I'm Indian and I know this about many other cultures too - pointing your feet at someone is really an incredibly offensive gesture. And given how the workplace here in tech is a myriad mix of cultures, I'd avoid it. While it clearly isn't considered offensive in the US, it's still a pretty rude gesture. You may think you're just being chill and laid back but the other person is thinking (unless you both have feet pointed at each other lol) you're a moron.
My first week in grad school I went to meet a professor and the fucker puts his feet up on his desk pointing them right at my face. Since I was a fob at the time, I wasn't quite sure how to take this. I lost respect for him that day. Unsurprisingly, he turned out to be an asshole of a professor too.
In a professional setting, most people wouldn't tell you to put them down, but it reflects badly on you. Do it in India and your boss would fire you, instantly.
"While it clearly isn't considered offensive in the US, it's still a pretty rude gesture"
There are a bunch of other gestures that meet the same criterion. I am Indian, so I'll list some I'm familiar with:
1. Not addressing your teacher/professor as "Sir/Madam". Addressing a teacher as Mr. X/Professor Y is verboten.
2. Displaying photos of your family at work (mild, but yes)
3. "Disrespecting" your elders/teachers/bosses with counterarguments.
...
On the social front, you'd be expected to
1. Not address your elders solely by their first name.
2. Not cohabit with the opposite sex before marriage.
3. Not smoke/drink.
4. Not eat pork/beef.
5. Not change your gender.
Which of these did you object to/are you going to object to? Will you refuse to work with someone trans-gendered, as would happen "instantly" in India?
The fact is, you were in the US not India. I would argue that the onus is on you to adjust yourself to the customs of your hosts rather than the other way around. Just as an Indian would expect any US (or otherwise foreign) visitors to keep in mind the Indian customs.
PS: you used two epithets to describe your teacher in the same paragraph. I find it amusing that your "Indian" sensibility (Guru! Respect!) is not offended by it.
I think they were not doing this to offend you. They don't even know this is an offensive gesture. In US the idea of of feet on the table might seem rude and unsanitary but it is not considered as an offensive gesture (like say, giving someone the middle finger).
> I lost respect for him that day. Unsurprisingly, he was an asshole of a professor too.
Hmm. Why do you say 'unsurprisingly'? Did you assume that he did it on purpose? If he did, then yes he is a douche bag, but I doubt he did it on purpose. Then your logic breaks down. The fact that he likes to put his feet on the table is independent of the fact that he is an asshole. And when you say you immediately "lost respect", that probably means you started to act towards him disrespectfully, and he was probably thinking "What a rude student, he is such an asshole. I don't understand why he acts like that towards me?" So to you he ended up being an asshole you probably seemed just as rude to him, all because he put his feet on the table and you mis-understood the gesture.
I think your university should have had some kind of cultural orientation for incoming international students to let them know that some gestures they find terribly insulting are just the norm. There is little hope the majority will change to your particular culture's sensibilities. I speak from experience, I lived half of my life in another country with different customs. There was some cultural orientation at the university, but there were also a lot of embarrassments and misunderstandings on both sides. I wish I had more silly little pointers and tips at the orientation rather than overgeneralized stuff like 'be prepared for new experiences and new things' -- instead something like this would be nice: "Americans feel strongly about their personal space. Stay the fuck away at an arm's length! Otherwise you creep them out" -- stuff like that.
"Do it in India and your boss would fire you, instantly."
You must have worked for some really sick companies in India to be "instantly fired" for putting your legs up on the desk. That kind of behaviour is appropriate(maybe) for some medieval feudal environment (lese majeste) but hardly in the 21st century. In any Indian company I worked for (and I've worked for a few), if a boss attempted to fire his subordinate just for putting his feet on the desk, the boss would be out of a job in record time.
Now if you went to America and expected an American to act by Indian norms and did something (by your admission not
offensive by American norms) and you felt all offended and huffy and "lost respect" for him on that basis, you are the idiot, not him. When you are in grad school, working etc in another country you should follow their norms as much as possible, not they yours.
Why don't you come back to India (I am an Indian and live in India these days and so "come" instead of "go") where you can be surrounded by people who follow your norms to the letter.
But then, norms vary widely across India as well (though obviously not as much as between India and America) so you might want to go back to the exact village or city you came from and never step out of it. That way you won't have to meet "fuckers" you "instantly lose respect for".
