We live in a weird world where insane prison overcrowding like conditions and total lack of privacy exists in some dysfunctional workplaces, but its only culturally acceptable to complain about the quiet little keyboards. Sure if my stomach rumbles, we're so tightly packed that I just cost the company $500 by throwing ten developers out of "flow" for an hour and thats OK, but oh god no not a keyboard that clicks.
At home I think my model M is pretty quiet and its certainly not disruptive but my entire family is not required so spend ten hours per day within an arms reach of me as though we're on a small rowboat together. Also textile floors and textile drapes and my office has acoustic foam ceiling tiles makes an extremely quiet environment whereas a hipster office of steel glass and concrete might reflect and echo all sounds.
I am using a model M right now. I bought three at a computer fair for $3 each about 20 years ago to save space on my desk.
The advantage, other than the tactile and sonic feedback, is that my wife can tell when I am working.
> whereas a hipster office of steel glass and concrete might reflect and echo all sounds.
Yep. I had my second Model M shipped to the office and kept it there for a few days, but thanks to it being feng shui certified (wtf?) it was an open floor office, with the company meeting room only separated by a thin glass wall.
Sudden 140wpm bursts on a Model M under that conditions surprised quite a few visitors, even with the door closed, and was compared to "machine gun fire" when I was asked to finally take it home.
I don't think I've ever heard a Model M to compare but if I my uses the DasKey (blue switches I think) while I'm working it can get to me after a bit. Oh I did use a Model M in elementary school a couple times.
Where do you work that ten developer hours is only valued at $500?
I also totally understand the feeling that we're overcrowded, and that may be true in a lot of cases. However, products do take developers, and to be responsible citizens we can't use a too much space. So it's kind of a necessary evil.
One way this can be assuaged is with a stronger commitment to remote work or flexible hours.
I have a Model M at home, and while I find that the sound helps me keep my rhythm while typing, it can be really annoying in an office environment.
At my last job, being unhappy with the keyboard I had, I brought the Model M to work one day (it was just gathering dust at home). While typing was much more pleasant, I quickly discovered I had to stop typing whenever my coworker's phone rang. This, in turn, quickly became annoying for me, so at the end of the day, I packed it up and took it back home.
The Model M is one of the best keyboards I ever had the pleasure of using, but I would not like to inflict that level of noise to coworkers at the office.
(The best keyboard I ever used, interestingly, was a Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 made by Microsoft. I am not a big fan of Microsoft, but they really know how to build a great keyboard. Unfortunately, this was the only keyboard I ever managed to spill tea on... and on its identical replacement. I took that as a hint that some higher power might not want me to use Microsoft keyboards.)
It's funny you mention that Microsoft keyboard. I was reading your story about the Model M and thinking "Yeah I'd love to switch to a mech keyboard again but I love my Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 by Microsoft too much." It has pretty much saved my shoulders because, instead of having to put them together to type on a normal keyboard, I have space to angle them out. It's great!
I had many mechanical keyboards. Blue, brown and red cherry switches, topre, you name it. I got rid of most of them and I regret having spent the dollar on such a meme piece of equipment.
Elitism and fetichism aside, the sound and key travel is just a matter of preference and at the end of the day they won't make you type faster or help with RSI (the ones with high required actuation force can actually worsen it).
I wouldn't trade my current Microsoft Sculpt for any of my previous keyboards. Both my colleagues and my wrists are glad I switched.
My recommendation is that if you are going to pay a premium for a keyboard, at least focus on ergonomic features rather than gimmicks.
> at least focus on ergonomic features rather than gimmicks
FWIW, mechanical switches have helped with my own finger/wrist pain significantly, for one major reason: I don't have to bottom out the keys to make them register. The lack of a sudden stop reduces the stress put on my fingers by a significant amount over 8 hours. I can't make it through 8 hours typing on a mac chicklet keyboard, but I can with any of my mechanical keyboards (red, brown, topre, etc).
The durability of a mechanical keyboard also helps make up their up-front cost - where a rubber dome keyboard tends to only last me 6-8 months, I've yet to replace a mechanical keyboard due to key failure.
I also wouldn't underestimate the value of "personal preference" for something you use for well over 40 hours a week.
An UltraErgo Wireless Split Keyboard, and set it on the arm rests of a nice chair, something like the chair of the captain in the Original Star Trek Enterprise.
>I wouldn't trade my current Microsoft Sculpt for any of my previous keyboards.
