As a witness of protests at Maidan square in Kiev, I was staggered by the depiction of the events in Russian medias: it was a heavily engineered and coherently orchestrated image full of humongous distortions to the point of creating a parallel reality. Their usual tool is taking an insignificant trend/event that fits their needs and blowing it out of proportions ("nazi" at Maidan, "repressed Russian-speaking population" in mostly Russian-speaking Kiev), producing emotional news about fake events ("a little boy in Slavyansk crucified by Ukrainian punishers"), carefully planned wording and dictionary ("Ukrainian junta/punishers"), flooding websites with paid trolls [1].
Having seen it myself, I will not believe a single word from Russian medias until the Russian regime and its centralized control over media is gone.
The same shit is happening here. Massive distortion of reality and epic-level propaganda on US media. We need to always be skeptical of the pushed narrative.
But neo-nazis like Andriy Parubiy did play a significant role.
The guy founded Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok. There's nothing "nazi" about them, they are nazi and they're not trying to hide it at all. Look at the logo of the party they founded, look at the Azov Battalion insignia.
Parubiy first became the head of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council mostly managing paramilitary units and now he is the chairman of the Ukrainian parliament. Tyahnybok made it to the top list of antisemites, published by the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
Journalist in Kiev are being killed on a regular basis. Alexander Shchetinin was found shot dead in his apartment today. A month ago car bomb killed Pavel Sheremet.
I clearly do not want to support russian propaganda but as european I distrust the usa as much as russia. The usa has a way to big influence on european media. Its very nicely described in this video of german satire show "Die Anstalt" how big german media companies are financed and controlled through transatlactic companies: https://youtu.be/1ntSxZatFv8 (only german, couldn't find one with english subtitles). There is also a nice video of young journalist Tilo Jung how he asks german government about the fact that russia is renewing their atomic weapons (its bad) and then he asks what they think about the fact that the usa is doing the same inside germany with their atomic weapons (good).
Also they descripe nicely how the usa is and was destabelising the near east and we europeans have this huge crisis next to us now because of those actions. https://youtu.be/MCjeHLjyiMo
In the end for me the usa is playing this game of the good and the bad as much as russia is and as a european I see ourselfs in another political situation than good and bad, we are something third.
Based on the number of false equivalencies and specious arguments in this comment thread, it looks like the Russian trolls also have Hacker News on their roster of Western social media sites.
This comment is so typical of any story that discusses Russia these days: a flat out rejection of the idea that people who disagree might just be people who disagree. You're either against Russia or you're paid by them/are them.
It's ridiculous and just makes the anti-Russia position look piss weak, or even like propaganda itself. And I say that as a man born in western Europe who has never even been to Russia, but this business of constantly painting anyone who doesn't toe the party line as a paid troll is disgusting.
Definetly. HN may not have a huge audience, but it's a very common source of news and articles that later get republished in other aggregators; I would bet they'd use more subtle tactics there though.
The New York Times has a long history of cooperating with three-letter agencies as a state mouthpiece. The irony of their publishing this article is delicious.
Why is this ironic? I'm struggling to find a reasonable interpretation for this claim other than "The NY Times has been wrong about issues of spying and propaganda before, therefore it's not worth my time to consider the claims in this article, and I dismiss it completely." Which is a reasonable thing to believe. A little harsh in my opinion, but reasonable can disagree. However, it's definitely not ironic.
Even if you believe that the NY Times is nothing more than an appendage of the US security establishment, then it's completely straightforward that the establishment would be trying to counteract the propaganda. It's certainly not ironic for the CIA to try to identify and stop foreign spies even as it itself uses spies, or that the military builds armor even as it also uses guns, is it?
If you believe that the NY Times has an institutional position that propaganda is always and forever a legitimate tool of the government, then there's no contradiction if they also call out propaganda for the purpose of neutralizing it.
If you believe that the NY Times is more or less a legitimate news organization that maybe has made mistakes in the past, then I think the article is newsworthy and relevant.
I keep seeing discussion of Russian involvement in other countries' politics dismissed as ironic, which seems to just be a rhetorical trick to make it sound like there's a more sophisticated argument than just "I don't believe that source".
