I remember reading this in college and coming away with the feeling that what he was proposing was impossible.
I didn't know what my Abilities were and how they relate to the others around me such that I can use them effectively.
Not only that I didn't even know what I desire aside from food and sex.
Luckily I was on a career trajectory and had quite a bit of experience ahead of me so I took solace in the idea that world travel, responsibilities etc... would flesh a lot of those abilities and desires things out for me.
It's been 13 years since, and I still have no idea where my Abilities lie or what I Desire aside from food and sex.
I like his suggestion to read Sartre, though I suggest Camus instead.
I think a large part of the problem is that when people talk about finding "happiness" they are actually talking about "winning at life". Which is impossible of course. Every time that you do something that you think will make you happy, and you ask yourself 'is this it?' you allready know the answer, because someone who's satisfied wouldn't ask 'is this it?'. And if you spend years thinking about "finding happiness" I don't think there's anything that will stop you from asking "is this it?". I think you have found happiness when the idea "life is meaningless" seems obvious and irrelevant. If we could get rid of the concept of happiness we probably should. As with a lot of existential problems it is only really a problem if you know about it.
"In short, he has not dedicated his life to reaching a pre-defined goal, but he has rather chosen a way of life he KNOWS he will enjoy. The goal is absolutely secondary: it is the functioning toward the goal which is important."
Dilbert cartoonist Scott Adams has recommended the systems approach vs. a goal-oriented approach. I think he explains it in a more accessible way. Here's his presentation pitching his book: Passion is Overrated and Goals are for Losers http://www.slideshare.net/Scottadams925/goals-are-for-losers...
Profound, yes, but also pretty much as old as time. "Don't do something, be someone." "The journey is more important than the destination." Etc. etc. Maybe new to folks who're used to a goal-obsessed environment. Nice to see that more people are opening up to it.
"no one HAS to do something he doesn’t want to do for the rest of his life. But then again, if that’s what you wind up doing, by all means convince yourself that you HAD to do it. You’ll have lots of company."
I don't think it's necessary bad to choose a life that's ordinary. In fact he says that if you do then simply convince yourself that you had to. It's your life and you can always readjust your goals to match your circumstances.
Said slightly differently: "If you end up with a boring miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest, or some guy on television telling you how to do your shit, then you deserve it." - Frank Zappa
I'm away from my well annotated copy* of _The Proud Gentleman_ but this letter has almost certainly come from that collection. It makes more sense in context of his other writings from the time.
Another quote, from the same, which I remember as vividly as (and juxtaposed with) this letter:
"Everybody is looking for someone who can stand up in the wind. It is lonely standing up and crowded lying down. I refuse to be an anchor for other people’s dreams—but then I refuse to anchor mine to anyone else."
* I wish my younger self knew the risk of loaning such a loved and personal book
Coincidentally, yesterday I attended a talk by Bernardo Kastrup on the topic of finding our purpose in life. Kastrup is a philosophical idealist, he explained an alternative to the existentialist view of creating your own story and meaning in a essentially meaningless universe outside of ourselves reasoning in part from recent insights in physics. For example:
In one of his books he says the meaning of life is "about experiencing existence, in all its angles and glory, for the sheer and pure sake of experience itself! We don’t eat a nice meal, make love or travel to beautiful locations just to understand or make sense of something. We do these things because the experiences themselves imbue our lives with a kind of timeless meaning, independent of comprehension."
-- Kastrup, Bernardo. More Than Allegory: On Religious Myth, Truth And Belief (p 203). John Hunt Publishing.
Ask yourself the right question in the moment itself, fully aware of your emotions and the things around you, and the answers could rise up automatically - 'the meaning of life' cannot be an armchair intellectual exercise he says.
This has been my experience in life as well, it takes practise to get back to the Nexus. As Dr. Soran tells Picard: "They say time is the fire in which we burn. Right now, Captain, my time is running out. We leave so many things unfinished in our lives... I know you understand"
> In one of his books he says the meaning of life is "about experiencing existence, in all its angles and glory, for the sheer and pure sake of experience itself! We don’t eat a nice meal, make love or travel to beautiful locations just to understand or make sense of something. We do these things because the experiences themselves imbue our lives with a kind of timeless meaning, independent of comprehension." -- Kastrup, Bernardo. More Than Allegory: On Religious Myth, Truth And Belief (p 203). John Hunt Publishing.
