to be true?
NEDM64|9 years ago
cmurf|9 years ago
But that was a 1 cent comment.