You must be a pleasure to work with and just the type of person who'd be comfortable in an informal startup atmosphere or on a college project team ;-). With your hyper sensitivity to "insult", I assume you constantly researched all things potentially offensive to all nationalities you encountered (and in an American University you must have encountered a few dozen) and kept this data up to date on a continuous basis.
You don't think that when you decide to live in another country, it might be wise to make some effort to adjust to the culture of that country?
Here's a tip: Before you let anything offend you, try to see if the other person might not have meant to offend you. Really try hard and give them the benefit of the doubt. At the end, if you think "they didn't mean to, but I'm still offended" then you should talk to the person.
I don't normally care for rants, but I think this one was great.
A few more "pet peeves":
1. Don't sit on my desk. I'm a programmer. My desk is also my dining table.
2. If I'm eating at my desk, don't touch my food. I'm so busy that I usually bring what I think I'll need for the day. I didn't factor in your needs too. Go to the vending machine.
3. If your come to my desk and see my typing furiously and I don't look up, that means I'm busy writing code or commenting on hn. Either way, if the building's not on fire, go away and send me an email.
4. If you get upset in a discussion with someone else, don't raise your voice, don't yell profanities, and most of all, don't slam the door or throw anything. That's when I leave for the day. Some of us have had enough of that for one lifetime.
5. If we're talking in my office, face me and take your hand off the doorknob. If it's important, I'm not going to rush through it because you're in a hurry to get somewhere else. If it's not important, then leave me alone.
6. If we're meeting, turn off your cellphone. If it vibrates, don't look at it to see who it is. If I'm not the most important person at that moment, then I don't want to meet with you.
7. I'm always happy to discuss important matters, but I don't do "status" meetings. If you want to know status, email me and I'll reply. Otherwise, my status report would read, "Nothing accomplished. Spent all day in status meetings."
8. If there's cake in the breakroom, have a piece, but leave your Tupperware in your car. This isn't Cheesecake Factory.
9. Don't lie to me. Ever. If you tell me that Joe agreed with these mods, I can easily confirm that with Joe. If he says you never talked to him, I will never listen to anything you ever say again.
10. If you had Mexican for lunch, cut the rest of us a break and use the restroom at the Shell station.
>If there's cake in the breakroom, have a piece, but leave your Tupperware in your car.
People actually do that? Where do you work?
>If you get upset in a discussion with someone else, don't raise your voice, don't yell profanities, and most of all, don't slam the door or throw anything.
If one of the last two happened, that's when I'd leave for good. I've seen people get upset and even raise their voices, but if it ever got even slightly physical, I think I'd have to go. It's just too easy for an object to hit someone "accidentally." The last thing I need is a red Swingline stuck in the back of my head.
Hahaha, I started reading this straight away without glancing at the sidebar. Nodding my head in agreement with the grossness of SF (even though I live here and love it) and then after a few paragraphs thought, "man, this guy does a pretty good impression of Zed Shaw."
Had I seen the sidebar before I read the article I would have stopped reading after the first paragraph.
Let me add that after reading the article I found it to be lacking in any real valuable content that would have made this a hacker news story. It seems like he is rambling on about something, that yes I agree it is rude, it is not that big of a deal and is part of the American culture.
Also, swear words were thrown in not because they added anything to the piece, but rather because he could. Shame really.
Some people are really obsessed with dirt and germs. Some people aren't. Some people find legs stretched out is quite comfortable. Some people really don't care about your dumb hangups and like to be comfortable. Trying to say this is some passive aggressive dominance thing is really, really stretching.
I like to be comfortable and lying down is comfortable, but I don't take my bed in and lie down during a meeting. I like farting but I don't do it in people's faces. Wanking feels good too but I don't do it at work.
Do you really not see how abhorrent it is to be inconsiderate of other people? It may not be passive-aggressive but it's certainly rude.
> Trying to say this is some passive aggressive dominance thing is really, really stretching.
True.
> Some people are really obsessed with dirt and germs. Some people aren't. Some people find legs stretched out is quite comfortable. Some people really don't care about your dumb hangups and like to be comfortable.
Yeah I don't know about the passive aggressiveness thing but it definitely shows a level of casualness that I'd be surprised to see in an interview or in a meeting with a potential investor.
We once had a candidate bust an apple out of his cargo pants in the middle of an interview and start chomping away.
While obviously we're not hiring people to be polite, it does show a certain level of social tone-deafness which often portends trouble down the road.
