> Modern Zen teachers in Japan spring from the lineage of a famous master who was the successor of Gudo. His name was Mu-nan, the man who never returned back.
What happened to his family? It's great that he achieved enlightenment and all, if that's what actually happened, but it's very curious that an epiphany centered around his failure to uphold his responsibilities to his loved ones resulted in his abandoning said loved ones for the remainder of his life.
I hesitate to say this makes a good example of the essential self-absorption I've observed in a lot of Zen philosophy, but this makes a good example of the essential self-absorption I've observed in a lot of Zen philosophy. What good are you, what worth have you, if you spend all your energy making yourself precious and ignore the world as it crumbles to dust around you?
> it's very curious that an epiphany centered around his failure to uphold his responsibilities to his loved ones resulted in his abandoning said loved ones for the remainder of his life.
In the story, at least as I read it, Mu-nan was already headed for ruin. Gudo, the teacher, warned him: "If you keep on gambling and drinking you will have no time left to accomplish anything else, and you will cause your family to suffer too."
In a sense, Mu-nan was as good as dead already. If Gudo hadn't shown up, Mu-nan would have just kept on drinking and failing his family anyway. So from that point of view, I think he may have left his family better off by departing forever. He saw that following his teacher was the only path left for him, so that's what he did. If he had stayed with his family, his karma would have just taken him back into the place he had been before.
Most of the great Buddhist stories I've read fit this archetype: the hero has reached a point of no return, they've done terrible things, or they're stuck in a situation where there's no way out. At that point all they can do is find a teacher and follow their instructions. That usually means leaving everything and everyone behind, for better or for worse.
> What good are you, what worth have you, if you spend all your energy making yourself precious and ignore the world as it crumbles to dust around you?
I think this is a common misunderstanding of Eastern philosophy. I used to feel the same way too - it would make me angry because it seemed so passive, like just giving up.
But there's actually a lot of wisdom to the approach. If you haven't worked it out for yourself first, how can you ever be of service to anyone else?
Whether it's part of Zen philosophy, I don't know, but it's been found in a number of studies that meditation makes you kinder towards others, and increases compassion and empathy, and decreases biases, so I don't agree with your insinuation that the purpose is to "make yourself precious and ignore the world."
I, too, used to think meditation and zen philosophy were particularly solipsistic, and only about improving oneself, and then I read enough studies to convince myself that "improving oneself" is actually a laudable goal that involves becoming a better person for the rest of the world.
In one classic study, participants randomly assigned to learn meditation vs unrelated cognitive skills were significantly more likely to offer their seat when a disabled person walked into the lab weeks later. Other studies have shown similar effects.
>What happened to his family? It's great that he achieved enlightenment and all, if that's what actually happened, but it's very curious that an epiphany centered around his failure to uphold his responsibilities to his loved ones resulted in his abandoning said loved ones for the remainder of his life.
The Buddha himself, who was a prince from the Shakya clan, has been criticized for leaving his wife and family behind to begin the life of an ascetic.
However I wonder if we would be criticizing him as much if he had left for war, since his clan was a warrior clan.
Who criticizes any great general or conqueror in history for leaving his family behind, and why not?
"What good are you, what worth have you, if you spend all your energy making yourself precious and ignore the world as it crumbles to dust around you?"
you can try to hold the world upright, but it's still crumbling. your self is a part of the world you exercise some control over. anyway, the point isn't to make yourself precious, that would really be self-absorption. i consider this account of shunryu suzuki to be more the aim:
"I went to see him after he'd been in the hospital a couple of days. When I got to his room the doctor and a couple of specialists had just left and he motioned me in and asked me to sit down on the bed next to him. He said, 'I have cancer.' He just mouthed the words as if he was telling me some good thing in a whisper. His lunch had just been brought in ‑‑ it was on a table by his bed. He patted the seat next to him and said, 'Now we can eat off the same plate,' and he began to feed me some of his lunch. He'd have a bite, then I'd have a bite ‑‑ which of course is what we couldn't do as long as we thought he had hepatitis. And he said, 'This cancer is my friend, and my practice will be to take care of this sickness.'"