That story is pretty extreme, but I (yes, an anon account on a random website) can confirm much of this is true based on some reasonable in-depth network analysis.
Take a look at the Incirlik story on twitter https://twitter.com/search?q=Incirlik and note the weird patten many have of reposting thing like emergency response accounts in between pro-Trump messages, and weird conspiracy theories (although [1]).
From the US communist parties of the 1930s to the overleveraged anti-American sentiments of US citizens in the 1960s to the massively expanded and nebulous academic rush to redefine oppression in the 1990s to the "European socialism is so perfect" fantasies of the American lower class in 2010s, Russian propaganda has long been the bedrock of modern America leftism.
Ah, typical whataboutism. Because the Russian propaganda is so extreme in distorting the truth, everyone else must do the same. Reminds me of people who compare the political movements they don't like to ISIS, because "both are bad".
Governments do this, almost everywhere. But the Russians have been mastering these techniques for over a century now, and Maskirovka is a significant aspect of Russian military doctrine, which we in the West - while we are tuned into our own variety of it (the Pentagon are really good at this too) - are not necessarily prepared to understand, especially the Russian variant, completely:
It has relevance to us here on HN because after all, these same techniques can be de-weaponized and re-industrialized, and such actions have legitimacy in the marketing world in which we all play. It is indeed wise to learn the variants of deception that major governments - and other world-oriented bodies - enact upon us, the populace.
Because the people it is targetting are so siloed, and so angry at the other side they don't really look past the information. The two sides that they are appealing to are not doing any sort of source evaluation on things that make a person they distrust look untrustworthy. They want that information to be true soooooooooo bad they are failing to do basic information literacy.
They have much better control of media. Social media can be attacked this way, but, like China, it's relatively trivial to push the public towards a "friendly" competitor.
I use a simple method to recognize Putin's propagandists:
Ask if someone is willing to condemn Putin for doing similar invasions as Hitler did in the 1930s.
If the only answers you get to that question are personal attacks and attacks on USA, the person writing is probably working in St Petersburg and paid to write things on the internet.
Edit: 1. I am not American "pabloski", at least get the unserious personal attacks correct. 2. USA generally don't annex territory, unlike Hitler and Putin.
Edit 2: I would ask "pabloski" if he was willing to condemn modern invasions and theft of area in Europe, but it isn't really needed, after he behaved just like I described and he even gave an rt-link.
Are you sure they are not the USA who are doing similar invasions as Hitler? Do you remember? Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria ( through Al-Nusra aka Al-Qaeda, yes Al-Qaeda! ).
Both Russian and American medias are two sides of same coin. Both are expert in spreading propaganda, only difference is American media is convincing and Russian media appears to be fake and there is no freedom of media in Russia and freedom of media is rarely used in the US.
I follow RT and NYTimes, and I can say both have left journalism long back.
Whatever anyone's qualms about the New York Times, I find it hard to take seriously any argument that puts it on the same level as RT. The New York Times is not in fact an instrument of the US Government.
[+] [-] dmytrish|9 years ago|reply
Having seen it myself, I will not believe a single word from Russian medias until the Russian regime and its centralized control over media is gone.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls_from_Olgino
[+] [-] gfosco|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bfuller|9 years ago|reply
I don't know the answer but it stands to reason that if it works for the Russians it will work for the US aswell
[+] [-] hcarvalhoalves|9 years ago|reply
What these countries have in common?
[+] [-] cancancan|9 years ago|reply
The guy founded Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok. There's nothing "nazi" about them, they are nazi and they're not trying to hide it at all. Look at the logo of the party they founded, look at the Azov Battalion insignia.
Parubiy first became the head of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council mostly managing paramilitary units and now he is the chairman of the Ukrainian parliament. Tyahnybok made it to the top list of antisemites, published by the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
Journalist in Kiev are being killed on a regular basis. Alexander Shchetinin was found shot dead in his apartment today. A month ago car bomb killed Pavel Sheremet.
Russian trolls are the least of your problems.