Well, I think it definitely is a cultural thing. I've never seen anyone prop their feet up on a table during a meeting and judging from the appearance of the gesture in various kinds of videos, I don't think it is common anywhere in Europe at all. This means that any explanation that calls on something crosscultural like 'wanting to relax' falls short. There is something more behind it, even if no one that does it realizes it.
Some cultural observations about shoes on the table, feces on the sidewalk, and what it all means.
a) shoes on table
Western Europeans also find the gesture of shoes on chairs and tables repulsive, both in public and in private.
In my experience, shoes on the table in public seems to be a US specific behavior, but please correct me if I'm wrong. You know, something you'd see in a Western. It's a very laissez faire gesture, of a confident and free people, unlike the stuck up Europeans with all their rules.
The most memorable experience for me was with the CEO of a company where I worked. He would do this in every meeting, even when we met with executives of another company. It could have been a dominance gesture, but more likely his hippy attitude.
I've also observed that people in the US tend to put their shoes where others will sit or put their hands, e.g. chairs, benches etc.
b) dog poo
People in the US pick up after their dogs, I find this great! A lot of Europeans don't, which is super nasty. The memory of dogshit in Paris and Berlin, especially on a hot summer day, makes me want to puke. Google for Paris and dogshit and see what I mean.
a + b) what it means
Now, to each their own, but from a hygiene/medical standpoint, shoes on chairs and tables should not be done. Let me explain why.
Even with no visible dogshit under your shoe, there are myriad diseases that can be transferred this way. It does not have to be as horrible as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinococcus_multilocularis, but there are many others. Eggs of parasitic worms hosted by domestic animals are quite hardy. That's why I'd say, leave you shoes (not necessarily feet) of chairs and tables. Why risk infecting yourself and others? Like wearing a seatbelt, a simple behavior that can save your life.
A lot of what you are saying is a sweeping generalisation.
> People in the US pick up after their dogs, I find this great! Europeans don't, which is super nasty.
I live in Yorkshire in the UK and you can get fined £1000 for not picking up your dog turd. I'm not sure how well it is policed but my town is fairly free of dog turd. Parks, pavements etc are clear. I dont see much at all.
Please dont make sweeping generalistions like this. You are just plain wrong.
Dog shit in Berlin - it's really awful. Sometimes I dream about founding a dog free city.
It's not the dogs fault, but I simply like my surroundings shit free. Unfortunately, I can't think of any way for that problem to go away. Certainly in Berlin a solution seems millenia away (while some other cities managed to agree on fines for dog shit on the street).
While it's aimed at Silicon Valley culture, I see some of this pretty much everywhere I go, and I'm not afraid to call someone out on it. Quote of the day: "It's kind of like if I went over to your desk, grabbed you by your greasy hair, yanked your neckbeard to my backside, and farted straight in your face while yelling, "I had Kung Pao chicken for lunch! HAHAHAAH!". Yes, that's what putting your feet up on shit is like to other people."
Putting your feet up on your own shit in your own home to get comfortable? Sure. Or maybe even on your own desk at the office. In a meeting, a professional setting and/or around people who aren't good friends? Please. I would personally walk out.
Choose one, either 'call someone out on it', or 'walk out'. Or, do like Zed and write a big passive-aggressive blog post about something that clearly bothers you, but that you won't deal with in person.
Nowhere in the article did he describe a reaction from any of these 'passive-aggresive dominants', after they were 'called out' on their offensive behavior.
Neither in Zed's article or this thread, has anyone done so much as mentioned their problem with the offending party.
Sheesh, people. I'm not throwing my feet up on the table, but if those who do bother you so much, then let them know when it happens right in front of you, instead of waiting and venting on the Internet.
I read this and thought, "oh, Zed Shaw has another fucking blog". Then I realized that this is another of Zed Shaw's fucking blogs.
Incidentally, most gut flora does not live so well on sidewalks and the bottoms of shoes. Anything that does will just be killed by your immune system.
If you are this afraid of disease, never use a sponge or your keyboard.
BTW, I don't normally put my feet on the table... but now that I know it annoys so many people, I am going to start doing it.
You probably should avoid acting/typing like Zed if you are going to make fun of him at all. Not that the arguments made against him are very poignant - shit transferred via shoes is still horribly gross regardless of health issues (and it's DUMB to do in a professional setting - even if it's San Fran).
you really have your biology wrong, shit even in microscopic amounts can carry parasites and bacteria that can kill you Why do you think dysentery is such a problem in the third world?
