This paper gives a good way of looking at it with taxi/passenger. To extend the metaphor, there are lots of people queuing for a taxi, and the driver decides to not pick them up because they don't have enough money to pay for the ride:
Companies are not hiring lots of people because they perform poorly in the interview. From what I can tell, a large fraction, if not the majority of those people actually lack the skills the employer is looking for, despite a 4 year degree in a related field.
This large pool of people who apply for jobs makes hiring more expensive, and also causes companies to apply low-sensitivity, high specificity tests to the pool of applicants (e.g. I'll interview only people who graduated from these 10 schools).
> I'll interview only people who graduated from these 10 schools
Hiring biases create a lot of problems. I can speak to this issue. I interviewed and was turned down by several well-known Silicon Valley tech companies, from big boys to trendy up-and-comers.
I did that because I was undecided about accepting a faculty job in a STEM field at a major university. It has worked out for me because not only am I enjoying being a professor but some months later I joined a non-SV startup who was happy to have me. My startup is on a trajectory to outdo all the trendy SV startups where I "wasn't a fit".
Without even launching into to biases in university hiring/admissions (so many it's shameful), I can say with good confidence that a large part of the problem is the employers.
If I'm not mistaken, non-profits ( virtually all hospitals, colleges, and universities ) are exempt from cap on H1b visas.
It would be interesting to know how many H1b visa holders are employed in STEM positions at institutions that are exempt from the cap. What if it were something scandalous like 800,000 or 1,000,000?
If the numbers were this high, it might have something to do with the fact that there's so much double speak about STEM shortage / STEM surplus in the United States. More American STEM degree holders might be able to find jobs if they weren't forced to compete with foreign nationals.
To my memory, you're not mistaken, but as I recall the numbers are in the very low six figures if that, but it's certainly an big issue for people considering the science route including a Ph.D. and postdoc work before trying to land a permanent job.
In fact, it was the nation's science policy establishment that started this whole mess in the late '80s or so when they apparently decided they were paying too much money for scientific labor in universities and akin non-profit research institutions, as I recall the National Science Foundation got the ball rolling,
(But my focus on that "industry" back then might have caused me to overlook the same in the E and T in STEM, and certainly "consulting" and the safe tax harbor for it were a very big issue at the same time and cost me my job then, see Section 1706 of the Tax Reform Act of 1986, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986#Tax_tre... .)
I also find it odd that we allow people to come to our Universities and then kick them out once we've trained them. That seems like an inconsistent policy.
The school I went to had a decent sized group of students from China, and all but one of them is back there, despite wanting a job in the US.
To be consistent then if we are nationalistic, we should either strive to keep the graduates here, or not allow them in our universities at all. Conversely if we are globalistic, then we should be fine with immigrants working here.
So clearly there are lots of people working outside the cap. The approvals listed there would indicate the maximum possible number, I think you'd have to combine 3 years of reports to get an estimate of the total population.
I like that the top comment on this article is about a hypothetical possibility for a theoretical scandal and not about, say, the actual state of reality.
For IT, a master CS degrees (+5 years after highschool) have still not proven to be better than 2 years of apprenticeship. (Sackman/grant 197x)
The global cost of not working (wasted potential outcome hence taxe) is ~ 10% of the potential cumulated income a nation could have.
Then, STEM is also used as a regulative barrier to some jobs hence a de facto limitation on competition of workforce to access a market, thus diminishing the competition.
Least but not last, the access to the data of employability per diploma is not accessible to future graduated creating an opaque market which access is based on your capacity to either be born rich or to have a crippling loan. It is then creating a market where some workers because of their vulnerability are in poor position for negociating their earnings (thus diminishing the overall potential wages of all workers).
And, least, the non reproducibility of scientific experiments yielded by STEM education is growing up, being a clear signal of a «cheating» that arise when stakes are too high in a competition.
I would say there is neither a STEM crisis or surplus, but bank and university are clearly fueling a «diploma bubble».
I think the first thing to do would be to start differentiate between science and vocational training again.
Otherwise we will be looking at studies how astrophysics degree has little advantage over 2 years of apprenticeship in telescope building.
I have the impression that the real shortage is of people that have REAL skills.
The number of graduates is certainly correlated but somehow we fail in identifying the talents.
I have the impression that the real shortage is because people believe there are "talents", which encourages companies to ignore on-the-job training.