That's an interesting perspective, but, let me poke at it bit.
If you were to be able to experience all those things you describe but had no one to share them with, would they have meaning? What if you were in a simulation so that it seemed like you were doing all these things with other people, but you knew that you are in a simulation all alone? Would these things still have meaning? Would the experience be worthwhile?
I would suggest that whilst they may still be somewhat worthwhile, without other people to share those experiences with, without a public sphere within which to express your unique and distinct story to the rest of humanity, life becomes significantly less meaningful.
To build meaning, we need both the private experiences you describe and the existence of others who can bear witness to our lives and give it an existence outside of our own minds. Yes, the experiences are valuable but they become exponentially more so when they are part of the story of our lives, communicated to our equals.
For those not familiar with Hunter S. Thompson and looking to get an understanding of his outsize personality and cult following, I highly recommend watching the 2 movies in which Johnny Depp played his character:
His ability to just push himself into the situations and into what he was writing was outstanding. He saw and he wrote, one of the best writers from U.S.
Fear and loathing - my favorite movie, period. I saw it numerous times, and after initial amazement of how deep and wild some people can go with mind-altering substances, there are other thing to marvel on. Acting is beyond flawless - both Johnny and Benicio were born for it (I don't get why Benicio was criticized for his acting - the complex guy is played superbly).
Visual representation is breathtaking, in many ways thanx to Terry Gilliam - for me this is the pinnacle of his career. He managed to get so much spirit of the book and atmosphere of those times into it... Countless little details lying here and there.
Frost's The Road Not Taken, originally written as a joke, is an easy frame to view my life, imho
"And indeed, that IS the question: whether to float with the tide, or to swim for a goal. " is just the choice Thompson postulates.
To me, I now believe the overarching purpose of life is to have children. Two distinct groups: those with children and those to help those with children.
Parenting (becoming a parent) puts a humans heartbeat into perspective like nothing else can
> To me, I now believe the overarching purpose of life is to have children. Two distinct groups: those with children and those to help those with children.
I reached the same conclusion myself very early on when it became very obvious that it's the most logical conclusion to reach based on the evidence we currently have about the "meaning of life". From a biological perspective, the meaning of life is to stay alive procreate. It sounds empty and ironically, a bit meaningless, but most of what we do in our lives that we find great joy in are rooted in these two very fundamental goals.
Every time we eat a delicious meal we're keeping ourselves alive. When we have great sex we're fulfilling our procreation desires. Even travel can be traced back to those two base desires because we've evolved to take great pleasure in exploring new worlds and relying on our wits to survive.
Now that I have two children of my own I'm more certain than ever that ultimately, it's what I am here to do. My life only has meaning insofar as my children's lives have meaning, and in that way I am fulfilling a centuries old promise to my ancestors who ultimately gave me life by living meaningful, fulfilled lives themselves.
I think Andrew's post hijacked this thread - not his fault.
You make a good point, but I would like to make it more broad. The purpose, the secret to life, and to fulfillment, is being of value to others. Children are just the most immediate, appropriate people to be of value to, and it's often in a service capacity.
I think becoming a parent is the most effective way to reset our own egos. I think being self-serving is built-in and there are all sorts of wonderful benefits to that evolutionary mechanism.
To Thompson's point, we are all just floating until we find a purpose. Floating has little value. So, it is worthwhile to adopt a purpose for the value that it provides. When that purpose ceases to provide value it should be abandoned in the most severe way possible. Through this process we have the potential to identify our character and our abilities.
And for those in and around Andrew's comments:
ful·fill·ment
fo͝olˈfilmənt
noun
1. satisfaction or happiness as a result of fully developing one's abilities or character.
And becoming a parent challenges me to figure out how to impart life lessons like these. I think it's best if I help her discover them and choose among them.
Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone
else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living
with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let
the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner
voice. And most important, have the courage to follow
your heart and intuition.
-- Steve Jobs
1. Hated working for others. One day manager refused to grant hike (in salary). Googled for a resignation letter, and mailed him the first one found.
2. Didn't know what to do. Decided to do freelancing. Took up a project that was too big for my mouth (read, implementing an ERP for a small retail chain) . Took away some good 2.5 years of my life, for peanuts. But learned a ton. The project was a failure from client's perspective, but I had my contractual obligations met.
learning - Freelancing is not my cup of tea
3. Started an e commerce company. Was one of the first companies in hyper local space. But had a similar feeling that this is not my cup tea, since it required raising large amount of capital for a poor margin business. Shut it down after 2 years.