That is a fantastic keyboard. I was starting to have wrist pains and got the Sculpt. The pain went away within days.
I would like it to have the angle between the two sides be a bit larger, so that my wrists would be completely straight. On the other hand I'm sure Microsoft have a good reason for it being at the angle it's at.
Thanks for the recommendation. I love my Topre keyboard (the typing ergonomics are better than with the cheap keyboards I had before), but then again I have never before even heard of Sculpt. I'll try to keep this one in mind.
Shout-out to Unicomp[0], who make new USB Model M's from the original specs. I love mine and my wife hates it because it's too loud and clakkety. Their website is horrid and the fit-and-finish on the product leaves a bit to be desired, but the switches are great.
Yep they make pretty decent clones. I have special edition they did on Massdrop but sadly the 70g keys are causing major pain and I have to use my other keyboard with Topre switches for doing work :(
I have trouble with warm restarts losing the USB controller on which that keyboard is connected. No other keyboard causes this problem, and it is definitely the entire controller. Scary to imagine what they could be doing in that driver.
Not only are their keyboards great, their support is superlative too. I'd have bought more, only the unit I bought six years ago is still going strong :)
That cracks me up. Back in the 80s, I wrote a little TSR for a guy who missed the Atari 800 keyboard click tone on his new clone PC. I had wired a switch in line with the speaker in my Atari so that I could turn off the tone and not wake my roommate.
The Atari 800 also had some fun event sounds it made whenever it read or wrote a floppy disk sector or had an I/O error. People got used to those audible feedbacks, just like the physical drive crunching noises and other "side-channel" outputs.
I worked with someone who had a Model M. I thought he was a super fast typer, until I realized the keys make a sound on the way down and the way up, making his perceived words per minute (PWPM) twice is actual WPM.
Cherry MX brown keyswitches are they usual recommendation for tactility + quietness, but the tactility is pretty subtle, no comparison to a Model M. I've heard several recommendations for Matias Quiet Click keyswitches [0] as having much more satisfying clickiness while being very quiet, but sadly haven't yet been able to try them yet.
Strictly those aren't exactly "keyboard" recommendations, but as well as selling keyboards Matias also sell the switches separately, so you can get a keyboard base to your preferences and solder keyswitches of your choice to it yourself, typically on a group-buy site like Massdrop. Eg I'm currently waiting for the Ergodox infinity drop[1] (split, non-staggered, open-source hardware and firmware, reprogrammable), but there are a bunch of more conventional keyboards available with a choice of keyswitches as well.
To run down the switches (that provide physical feedback).
-MX Cherry Blues: Their action has the same feel of a Model M (kind of) they only require ~1/2 the force to switch as a Model M. Their sound is also quieter (then a model M) they're still much louder then a rubber dome. It has a higher pitch clip/clop rather then the Model M's thunk.
-MX Cherry Greens: A stiffer blue (commonly used for space bars).
-MX Cherry Browns: Same action as a blue, but rubber dampened to be quieter actually inline with a rubber dome. They still provide the physical feedback of a Blue.
-MX Cherry Clear: A stiffer brown.
-MX Cherry Whites: Somewhere between a Brown and a Blue in sound and force. They still provide feedback.
I really enjoy the original Apple Extended Keyboard II. I'll be honest that I haven't used an actual Model M, but it's got a wonderful feel and not so horribly loud that you'll disrupt the world.
That doesn't seem possible. A good part of the MM's ergonomics are the force feedback, and the physical click as the spring buckles. You really can't get anything like that without a click of some kind.
I've seen those quiet Cherry MX switches: they just go all the way down, no force feedback at all. Honestly, I'd say they're worse than dome keyboards.
There are a lot of mechanical keyboards out there with a similar heft as the Model M. The trick is the switches. I like the Cherry red switches, which are quiet. Cherry blue switches are clicky like the old model M.
Topre key switches aren't bad. They're more expensive than they're likely really worth, but they feel like a cross between a cherry-mx-brown switch and a rubber dome switch. Good feedback, easy on the fingers, and no sound from the switch (it's capacitive, not mechanical).
That said, nothing (silent) quite replicates the action of a buckling spring. MX Blues come close (since they have a piece that "gives" under pressure), but they are not precisely silent (since they have a piece that "gives" under pressure).
Unicomp does make keyboards in the same form factor as their model M clones, but with rubber domes instead of buckling springs, though they're considered silly. The brandname is 'QuietTouch' or something.