as others have pointed out, you are making an implicit assumption that it is the man's duty to "correct himself" and then return to being a husband and father.
this is not what zen is about. the man was incapable of being a good husband and father before he met Gudo. he could not accept that life-style and so he turned to drink and gambling to avoid it.
after he met Gudo he became aware of his failings and his destructive behavior. he changed his ways. he did not fulfill what you perceive his duty to be.
does that mean he did the wrong thing? did his family suffer more with him present (and drunk and broke) or absent? if he had returned to his family would he have been able to remain sober and dutiful? can any of us claim to know the likely outcomes of what didn't happen to another person?
I used to wonder how this worked too, because it is an apparently selfish activity.
The way I understand it now is: people are good when their minds asses that they have what they need. Importantly, it's necessary to take a broad view of 'what one needs' here: resources in this sense range from tangible things like food and rest, to self determined personal inadequacies (that drive people to attempt making others feel inferior etc.).
When peoples' minds determine resources are lacking, people are in a very different mental mode; their strategies are biased to take from others (whether the resource is tangible or not).
So, the idea is that feeling you have everything you need is a prerequisite for true goodwill toward others; and, 'feeling you have everything you need' or rather believing, 'nothing needs changing,' is a common characterization of the sought after mental state in meditation.
I've observed the difference in character of thoughts that emerge in myself personally when I'm relaxed and content versus the opposite, and I'd bet there's something to this Buddhist idea.
Perhaps what isn't said is that Mu-nan understood he was no good to his family and decided it would be best for him to leave. I wouldn't conclude that the actions are self-absorbed... only that that is a perspective, but ultimately not the only one.
A lot of times, religious literature is about the ascetics, just like how TechCrunch tends to be about a very small portion of the tech community with rather extreme situations. TechCrunch isn't so much a charge to actually live the same life as, say, Jeff Bezos, but rather (if we typecast as a religious text) to extract and learn from it.
You are trying to make a generalization. It won't work.
Mu-nan's wife became a successful sandal merchant. Or maybe she opened and inn, or got remarried to someone more reliable. Or maybe they starved to death when he didn't return.
"spend all your energy making yourself precious and ignore the world as it crumbles to dust around you" is not Zen.
Hmm... while I don't know, it'd be interesting to write something that would automatically fix those things - which I find interesting because I would think that a good OCR service should use some model of word frequency or sentence structure to aid symbol resolving.
The Christian then reads the Beatitudes, and Gasan exclaims "whoever spoke those words is radiant with divinity!". The overjoyed man rushes to the church, faces the altar, and cries out "Jesus! I got that Buddhist to confess that you were divine!". And from the heavens a loving voice replies "And other than inflating your ego, what good did it do?"
Nope, these are not koans. I recommend D.T. Suzuki essays on zen buddhism, namely second series for a proper explanation of the koan exercise.
Apparently the author of the blog only focused on japanese zen stories, which is unfortunate, as the stories of chinese zen masters — where zen as a school of buddhism was founded — are as truthful, if not more original, than the japanese stories the author selected.
After reading "Is that so?" I wonder whether the story still applies with the internet of today, where (for the average person) a smeared reputation remains online even after corrections are made.
[+] [-] throwanem|9 years ago|reply
> Modern Zen teachers in Japan spring from the lineage of a famous master who was the successor of Gudo. His name was Mu-nan, the man who never returned back.
What happened to his family? It's great that he achieved enlightenment and all, if that's what actually happened, but it's very curious that an epiphany centered around his failure to uphold his responsibilities to his loved ones resulted in his abandoning said loved ones for the remainder of his life.