There's of course good economic reasoning for this viewpoint. It forces job candidates to learn skills on their own dime, and companies don't end up training someone who then gets a higher paying job elsewhere.
This in turn is a consequence of the modern view that people only spend a few years at any one job, rather than decades. This encourages employers to see employees as a resource to exploit, rather than to nurture.
Important subject, nearly useless WSJ article. Mentions the obvious stuff, such as the postdoc glut. No mention of training or retraining to ease moves from one narrow specialty to another.
Let me be the guy who noticed that this conclusion:
“The STEM labor market is heterogeneous. There are both shortages and surpluses of STEM workers, depending on the particular job market segment.”
...is something that somebody actually paid to hear/read. Whatever happened to common sense?
I realize this is pulling things out of context, but in what context exactly is this mega-obvious statement contributing anything at all to any discussion?
It's an honest question and not an attempt at trolling.
I make 2 to 3 times a person on H1b makes. I have close to 100 examples. I am good but not three times good.
H1B is the modern day indentured labor with some American niceties to it. In all honesty as an immigrant I will tell you America treats its immigrants best than the rest of the world. So don't be surprised if there is a never ending line of people wanting to come to america.
As for the issue at hand H1B for surely suppresses salary for americans any spin on it is just spin. It does not give americans who want to change their career into IT options. It makes it harder for anyone to change jobs. Newcomers have a lot of competition with people some with real resumes and mostly fake ones. As you reach late 40's it is impossible to find any STEM jobs since no one is willing to hire you. This holds good for naturalized citizens and locals.
Since most companies who hire H1B know that the H1B will not leave them and go for a minimum of 10 years they happily sponsor. This is due to the fact that a green card roughly takes anywhere from 10 to 12 years. Cheap labor is always good for business.
The government does not care since America needs people to keep growing so they are fine with it. Legal immigration is better and taxable than illegal. Our congress is business friendly so they don't care.
This process will continue till the point where in the salaries of STEM jobs will be so low that most of us will prefer flipping burgers. At that point things might balance out since most of the americans will be looking into other fields other than STEM so no one around to complain.
Also ask the question differently when there is a serious shortage of doctors in all parts of US especially the smaller cities and towns why aren't they bringing in more H1B's there. What is stopping that from happening? This is the STEM curse.
Suggestion for all average americans there is still time try and switch to something where u don't have to compete with H1b you already have a 10 year head start. Here is an idea start a business hire H1B's.
[+] [-] aidenn0|9 years ago|reply
Companies are not hiring lots of people because they perform poorly in the interview. From what I can tell, a large fraction, if not the majority of those people actually lack the skills the employer is looking for, despite a 4 year degree in a related field.
This large pool of people who apply for jobs makes hiring more expensive, and also causes companies to apply low-sensitivity, high specificity tests to the pool of applicants (e.g. I'll interview only people who graduated from these 10 schools).
[+] [-] untilHellbanned|9 years ago|reply
Hiring biases create a lot of problems. I can speak to this issue. I interviewed and was turned down by several well-known Silicon Valley tech companies, from big boys to trendy up-and-comers.
I did that because I was undecided about accepting a faculty job in a STEM field at a major university. It has worked out for me because not only am I enjoying being a professor but some months later I joined a non-SV startup who was happy to have me. My startup is on a trajectory to outdo all the trendy SV startups where I "wasn't a fit".
Without even launching into to biases in university hiring/admissions (so many it's shameful), I can say with good confidence that a large part of the problem is the employers.
[+] [-] wodenokoto|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] biocomputation|9 years ago|reply
It would be interesting to know how many H1b visa holders are employed in STEM positions at institutions that are exempt from the cap. What if it were something scandalous like 800,000 or 1,000,000?
If the numbers were this high, it might have something to do with the fact that there's so much double speak about STEM shortage / STEM surplus in the United States. More American STEM degree holders might be able to find jobs if they weren't forced to compete with foreign nationals.
[+] [-] hga|9 years ago|reply
In fact, it was the nation's science policy establishment that started this whole mess in the late '80s or so when they apparently decided they were paying too much money for scientific labor in universities and akin non-profit research institutions, as I recall the National Science Foundation got the ball rolling,
(But my focus on that "industry" back then might have caused me to overlook the same in the E and T in STEM, and certainly "consulting" and the safe tax harbor for it were a very big issue at the same time and cost me my job then, see Section 1706 of the Tax Reform Act of 1986, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986#Tax_tre... .)