Another serious question. I used to love my Model M but switched to a cheap Fujitsu split keyboard. Anyone have a view on which is the best Model M-alike with a split format?
I have my own office so I don't care how loud it is.
Seeing how it's cross-compiled into Windows, I reckon the reason it's not made for macOS yet is that there is no way to cross-compile into that OS yet. We have similar difficulties in building Octave for macOS.
This is really frustrating. Because Windows is so foreign, free hackers worked hard to make it palatable and created mingw32, which allows wonderful things such as being able to build for Windows without having Windows. Because macOS is "Unix" and, look! it has a few scraps of "open source" in it, nobody ever felt the need to reimplement its API for free hackers and thus allow cross-compiling.
And no, homebrew is not the answer. People seem unaware that there's much more to Unix than a passing familiarity in the CLI. The different audio and graphics and lack of X, and many other differences in macOS make it a very foreign OS for free development. Porting Octave to macOS has been a tremendous effort of many years that has never really yielded completely satisfactory results.
A lot of the new clicky keyboards are sold at incredibly high premiums, usually as gaming keyboards, or as specialty items - see Das, HH, etc.
These are ripoffs. You can get a Model M from Unicomp for between $80 and $100, which is significantly cheaper, and feels way better than most of the MX keys.
I don't need an emulator :) I still think my buckling spring Unicomp (basically a Model M) is the best keyboard I've ever used since the IBM unit that came with my original PC:
I thought of trying this to use the ridiculous CSI/hacker beep sound at each keypress. Replaced the .wav files with a short beep sound I had once downloaded and works fine (couldn't stand it after a minute). If anyone mad enough to try it, the .zip containing the properly named .wav files is here[1].
Edit: Sorry I'm new to sharing .zip files - uploaded to another site - link updated.
I used to work for a company that had a box full of Model M keyboards that people didn't want to use. I knicked one when I left, and unfortunately It's since died.
If you work for a company that bought any IBM servers in the last 20 years, there is a chance you'll find something similar (probably not actual model M's, but still damn good keyboards!) in the server room spares boxes.
Speak to your friendly SysAdmin and see if you can strike a deal :-)
I still have my old Model M. Unfortunately, I was banned from using it in the house (by the girlfriend), but it is now connected to a FreeBSD box (which still has PS/2 connectors) in the garage.
One does not realize how truly annoying the sound is until one sits in a room and has to listen to someone typing on it with reckless abandon. That's how she convinced me to stop using it.
I had the same problem too. I'm using Windows 10 with the anniversary update.
(I'm not sure its use of a global hook stored in an EXE is safe anyway. I think you have to have these things in DLLs, because the hook runs in each process's context, so each process needs its own copy of the code. Obviously it must work for at least some people though... I wonder how? Will have to try building it when I get a moment.)
[+] [-] VLM|9 years ago|reply
At home I think my model M is pretty quiet and its certainly not disruptive but my entire family is not required so spend ten hours per day within an arms reach of me as though we're on a small rowboat together. Also textile floors and textile drapes and my office has acoustic foam ceiling tiles makes an extremely quiet environment whereas a hipster office of steel glass and concrete might reflect and echo all sounds.
[+] [-] kpgraham|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] creshal|9 years ago|reply
Yep. I had my second Model M shipped to the office and kept it there for a few days, but thanks to it being feng shui certified (wtf?) it was an open floor office, with the company meeting room only separated by a thin glass wall.
Sudden 140wpm bursts on a Model M under that conditions surprised quite a few visitors, even with the door closed, and was compared to "machine gun fire" when I was asked to finally take it home.
[+] [-] johnward|9 years ago|reply
edit: they include the sound of the switches here. I don't hear a difference between blue and brown though http://www.daskeyboard.com/switches/
[+] [-] malnourish|9 years ago|reply
I also totally understand the feeling that we're overcrowded, and that may be true in a lot of cases. However, products do take developers, and to be responsible citizens we can't use a too much space. So it's kind of a necessary evil.
One way this can be assuaged is with a stronger commitment to remote work or flexible hours.
[+] [-] krylon|9 years ago|reply
At my last job, being unhappy with the keyboard I had, I brought the Model M to work one day (it was just gathering dust at home). While typing was much more pleasant, I quickly discovered I had to stop typing whenever my coworker's phone rang. This, in turn, quickly became annoying for me, so at the end of the day, I packed it up and took it back home.