I hesitate to say this makes a good example of the essential self-absorption I've observed in a lot of Zen philosophy, but this makes a good example of the essential self-absorption I've observed in a lot of Zen philosophy. What good are you, what worth have you, if you spend all your energy making yourself precious and ignore the world as it crumbles to dust around you?
[+] [-] paloaltokid|9 years ago|reply
In the story, at least as I read it, Mu-nan was already headed for ruin. Gudo, the teacher, warned him: "If you keep on gambling and drinking you will have no time left to accomplish anything else, and you will cause your family to suffer too."
In a sense, Mu-nan was as good as dead already. If Gudo hadn't shown up, Mu-nan would have just kept on drinking and failing his family anyway. So from that point of view, I think he may have left his family better off by departing forever. He saw that following his teacher was the only path left for him, so that's what he did. If he had stayed with his family, his karma would have just taken him back into the place he had been before.
Most of the great Buddhist stories I've read fit this archetype: the hero has reached a point of no return, they've done terrible things, or they're stuck in a situation where there's no way out. At that point all they can do is find a teacher and follow their instructions. That usually means leaving everything and everyone behind, for better or for worse.
> What good are you, what worth have you, if you spend all your energy making yourself precious and ignore the world as it crumbles to dust around you?
I think this is a common misunderstanding of Eastern philosophy. I used to feel the same way too - it would make me angry because it seemed so passive, like just giving up.
But there's actually a lot of wisdom to the approach. If you haven't worked it out for yourself first, how can you ever be of service to anyone else?
[+] [-] SamBam|9 years ago|reply
I, too, used to think meditation and zen philosophy were particularly solipsistic, and only about improving oneself, and then I read enough studies to convince myself that "improving oneself" is actually a laudable goal that involves becoming a better person for the rest of the world.
In one classic study, participants randomly assigned to learn meditation vs unrelated cognitive skills were significantly more likely to offer their seat when a disabled person walked into the lab weeks later. Other studies have shown similar effects.
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/07/mindfulnes... (Opinion)
https://static.squarespace.com/static/52853b8ae4b0a6c35d3f8e... [Psychological Science]
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/52853b8ae4b0a6c35d3f8... [PLOS one]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3156028/
http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/09/28/scan...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23957283
[+] [-] gerbilly|9 years ago|reply
The Buddha himself, who was a prince from the Shakya clan, has been criticized for leaving his wife and family behind to begin the life of an ascetic.
However I wonder if we would be criticizing him as much if he had left for war, since his clan was a warrior clan.
Who criticizes any great general or conqueror in history for leaving his family behind, and why not?
[+] [-] pasquinelli|9 years ago|reply
you can try to hold the world upright, but it's still crumbling. your self is a part of the world you exercise some control over. anyway, the point isn't to make yourself precious, that would really be self-absorption. i consider this account of shunryu suzuki to be more the aim:
"I went to see him after he'd been in the hospital a couple of days. When I got to his room the doctor and a couple of specialists had just left and he motioned me in and asked me to sit down on the bed next to him. He said, 'I have cancer.' He just mouthed the words as if he was telling me some good thing in a whisper. His lunch had just been brought in ‑‑ it was on a table by his bed. He patted the seat next to him and said, 'Now we can eat off the same plate,' and he began to feed me some of his lunch. He'd have a bite, then I'd have a bite ‑‑ which of course is what we couldn't do as long as we thought he had hepatitis. And he said, 'This cancer is my friend, and my practice will be to take care of this sickness.'"
[+] [-] eludwig|9 years ago|reply
Does either obsession make him a good husband or father?
Perhaps he will return one day, fully present.
[+] [-] metaphorm|9 years ago|reply
this is not what zen is about. the man was incapable of being a good husband and father before he met Gudo. he could not accept that life-style and so he turned to drink and gambling to avoid it.
after he met Gudo he became aware of his failings and his destructive behavior. he changed his ways. he did not fulfill what you perceive his duty to be.
does that mean he did the wrong thing? did his family suffer more with him present (and drunk and broke) or absent? if he had returned to his family would he have been able to remain sober and dutiful? can any of us claim to know the likely outcomes of what didn't happen to another person?