[+] [-] faebi|9 years ago|reply
Also they descripe nicely how the usa is and was destabelising the near east and we europeans have this huge crisis next to us now because of those actions. https://youtu.be/MCjeHLjyiMo
In the end for me the usa is playing this game of the good and the bad as much as russia is and as a european I see ourselfs in another political situation than good and bad, we are something third.
[+] [-] ariwilson|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zigzigzag|9 years ago|reply
It's ridiculous and just makes the anti-Russia position look piss weak, or even like propaganda itself. And I say that as a man born in western Europe who has never even been to Russia, but this business of constantly painting anyone who doesn't toe the party line as a paid troll is disgusting.
[+] [-] golergka|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dleslie|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] akjj|9 years ago|reply
Even if you believe that the NY Times is nothing more than an appendage of the US security establishment, then it's completely straightforward that the establishment would be trying to counteract the propaganda. It's certainly not ironic for the CIA to try to identify and stop foreign spies even as it itself uses spies, or that the military builds armor even as it also uses guns, is it?
If you believe that the NY Times has an institutional position that propaganda is always and forever a legitimate tool of the government, then there's no contradiction if they also call out propaganda for the purpose of neutralizing it.
If you believe that the NY Times is more or less a legitimate news organization that maybe has made mistakes in the past, then I think the article is newsworthy and relevant.
I keep seeing discussion of Russian involvement in other countries' politics dismissed as ironic, which seems to just be a rhetorical trick to make it sound like there's a more sophisticated argument than just "I don't believe that source".
[+] [-] tptacek|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DenisM|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oxide|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] golergka|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tpm|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway_jc|9 years ago|reply
That story is pretty extreme, but I (yes, an anon account on a random website) can confirm much of this is true based on some reasonable in-depth network analysis.
Take a look at the Incirlik story on twitter https://twitter.com/search?q=Incirlik and note the weird patten many have of reposting thing like emergency response accounts in between pro-Trump messages, and weird conspiracy theories (although [1]).
(Throwaway for various reasons)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
[+] [-] mason240|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rbanffy|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emblem21|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whybroke|9 years ago|reply
Moral of the story: don't criticize Russia with today's HN crowd.
[+] [-] zaro|9 years ago|reply
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-29/huffingon-post-revo...
[+] [-] anc84|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ThisIBereave|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Grue3|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wonkaWonka|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fit2rule|9 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_deception
It has relevance to us here on HN because after all, these same techniques can be de-weaponized and re-industrialized, and such actions have legitimacy in the marketing world in which we all play. It is indeed wise to learn the variants of deception that major governments - and other world-oriented bodies - enact upon us, the populace.
[+] [-] anovikov|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] avs733|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] golergka|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmnicolas|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rbanffy|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yogthos|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] damptowel|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] achikin|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] berntb|9 years ago|reply
Ask if someone is willing to condemn Putin for doing similar invasions as Hitler did in the 1930s.
If the only answers you get to that question are personal attacks and attacks on USA, the person writing is probably working in St Petersburg and paid to write things on the internet.
Edit: 1. I am not American "pabloski", at least get the unserious personal attacks correct. 2. USA generally don't annex territory, unlike Hitler and Putin.
Edit 2: I would ask "pabloski" if he was willing to condemn modern invasions and theft of area in Europe, but it isn't really needed, after he behaved just like I described and he even gave an rt-link.
[+] [-] pabloski|9 years ago|reply
WTF, at least listen to Gen. Wesley Clark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8YtF76s-yM
How can you ( americans ) condemn Russia without an ounce of shame? I am an EU citizen, so I am not russian, not a Putin shill, not a payed troll.
And what about your propaganda machine? The shameless media who attack Donald Trump on each word he spells. The same media who fabricate war stories https://www.rt.com/news/356734-aleppo-child-image-china/
Read the article first, don't stop to rt.com to draw conclusions.
[+] [-] sergiotapia|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tashkent|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] oxide|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] laretluval|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] rbanffy|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tptacek|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kushti|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zde|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tpm|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kushti|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lipun4u|9 years ago|reply
I follow RT and NYTimes, and I can say both have left journalism long back.
[+] [-] tptacek|9 years ago|reply