[+] [-] aidenn0|9 years ago|reply
The school I went to had a decent sized group of students from China, and all but one of them is back there, despite wanting a job in the US.
To be consistent then if we are nationalistic, we should either strive to keep the graduates here, or not allow them in our universities at all. Conversely if we are globalistic, then we should be fine with immigrants working here.
[+] [-] maxerickson|9 years ago|reply
https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re...
So clearly there are lots of people working outside the cap. The approvals listed there would indicate the maximum possible number, I think you'd have to combine 3 years of reports to get an estimate of the total population.
[+] [-] atemerev|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fennecfoxen|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] leemailll|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jessespears|9 years ago|reply
I found the paper to be more detailed and have a higher signal:noise ratio.
[+] [-] SFJulie|9 years ago|reply
For IT, a master CS degrees (+5 years after highschool) have still not proven to be better than 2 years of apprenticeship. (Sackman/grant 197x)
The global cost of not working (wasted potential outcome hence taxe) is ~ 10% of the potential cumulated income a nation could have.
Then, STEM is also used as a regulative barrier to some jobs hence a de facto limitation on competition of workforce to access a market, thus diminishing the competition.
Least but not last, the access to the data of employability per diploma is not accessible to future graduated creating an opaque market which access is based on your capacity to either be born rich or to have a crippling loan. It is then creating a market where some workers because of their vulnerability are in poor position for negociating their earnings (thus diminishing the overall potential wages of all workers).
And, least, the non reproducibility of scientific experiments yielded by STEM education is growing up, being a clear signal of a «cheating» that arise when stakes are too high in a competition.
I would say there is neither a STEM crisis or surplus, but bank and university are clearly fueling a «diploma bubble».
[+] [-] rimantas|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matteuan|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dalke|9 years ago|reply
There's of course good economic reasoning for this viewpoint. It forces job candidates to learn skills on their own dime, and companies don't end up training someone who then gets a higher paying job elsewhere.
This in turn is a consequence of the modern view that people only spend a few years at any one job, rather than decades. This encourages employers to see employees as a resource to exploit, rather than to nurture.
[+] [-] Animats|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pdimitar|9 years ago|reply
“The STEM labor market is heterogeneous. There are both shortages and surpluses of STEM workers, depending on the particular job market segment.”
...is something that somebody actually paid to hear/read. Whatever happened to common sense?
I realize this is pulling things out of context, but in what context exactly is this mega-obvious statement contributing anything at all to any discussion?
It's an honest question and not an attempt at trolling.
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] lifesucks1|9 years ago|reply
I make 2 to 3 times a person on H1b makes. I have close to 100 examples. I am good but not three times good.
H1B is the modern day indentured labor with some American niceties to it. In all honesty as an immigrant I will tell you America treats its immigrants best than the rest of the world. So don't be surprised if there is a never ending line of people wanting to come to america.
As for the issue at hand H1B for surely suppresses salary for americans any spin on it is just spin. It does not give americans who want to change their career into IT options. It makes it harder for anyone to change jobs. Newcomers have a lot of competition with people some with real resumes and mostly fake ones. As you reach late 40's it is impossible to find any STEM jobs since no one is willing to hire you. This holds good for naturalized citizens and locals.
Since most companies who hire H1B know that the H1B will not leave them and go for a minimum of 10 years they happily sponsor. This is due to the fact that a green card roughly takes anywhere from 10 to 12 years. Cheap labor is always good for business.
The government does not care since America needs people to keep growing so they are fine with it. Legal immigration is better and taxable than illegal. Our congress is business friendly so they don't care.
This process will continue till the point where in the salaries of STEM jobs will be so low that most of us will prefer flipping burgers. At that point things might balance out since most of the americans will be looking into other fields other than STEM so no one around to complain.
Also ask the question differently when there is a serious shortage of doctors in all parts of US especially the smaller cities and towns why aren't they bringing in more H1B's there. What is stopping that from happening? This is the STEM curse.
Suggestion for all average americans there is still time try and switch to something where u don't have to compete with H1b you already have a 10 year head start. Here is an idea start a business hire H1B's.
[+] [-] kevin_thibedeau|9 years ago|reply