When I was in school, this sort of happened to me at a school clinic waiting room.
I was crossing my legs in the American style. Without realizing my feet were pointed at what appeared to be two middle eastern men and I noticed they were giggling. I noticed and put both feet down and immediately apologized to them. They were impressed that I knew and it made for a good ice breaker (however culturally risky).
By pointing, do you mean the soles of your shoes were facing them, or were the feet pointed in the direction of the men in the normal use of the word pointing? If it was the normal use of pointing, how do you avoid having your feet pointing towards whomever is in front of you when you walk? I'm really just trying to get a picture of the situation here.
This kind of reads like its written by a future Howard Hughes (not the rich part, the insane part). Seeing shit on the ground naturally leads to an aversion to feet. Nothing insane there.
Unless your hanging out with buddies or using an iPad, I think it's pretty common knowledge that propping your feet up is unprofessional at best and rude at worst.
Meh. Sounds like he's harboring the same kind of OCD as the schmuck that writes notes to his co-workers about clearing the "extra" time off the microwave.
Nobody is getting cholera from feet on desks, Monk. Double up on hand sanitizer and deal with it.
Right, just put up with it like a REAL MAN! I'll shrug it off, and like a real man, bust out that masculine hand sanitizer just like mommy uses.
It's not about just the cleanliness, it's about going out of your way to rudely put your damn feet where other people have to put their hands. It's offensive and it's doubly stupid because it takes effort to do.
So, if your lazy ass has to do this, then rock on manly man. You hardly earned it.
Hygienic or not. Zed or not. Poor manners can tell you a lot about what to expect from that person in a business relationship. I avoid people with poor manners.
So putting my feet up on my own desk, in my own cubicle, is a sign of poor manners? Well I think anyone with that opinion can screw themselves with whichever implement they've lodged up their rectum.
I sit in the same damn posture all day hammering at a keyboard, and one of my small luxuries is _printing out_ some documentation on whatever it is that I have to learn about, adjusting my chair to recline a bit, and kicking my feet up. I may do this for ten minutes or a half hour, and certainly not on a daily basis, and I certainly don't leave them on the desk if I have company.
Live and let live, people. If something doesn't harm you, and isn't deliberately malicious, you have nothing to whine about. Go get some work done.
That's very interesting, living in New York I really don't see much shit on the ground, even when commuting into the office. Though, when I visit San Francisco I don't remember that much shit, but I do remember lots of homeless people. I suppose the weather makes it the homeless mecca. Not too hot, not too cold.
I work/party/hang out in San Francisco, I'm there almost everyday, I don't remember ever seeing a human sized turd on a sidewalk. In fact, SF streets are some of the cleanest of any big city I've ever seen.
>> In fact, SF streets are some of the cleanest of any big city I've ever seen.
False. SF is a cesspit in any part of downtown, tenderloin, SOMA, the Mission, and pretty bad in many of the other parts. Every day for the past week I've watched a mountain sized pile of shit slowly grind down (by being kicked, stepped on, and rained on) into nothingness outside of our office. It's quite frankly repellent.
Now that I think of it, one time a (presumably) homeless man took a shit on the wall of our office building. It was there for weeks.
*Further SF horror stories: I've also witnessed a homeless man take a dump on the fence down the street from us in broad daylight. Also a coworker has seen a pile of dump propped up against a neighbor's door, and witnessed the shock of said neighbor as they came home to discover it.
it amazes me that people put up with living around poor people and their disgusting habits. this guy chooses to live in a city where there is human fecal matter on the ground as a matter of course.
I read an article yesterday (believe it was in the Times) about the Ipad. The article itself was pretty underwhelming, but there was a part that stuck out at me. The writer mentioned that he had a meeting with Steve Jobs. He comes in to the conference room, and there is Steve with his black turtle neck and his feet on the table.
<sarcasm>I mean if Steve Jobs does it then it must be alright.</sarcasm>
[+] [-] blizkreeg|16 years ago|reply
My first week in grad school I went to meet a professor and the fucker puts his feet up on his desk pointing them right at my face. Since I was a fob at the time, I wasn't quite sure how to take this. I lost respect for him that day. Unsurprisingly, he turned out to be an asshole of a professor too.
In a professional setting, most people wouldn't tell you to put them down, but it reflects badly on you. Do it in India and your boss would fire you, instantly.