The Model M is one of the best keyboards I ever had the pleasure of using, but I would not like to inflict that level of noise to coworkers at the office.
(The best keyboard I ever used, interestingly, was a Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 made by Microsoft. I am not a big fan of Microsoft, but they really know how to build a great keyboard. Unfortunately, this was the only keyboard I ever managed to spill tea on... and on its identical replacement. I took that as a hint that some higher power might not want me to use Microsoft keyboards.)
[+] [-] douche|9 years ago|reply
If you have a real office, anything short of blasting Slayer won't disturb anyone else.
[+] [-] infodroid|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zodPod|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] amelius|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jypepin|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TurboHaskal|9 years ago|reply
Elitism and fetichism aside, the sound and key travel is just a matter of preference and at the end of the day they won't make you type faster or help with RSI (the ones with high required actuation force can actually worsen it).
I wouldn't trade my current Microsoft Sculpt for any of my previous keyboards. Both my colleagues and my wrists are glad I switched.
My recommendation is that if you are going to pay a premium for a keyboard, at least focus on ergonomic features rather than gimmicks.
[+] [-] falcolas|9 years ago|reply
FWIW, mechanical switches have helped with my own finger/wrist pain significantly, for one major reason: I don't have to bottom out the keys to make them register. The lack of a sudden stop reduces the stress put on my fingers by a significant amount over 8 hours. I can't make it through 8 hours typing on a mac chicklet keyboard, but I can with any of my mechanical keyboards (red, brown, topre, etc).
The durability of a mechanical keyboard also helps make up their up-front cost - where a rubber dome keyboard tends to only last me 6-8 months, I've yet to replace a mechanical keyboard due to key failure.
I also wouldn't underestimate the value of "personal preference" for something you use for well over 40 hours a week.
[+] [-] Shorel|9 years ago|reply
I have used the previous Microsoft ergonomic keyboard, and I think that a real ergonomic should be totally split, not just angled.
The perfect keyboard would be something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u896xlgMpH4
An UltraErgo Wireless Split Keyboard, and set it on the arm rests of a nice chair, something like the chair of the captain in the Original Star Trek Enterprise.
http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/star_tr...
[+] [-] mrweasel|9 years ago|reply
That is a fantastic keyboard. I was starting to have wrist pains and got the Sculpt. The pain went away within days.
I would like it to have the angle between the two sides be a bit larger, so that my wrists would be completely straight. On the other hand I'm sure Microsoft have a good reason for it being at the angle it's at.
It's a very pleasant keyboard.
[+] [-] distances|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] na85|9 years ago|reply
[0] http://www.pckeyboard.com/
[+] [-] hydandata|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moron4hire|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] duncan_bayne|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fluffysquirrel|9 years ago|reply
The Atari 800 also had some fun event sounds it made whenever it read or wrote a floppy disk sector or had an I/O error. People got used to those audible feedbacks, just like the physical drive crunching noises and other "side-channel" outputs.
[+] [-] euroclydon|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Nursie|9 years ago|reply
Does anyone know of another keyboard that's as comfortable and all-round wonderful to use as the Model M, but quiet?
[+] [-] SEMW|9 years ago|reply
Strictly those aren't exactly "keyboard" recommendations, but as well as selling keyboards Matias also sell the switches separately, so you can get a keyboard base to your preferences and solder keyswitches of your choice to it yourself, typically on a group-buy site like Massdrop. Eg I'm currently waiting for the Ergodox infinity drop[1] (split, non-staggered, open-source hardware and firmware, reprogrammable), but there are a bunch of more conventional keyboards available with a choice of keyswitches as well.
[0] http://matias.ca/switches/quiet/
[1] https://www.massdrop.com/buy/infinity-ergodox
[+] [-] valarauca1|9 years ago|reply
-MX Cherry Blues: Their action has the same feel of a Model M (kind of) they only require ~1/2 the force to switch as a Model M. Their sound is also quieter (then a model M) they're still much louder then a rubber dome. It has a higher pitch clip/clop rather then the Model M's thunk.
-MX Cherry Greens: A stiffer blue (commonly used for space bars).
-MX Cherry Browns: Same action as a blue, but rubber dampened to be quieter actually inline with a rubber dome. They still provide the physical feedback of a Blue.
-MX Cherry Clear: A stiffer brown.
