Plasma wings could change the way airplanes are designed and flown

[nhallsny]

This article was in need of a windtunnel video showing the effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVJjn1pt08g . The right type of plasma can reattach separated flow. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_separation).

[Mithaldu]

This one shows it on a more human scale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUzHF17UC2g

[curveship]

wow, thanks for the vid! can anyone explain why this happens?

[fmp]

>A scaled-down gale blows over a flat plate set inside the tabletop wind tunnel. Despite the low lighting and hazy Plexiglas view portals, we can clearly see the frenzied fluttering of streamer ribbons, called telltales, in the field of little wind vanes that carpets the exposed test surface inside.

I'm really bothered by this style of journalism which feels the need to start off every story with an in media res narrative instead of just telling you the most important points and working its way down like a traditional newspaper article should.

I don't care about the scene at the wind tunnel you visited while researching this story. Tell me about the plasma wings.

[drjesusphd]

I see this more and more and also find it tiresome. I stop reading and go straight to the HN comments. At least then I'll more quickly learn what the damn article is about.

[b_emery]

Indeed. There is a reason for the inverted pyramid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_pyramid

[jombiezebus]

Agreed. This style is called "Long-form journalism" for anyone not already familiar with the term.

[hexane360]

It seems journalists mostly do this to mask how few facts they have on the subject. https://lostbetweentheletters.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/ba...

[snowwrestler]

You are very interested in the subject, so this seems unnecessary.

Most people are not, and need to be hooked. That's what starting a story like this is intended to do. It's the same reason that so many movies and TV shows start with an action scene and then circle back to start the exposition.

[Feneric]

It's surprising that even with the energy it takes to generate a plasma strong enough and in enough quantity to achieve the desired effects, it can still result in an estimated 25% energy savings. It goes to show how much energy just deals with drag in the current system.

[phkahler]

>> It's surprising that even with the energy it takes to generate a plasma strong enough and in enough quantity to achieve the desired effects, it can still result in an estimated 25% energy savings. It goes to show how much energy just deals with drag in the current system.

You've made an assumption that they are taking the energy required to create the plasma into account in their aerodynamic efficiency calculations. I didn't see any indication of the power required to produce the plasma, much less that number of power already required to fly. I did see the suggestion of using it on electric planes or wind turbines where larger amounts of electric power are readily available - one can interpret that availability as a convenience (high voltages and power are already there meaning less complexity) or an oversight (we're just neglecting the energy required). Nowhere in the article is this directly addressed. It would not surprise me if the truth were somewhere in between - it takes a lot of power, but saves even more.

I've seen a similar situation in the hybrid car world when making certain comparisons.

[aardvark291]

> It goes to show how much energy just deals with drag in the current system.

All of the energy used during cruise flight (straight and level, accelerated) goes to drag.

[ep103]

I can't seem to find anything in google, but I remember reading about something similar some ~10 years ago for military aircraft. Apparently there were experimental fighter jets that had large ionizing beams of some sort shooting in front of the aircraft? The claim was along the lines of by ionizing the air in front of the craft, it significantly reduced the drag the plane experienced flying through that pocket of air moments later.

I'm having a hard time finding articles on it, but it sounds so similar to this article.

[nkoren]

There have been theories for over a decade that the B2 includes a technology like this: http://starburstfound.org/electrograviticsblog/?p=21

(Edit: Here's the farthest-back link I can find, allegedly from 1993(!): http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_flyingobje....

Alas, it's full of anti-gravity and over-unity and other such rubbish, but the bit about the B-2 using electrostatic discharge to shape the airflow around it certainly does sound like what's being referenced in the OP. Almost make me wonder whether anti-gravity etc. aren't simply smokescreens to fuzz up the S/N ratio of leaks about legitimately cutting-edge technologies.)

[jcbeard]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was googling for that. I remember two different popular science or mechanics article with that headline. One that had something to do with plasma cloaking, and the other was using plasma for a heat shield...similar to the actuator concept. Again, seems my google-foo has failed...

[y04nn]

I also remember something like this. I just checked, this is a old idea, there is a patent (US 3507348 A) from 1970

[Gracana]

From what they're saying in this article, it seems like they're just using it to push air around in the right spots, ionization is a byproduct.

[Rooster61]

I think the difference between then and now in terms of making this a viable technology is the presence of computers fast enough to process the shape of the incoming airmass and shape the plasma to compensate. I would imagine the calculations required are fairly intensive.

[mcguire]

I believe that is different. IIRC, that theory was about shooting ionizing radiation in front of the vehicle to reduce air density.

This is using tiny, precise plasma "fans" plus a lot of computational fluid dynamics to direct the airflow on a small scale. And it's not a very bad idea.

[paulftw]

Helicopters use complex and expensive mechanisms to articulate rotor blades. If plasma can eliminate hinges on wings hopefully it can also be used to dramatically simplify the helicopter design. That'll be a real breakthrough.

[shpx]

In a helicopter if your engine stops working, you start falling. Falling produces wind on your rotor blades and causes them to spin faster. Blades spinning faster makes you to stop falling. This effect is called autorotation and you control it by varying the pitch of your rotor blades. Autorotation means that you don't automatically die if your engine fails.