[+] [-] westoncb|9 years ago|reply
The way I understand it now is: people are good when their minds asses that they have what they need. Importantly, it's necessary to take a broad view of 'what one needs' here: resources in this sense range from tangible things like food and rest, to self determined personal inadequacies (that drive people to attempt making others feel inferior etc.).
When peoples' minds determine resources are lacking, people are in a very different mental mode; their strategies are biased to take from others (whether the resource is tangible or not).
So, the idea is that feeling you have everything you need is a prerequisite for true goodwill toward others; and, 'feeling you have everything you need' or rather believing, 'nothing needs changing,' is a common characterization of the sought after mental state in meditation.
I've observed the difference in character of thoughts that emerge in myself personally when I'm relaxed and content versus the opposite, and I'd bet there's something to this Buddhist idea.
[+] [-] hellameta|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eob|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] carapace|9 years ago|reply
Mu-nan's wife became a successful sandal merchant. Or maybe she opened and inn, or got remarried to someone more reliable. Or maybe they starved to death when he didn't return.
"spend all your energy making yourself precious and ignore the world as it crumbles to dust around you" is not Zen.
[+] [-] ComodoHacker|9 years ago|reply
Another feeling I had after reading this story: when you pass some stage in your life, leave it behind completely, don't stick to your past.
[+] [-] dominotw|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] gbuk2013|9 years ago|reply
Is it better to be trapped in a miserable existence, drowning your sorrows in gambling and alcohol, or take the one chance to reach the ultimate?
[+] [-] SamBam|9 years ago|reply
* "1" for "l" (http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/009/)
* Unmatched quotation marks or differing symbols (‘ vs ') (http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/002/)
* Several times I've seen "yon" for "you" (http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/004/)
* "l" for "r" (loom/room) (http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/099/)
If so, what's the original source for these stories? I don't see credits anywhere, though I am probably just missing them.
[+] [-] fenomas|9 years ago|reply
[0] https://archive.org/stream/ZenFleshZenBones/zen_djvu.txt
[+] [-] swsieber|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fitzroy|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fishmonekypizza|9 years ago|reply
http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html
That ashida kim zen koan site has been on the interwebs for a long time. The story order is the same, and the names look the same too.
[+] [-] dudleyf|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zem|9 years ago|reply
The Christian then reads the Beatitudes, and Gasan exclaims "whoever spoke those words is radiant with divinity!". The overjoyed man rushes to the church, faces the altar, and cries out "Jesus! I got that Buddhist to confess that you were divine!". And from the heavens a loving voice replies "And other than inflating your ego, what good did it do?"
[+] [-] miesman|9 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Flesh,_Zen_Bones (which includes 101 zen stories) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Mind,_Beginner%27s_Mind
[+] [-] gf263|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rainhacker|9 years ago|reply
> ‘I will help him,’ said Gudo.
Zen master's actions had the opposite effect. The drunk man's wife was precisely worried about her husband going one day and never coming back.
> Sometimes when becomes thoroughly drunk he does not come home at all. What can I do?
After Gudo's lesson, he left his family forever.
[+] [-] gbuk2013|9 years ago|reply
No, the Zen master's actions had the intended effect. He said "I will help him" and he did exactly that.
[+] [-] JoeDaDude|9 years ago|reply
TIA,
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan
[+] [-] devuo|9 years ago|reply
Apparently the author of the blog only focused on japanese zen stories, which is unfortunate, as the stories of chinese zen masters — where zen as a school of buddhism was founded — are as truthful, if not more original, than the japanese stories the author selected.
[+] [-] akeck|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] corobo|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j2kun|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sweetjesus|9 years ago|reply
Don't Read The Zen Stories
- Zen-sama