-MX Cherry Whites: Somewhere between a Brown and a Blue in sound and force. They still provide feedback.
[+] [-] fredleblanc|9 years ago|reply
Unfortunately I've found that I hit the key rollover limit while typing certain words. For the past year I've been using one of these: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=keyed_up_labs,te... — and while not perfect, I really do enjoy it.
[+] [-] qwertyuiop924|9 years ago|reply
I've seen those quiet Cherry MX switches: they just go all the way down, no force feedback at all. Honestly, I'd say they're worse than dome keyboards.
[+] [-] snarfy|9 years ago|reply
Comparison between the switches:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp46JeDDTCw
[+] [-] falcolas|9 years ago|reply
That said, nothing (silent) quite replicates the action of a buckling spring. MX Blues come close (since they have a piece that "gives" under pressure), but they are not precisely silent (since they have a piece that "gives" under pressure).
[+] [-] AimHere|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scholia|9 years ago|reply
I have my own office so I don't care how loud it is.
[+] [-] jordigh|9 years ago|reply
http://www.daskeyboard.com/
It's lovely and noisy. The clicks augment the joy.
[+] [-] Nursie|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oneeyedpigeon|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jordigh|9 years ago|reply
This is really frustrating. Because Windows is so foreign, free hackers worked hard to make it palatable and created mingw32, which allows wonderful things such as being able to build for Windows without having Windows. Because macOS is "Unix" and, look! it has a few scraps of "open source" in it, nobody ever felt the need to reimplement its API for free hackers and thus allow cross-compiling.
And no, homebrew is not the answer. People seem unaware that there's much more to Unix than a passing familiarity in the CLI. The different audio and graphics and lack of X, and many other differences in macOS make it a very foreign OS for free development. Porting Octave to macOS has been a tremendous effort of many years that has never really yielded completely satisfactory results.
[+] [-] chestervonwinch|9 years ago|reply
https://youtu.be/ujd6l_9TUmU
[+] [-] qwertyuiop924|9 years ago|reply
These are ripoffs. You can get a Model M from Unicomp for between $80 and $100, which is significantly cheaper, and feels way better than most of the MX keys.
[+] [-] ourmandave|9 years ago|reply
High hat backspace!
[+] [-] rbanffy|9 years ago|reply
https://github.com/rbanffy/selectric-mode
[+] [-] mcguire|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] foxyv|9 years ago|reply
----------------------
Let's see here. Let's make our workplace into more of a "Startup."
Modern office environment with no privacy. Check!
Loud noisy stuff and people in cramped conditions. Check!
"Agile" methodologies to heap requirements on Devs the night before they deploy. DOUBLE Check!
After hours work required? Oh you betcha!
Telecommuting as often as you like? Oh hecks naw we don't trust you shifty eyed developers.
Ability to work on side projects for short time. NOPE! Only approved projects thank you.
Good equipment that isn't bogged down my corporate spyware. Now you're kidding me!
Listen to input on prioritizing projects. What do developers know about project planning bah!
[+] [-] duncan_bayne|9 years ago|reply
https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncanbayne/12295182336
[+] [-] creshal|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noisy_boy|9 years ago|reply
Edit: Sorry I'm new to sharing .zip files - uploaded to another site - link updated.
[1]: https://filetea.me/t1sNqOwXEOAR2xkCjNF9hbptQ
[+] [-] Intermernet|9 years ago|reply
If you work for a company that bought any IBM servers in the last 20 years, there is a chance you'll find something similar (probably not actual model M's, but still damn good keyboards!) in the server room spares boxes.
Speak to your friendly SysAdmin and see if you can strike a deal :-)
[+] [-] qwertyuiop924|9 years ago|reply
Are they programmers? If they are, check for face masks or holoprojectors: they may be dangerous aliens.
Or maybe they're just really strange.
[+] [-] yitchelle|9 years ago|reply
http://www.usbtypewriter.com
[+] [-] jlgaddis|9 years ago|reply
One does not realize how truly annoying the sound is until one sits in a room and has to listen to someone typing on it with reckless abandon. That's how she convinced me to stop using it.
[+] [-] piyush_soni|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] to3m|9 years ago|reply
(I'm not sure its use of a global hook stored in an EXE is safe anyway. I think you have to have these things in DLLs, because the hook runs in each process's context, so each process needs its own copy of the code. Obviously it must work for at least some people though... I wonder how? Will have to try building it when I get a moment.)