With plasma actuators (also quadcopters), battery faliure means death.

[themartorana]

"Corke and his team reported that the wind tunnel test item, which used “new actuators that developed 20 times more thrust while consuming 100 times less power, produced a 65% drag reduction.” The Notre Dame researchers have found that introducing a small oscillation whose waves move perpendicular to the air flow path can halt the onset of the so-called near-surface flow instabilities that lead to turbulence."

Sounds like it's already a real breakthrough. After this it may just be a problem of imagining where to put this stuff.

[JoeAltmaier]

Its one thing to reduce vibration and fatigue. But increasing stability is a two-edged sword. If the plasma actuator fails, suddenly at 500MPH you're less stable. And no device is foolproof, especially one that requires high voltage. A lightening strike, an engine failure and the plane won't fly?

[j-pb]

> A lightening strike, an engine failure and the plane won't fly?

How is this different from every other fly by wire system? And it's not only electronics, when the hydraulics fail on a plane you also lose all control surfaces.

I rather have a solid state system that merely requires voltage to operate than the complex system of moving parts, linear actuators, hydraulic actuators, and fly by wire electronics that is currently required.

[hx87]

Presumably the plane's stability without plasma wings would the same as on previous designs--with the exception of military fighter craft, who face a stability vs maneuverability trade-off, there are no benefits to making a civilian craft less stable.

[smsm42]

Yes, I also thought about this danger too when reading it. Also, assuming the savings are real, that means the aircraft would take on less fuel. Then, if the actuator fails and the craft is reduced to flying the old, less-efficient, way, it may be in trouble - e.g. in trans-atlantic flight or in conditions where there's no easy landing nearby, since your fuel consumption rises dramatically.

[sp0ck]

Now we know why most of UFO's always have eerie glow. It's just actuators :)

[Rooster61]

That wasn't plasma. UFO's have vents that emit swamp gas around the vehicle.

[DiabloD3]

It also explains why they can suddenly accelerate and continue accelerating at high speeds: charged particles accelerating in a magnetic field.

[Rooster61]

300% range increase on a drone size vehicle, huh? Imagine the application to conventional jet travel. This would revolutionize the industry, letting jets fly far further than they currently can.

[aardvark291]

> drone size vehicle

How big is "drone size"?

https://www.amazon.com/DJI-Phantom-Aerial-Drone-Quadcopter/d...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_RQ-4_Global_H...

[sametmax]

Jean-Pierre Petit have been talking about this for many years, but has been considered a sweet lunatic. The fact he is a UFO believer didn't help, but it's too bad they discarded all his ideas because of it.

[strongai]

Hats off to all those sci-fi stories that described future aircraft as enclosed by glowing silhouettes of various colors. We're living in the future :0)

[sevenless]

So much for billions of years of blind evolution. Take that, Mother Nature! Don't see birds flying around with goddamn plasma wings, do you?

[sandworm101]

What happens when it rains? Wouldn't moisture increase the electrical conductivity of air to the point of defeating such devices, or at least radically increasing the energy required? And if that is true, wouldn't random differences in local moisture at various actuators on different parts of the plane, say while approaching a wet runway, result in randomized effects?

[Filligree]

Rainwater isn't actually very conductive, being pretty close to pure water. Water itself isn't conductive without contaminants.

That said? Good question! I can't imagine that throwing physical droplets through the plasma would help, but maybe it wouldn't hurt.

If it turns out to be a problem, then you'd have to design planes that still work without the plasma.

[woliveirajr]

The article mentions airplanes and trucks, but what about trains? So much of the design is made to reduce air drag (look at ICE and TGV) and friction.

I bet plasma could find some uses there, too, even as an upgrade to those old and slow models that are still in use.

Would love to have a company selling upgrade to freight trains.

[iaw]

Serious question: ignoring issues with O3 toxicity, could you strap a plasma wind generator to the front of a car to create downforce and reduce air resistance?

Thinking through it I suspect the numbers don't line up for it to be feasible/economic but I've often wondered how we could displace the air in front of a vehicle without impeding the vehicles travel in doing so.

[byebyetech]

>>“A tiny push at the right place and time can excite a much larger, and often positive, result.”

I have to agree with that.

[ape4]

It would make me nervous to fly in a plane without physical actuators. But maybe I'm old fashioned.

[mertd]

If it makes you feel any better, the actuators of the physical actuators haven't been physical for more than a decade now.

[Rooster61]

I didn't get that from the article. I think the idea is less of replacing conventional actuators completely, and more covering the the physical actuators with a layer of plasma to mitigate non-efficient airflow before it hits the actuator.

[Shivetya]

Okay, so how does it fair in rain, ice, and snow, laden weather?

[sunstone]

This kind of stuff might work in the hyperloop.

[m0llusk]

This technology uses plasma to influence air flow, but the hyperloop uses a near vacuum to facilitate travel. Nothing to push against, as is said.

[mrfusion]

Guys lets patent putting this on golf balls!