[+] [-] steamboiler|16 years ago|reply
There are a bunch of other gestures that meet the same criterion. I am Indian, so I'll list some I'm familiar with:
1. Not addressing your teacher/professor as "Sir/Madam". Addressing a teacher as Mr. X/Professor Y is verboten.
2. Displaying photos of your family at work (mild, but yes)
3. "Disrespecting" your elders/teachers/bosses with counterarguments. ...
On the social front, you'd be expected to
1. Not address your elders solely by their first name.
2. Not cohabit with the opposite sex before marriage.
3. Not smoke/drink.
4. Not eat pork/beef.
5. Not change your gender.
Which of these did you object to/are you going to object to? Will you refuse to work with someone trans-gendered, as would happen "instantly" in India?
The fact is, you were in the US not India. I would argue that the onus is on you to adjust yourself to the customs of your hosts rather than the other way around. Just as an Indian would expect any US (or otherwise foreign) visitors to keep in mind the Indian customs.
PS: you used two epithets to describe your teacher in the same paragraph. I find it amusing that your "Indian" sensibility (Guru! Respect!) is not offended by it.
[+] [-] rdtsc|16 years ago|reply
> I lost respect for him that day. Unsurprisingly, he was an asshole of a professor too.
Hmm. Why do you say 'unsurprisingly'? Did you assume that he did it on purpose? If he did, then yes he is a douche bag, but I doubt he did it on purpose. Then your logic breaks down. The fact that he likes to put his feet on the table is independent of the fact that he is an asshole. And when you say you immediately "lost respect", that probably means you started to act towards him disrespectfully, and he was probably thinking "What a rude student, he is such an asshole. I don't understand why he acts like that towards me?" So to you he ended up being an asshole you probably seemed just as rude to him, all because he put his feet on the table and you mis-understood the gesture.
I think your university should have had some kind of cultural orientation for incoming international students to let them know that some gestures they find terribly insulting are just the norm. There is little hope the majority will change to your particular culture's sensibilities. I speak from experience, I lived half of my life in another country with different customs. There was some cultural orientation at the university, but there were also a lot of embarrassments and misunderstandings on both sides. I wish I had more silly little pointers and tips at the orientation rather than overgeneralized stuff like 'be prepared for new experiences and new things' -- instead something like this would be nice: "Americans feel strongly about their personal space. Stay the fuck away at an arm's length! Otherwise you creep them out" -- stuff like that.
[+] [-] plinkplonk|16 years ago|reply
You must have worked for some really sick companies in India to be "instantly fired" for putting your legs up on the desk. That kind of behaviour is appropriate(maybe) for some medieval feudal environment (lese majeste) but hardly in the 21st century. In any Indian company I worked for (and I've worked for a few), if a boss attempted to fire his subordinate just for putting his feet on the desk, the boss would be out of a job in record time.
Now if you went to America and expected an American to act by Indian norms and did something (by your admission not offensive by American norms) and you felt all offended and huffy and "lost respect" for him on that basis, you are the idiot, not him. When you are in grad school, working etc in another country you should follow their norms as much as possible, not they yours.
Why don't you come back to India (I am an Indian and live in India these days and so "come" instead of "go") where you can be surrounded by people who follow your norms to the letter.
But then, norms vary widely across India as well (though obviously not as much as between India and America) so you might want to go back to the exact village or city you came from and never step out of it. That way you won't have to meet "fuckers" you "instantly lose respect for".
You must be a pleasure to work with and just the type of person who'd be comfortable in an informal startup atmosphere or on a college project team ;-). With your hyper sensitivity to "insult", I assume you constantly researched all things potentially offensive to all nationalities you encountered (and in an American University you must have encountered a few dozen) and kept this data up to date on a continuous basis.
[+] [-] roundsquare|16 years ago|reply
Here's a tip: Before you let anything offend you, try to see if the other person might not have meant to offend you. Really try hard and give them the benefit of the doubt. At the end, if you think "they didn't mean to, but I'm still offended" then you should talk to the person.
[+] [-] edj|16 years ago|reply
Who says? I live in the US, I'm not Indian, and I find it quite offensive when people put their feet up on tables pointing towards me.
[+] [-] edw519|16 years ago|reply
A few more "pet peeves":
1. Don't sit on my desk. I'm a programmer. My desk is also my dining table.
2. If I'm eating at my desk, don't touch my food. I'm so busy that I usually bring what I think I'll need for the day. I didn't factor in your needs too. Go to the vending machine.
3. If your come to my desk and see my typing furiously and I don't look up, that means I'm busy writing code or commenting on hn. Either way, if the building's not on fire, go away and send me an email.
4. If you get upset in a discussion with someone else, don't raise your voice, don't yell profanities, and most of all, don't slam the door or throw anything. That's when I leave for the day. Some of us have had enough of that for one lifetime.
5. If we're talking in my office, face me and take your hand off the doorknob. If it's important, I'm not going to rush through it because you're in a hurry to get somewhere else. If it's not important, then leave me alone.
6. If we're meeting, turn off your cellphone. If it vibrates, don't look at it to see who it is. If I'm not the most important person at that moment, then I don't want to meet with you.
7. I'm always happy to discuss important matters, but I don't do "status" meetings. If you want to know status, email me and I'll reply. Otherwise, my status report would read, "Nothing accomplished. Spent all day in status meetings."
8. If there's cake in the breakroom, have a piece, but leave your Tupperware in your car. This isn't Cheesecake Factory.
9. Don't lie to me. Ever. If you tell me that Joe agreed with these mods, I can easily confirm that with Joe. If he says you never talked to him, I will never listen to anything you ever say again.
10. If you had Mexican for lunch, cut the rest of us a break and use the restroom at the Shell station.
[+] [-] dabent|16 years ago|reply
>If there's cake in the breakroom, have a piece, but leave your Tupperware in your car.
People actually do that? Where do you work?
>If you get upset in a discussion with someone else, don't raise your voice, don't yell profanities, and most of all, don't slam the door or throw anything.
If one of the last two happened, that's when I'd leave for good. I've seen people get upset and even raise their voices, but if it ever got even slightly physical, I think I'd have to go. It's just too easy for an object to hit someone "accidentally." The last thing I need is a red Swingline stuck in the back of my head.
[+] [-] tumult|16 years ago|reply
Oh. I guess he just moved here from New York.
[+] [-] X-Istence|16 years ago|reply
Let me add that after reading the article I found it to be lacking in any real valuable content that would have made this a hacker news story. It seems like he is rambling on about something, that yes I agree it is rude, it is not that big of a deal and is part of the American culture.
Also, swear words were thrown in not because they added anything to the piece, but rather because he could. Shame really.
[+] [-] __david__|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sern|16 years ago|reply
Do you really not see how abhorrent it is to be inconsiderate of other people? It may not be passive-aggressive but it's certainly rude.
[+] [-] tjpick|16 years ago|reply
True.
> Some people are really obsessed with dirt and germs. Some people aren't. Some people find legs stretched out is quite comfortable. Some people really don't care about your dumb hangups and like to be comfortable.
A poor excuse for bad manners.
[+] [-] dschobel|16 years ago|reply
We once had a candidate bust an apple out of his cargo pants in the middle of an interview and start chomping away.
While obviously we're not hiring people to be polite, it does show a certain level of social tone-deafness which often portends trouble down the road.
[+] [-] Confusion|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] car|16 years ago|reply
a) shoes on table
Western Europeans also find the gesture of shoes on chairs and tables repulsive, both in public and in private.
In my experience, shoes on the table in public seems to be a US specific behavior, but please correct me if I'm wrong. You know, something you'd see in a Western. It's a very laissez faire gesture, of a confident and free people, unlike the stuck up Europeans with all their rules.
The most memorable experience for me was with the CEO of a company where I worked. He would do this in every meeting, even when we met with executives of another company. It could have been a dominance gesture, but more likely his hippy attitude.
I've also observed that people in the US tend to put their shoes where others will sit or put their hands, e.g. chairs, benches etc.
b) dog poo
People in the US pick up after their dogs, I find this great! A lot of Europeans don't, which is super nasty. The memory of dogshit in Paris and Berlin, especially on a hot summer day, makes me want to puke. Google for Paris and dogshit and see what I mean.
a + b) what it means
Now, to each their own, but from a hygiene/medical standpoint, shoes on chairs and tables should not be done. Let me explain why.
Even with no visible dogshit under your shoe, there are myriad diseases that can be transferred this way. It does not have to be as horrible as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinococcus_multilocularis, but there are many others. Eggs of parasitic worms hosted by domestic animals are quite hardy. That's why I'd say, leave you shoes (not necessarily feet) of chairs and tables. Why risk infecting yourself and others? Like wearing a seatbelt, a simple behavior that can save your life.
[+] [-] chunkyslink|16 years ago|reply
> People in the US pick up after their dogs, I find this great! Europeans don't, which is super nasty.
I live in Yorkshire in the UK and you can get fined £1000 for not picking up your dog turd. I'm not sure how well it is policed but my town is fairly free of dog turd. Parks, pavements etc are clear. I dont see much at all.
Please dont make sweeping generalistions like this. You are just plain wrong.
[+] [-] Tichy|16 years ago|reply
It's not the dogs fault, but I simply like my surroundings shit free. Unfortunately, I can't think of any way for that problem to go away. Certainly in Berlin a solution seems millenia away (while some other cities managed to agree on fines for dog shit on the street).
[+] [-] pavel_lishin|16 years ago|reply
Tell that to the giant pile of dog shit I found right outside my door with a shoe-print in it.
[+] [-] ax0n|16 years ago|reply
Putting your feet up on your own shit in your own home to get comfortable? Sure. Or maybe even on your own desk at the office. In a meeting, a professional setting and/or around people who aren't good friends? Please. I would personally walk out.
[+] [-] mscarborough|16 years ago|reply
Nowhere in the article did he describe a reaction from any of these 'passive-aggresive dominants', after they were 'called out' on their offensive behavior.
Neither in Zed's article or this thread, has anyone done so much as mentioned their problem with the offending party.
Sheesh, people. I'm not throwing my feet up on the table, but if those who do bother you so much, then let them know when it happens right in front of you, instead of waiting and venting on the Internet.
[+] [-] jrockway|16 years ago|reply
Incidentally, most gut flora does not live so well on sidewalks and the bottoms of shoes. Anything that does will just be killed by your immune system.
If you are this afraid of disease, never use a sponge or your keyboard.
BTW, I don't normally put my feet on the table... but now that I know it annoys so many people, I am going to start doing it.
[+] [-] invisible|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zedshaw|16 years ago|reply
http://blog.jrock.us/
[+] [-] tjmaxal|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sown|16 years ago|reply
I was crossing my legs in the American style. Without realizing my feet were pointed at what appeared to be two middle eastern men and I noticed they were giggling. I noticed and put both feet down and immediately apologized to them. They were impressed that I knew and it made for a good ice breaker (however culturally risky).
[+] [-] tsuraan|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ojbyrne|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zedshaw|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boryas|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marknutter|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryandvm|16 years ago|reply
Nobody is getting cholera from feet on desks, Monk. Double up on hand sanitizer and deal with it.
[+] [-] zedshaw|16 years ago|reply
It's not about just the cleanliness, it's about going out of your way to rudely put your damn feet where other people have to put their hands. It's offensive and it's doubly stupid because it takes effort to do.
So, if your lazy ass has to do this, then rock on manly man. You hardly earned it.
[+] [-] jacoblyles|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iamwil|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Keyframe|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] erlanger|16 years ago|reply
I sit in the same damn posture all day hammering at a keyboard, and one of my small luxuries is _printing out_ some documentation on whatever it is that I have to learn about, adjusting my chair to recline a bit, and kicking my feet up. I may do this for ten minutes or a half hour, and certainly not on a daily basis, and I certainly don't leave them on the desk if I have company.
Live and let live, people. If something doesn't harm you, and isn't deliberately malicious, you have nothing to whine about. Go get some work done.
[+] [-] asnyder|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lrm242|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|16 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] guelo|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justin|16 years ago|reply
False. SF is a cesspit in any part of downtown, tenderloin, SOMA, the Mission, and pretty bad in many of the other parts. Every day for the past week I've watched a mountain sized pile of shit slowly grind down (by being kicked, stepped on, and rained on) into nothingness outside of our office. It's quite frankly repellent.
Now that I think of it, one time a (presumably) homeless man took a shit on the wall of our office building. It was there for weeks.
*Further SF horror stories: I've also witnessed a homeless man take a dump on the fence down the street from us in broad daylight. Also a coworker has seen a pile of dump propped up against a neighbor's door, and witnessed the shock of said neighbor as they came home to discover it.
[+] [-] jorgeortiz85|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nazgulnarsil|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vital101|16 years ago|reply
<sarcasm>I mean if Steve Jobs does it then it must be alright.</sarcasm>