Learning- I want to build something organically
4. Finally I stumbled upon a business which I truly love. It is yet to make any money. Have been toiling for the last 2 years. But I enjoyed the journey hell lot. And most importantly I feel I can make this work
5. So I took some 5 years to find that one thing that I really love doing, and that I am reasonably good at. Still the unproven part is whether there is a 'need' for that in the market, to make it economically viable.
6. Was it worth it? It was hell lot of pain. Getting depressed at times. But to me there was no choice. So no regrets. I would have done the same , if I were to go back and do. And hopefully we (me and my co founder) will make it.
Overall learning- You cannot discover yourself without getting lost. And getting lost is painful, at times, very very painful. But some pain are worth it (for some).
Whether to float or to swim is a hard choice. But if you decide to swim, make sure that 'to swim' is the only choice you have. Else you are more likely to 'get' back to 'float'.
I like Hunter's writings but I wouldn't look for coherent philosophical ideas in it. I see his writing as artistic, very entertaining, really unique phraseology, inspirational, stuff that really represents the feel of the 70's in US (at least that is what I am told, I wasn't born yet then).
> If you’re genuinely satisfied with what you are and what you’re doing, then give those books a wide berth. (Let sleeping dogs lie.)
I find myself doing this. Avoiding books that I think might upset my current reality for no apparent gain. It does make me feel intellectually dishonest, though. As in, I should be able to read anything and handle it rationally.
"As others have said, don't look for goals look for a lifestyle." is really bad advice.
A lifestyle merely describes and/or quantifies the way one lives.
I'm not sure how you get to this conclusion based on the post or the comments, and I am not sure what value it provides. I think this is the precise mode of conformity Thompson is railing against.
Currently, conformity is the common path, "the floating," Thompson describes. It seems to me the outliers with a purpose and the will to swim to their goals find fulfillment along the way.
"Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does…" — Jean Paul Sartre (Existentialist philosopher)
Following your passion[s] may or may not be bad advice but predicting the consequences of doing should be measured. Life has a way of making that self evident.
Is finding goal in life so hard and complicated? Why not settle with "do something that helps survive, expand and evolve human species"? Of course, the deeper question is why we want to do that? But until we figure that out, isn't that a worthy goal to pursue?
Such a different voice compared to his later work. It really drives home that HST, though seeming crazy, was fully conscious of what he was doing and intentional in his choices.
[+] [-] AndrewKemendo|9 years ago|reply
I didn't know what my Abilities were and how they relate to the others around me such that I can use them effectively.
Not only that I didn't even know what I desire aside from food and sex.
Luckily I was on a career trajectory and had quite a bit of experience ahead of me so I took solace in the idea that world travel, responsibilities etc... would flesh a lot of those abilities and desires things out for me.
It's been 13 years since, and I still have no idea where my Abilities lie or what I Desire aside from food and sex.
I like his suggestion to read Sartre, though I suggest Camus instead.
[+] [-] Fraterkes|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] toomim|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] keeganpoppen|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] giis|9 years ago|reply
I find this is quite new & profound.
[+] [-] putlake|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] visakanv|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jrcii|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unexistance|9 years ago|reply
Conformity
[+] [-] Toidiu|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fezzik|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jomamaxx|9 years ago|reply
See those kids you have? No, don't have a choice but to raise them to the best of your ability.
[+] [-] oasisbob|9 years ago|reply
Another quote, from the same, which I remember as vividly as (and juxtaposed with) this letter:
"Everybody is looking for someone who can stand up in the wind. It is lonely standing up and crowded lying down. I refuse to be an anchor for other people’s dreams—but then I refuse to anchor mine to anyone else."
* I wish my younger self knew the risk of loaning such a loved and personal book
[+] [-] NhanH|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fsiefken|9 years ago|reply
* S. Gröblacher, T. Paterek, R. Kaltenbaek, Č. Brukner, M. Żukowski, M. Aspelmeyer, and A. Zeilinger. An experimental test of non-local realism. Nature 446, 871–875 (2007) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v446/n7138/abs/nature05...
In minute 38 I ask the question if he can describe an example of finding meaning in life. https://youtu.be/D-EeF1quouY?t=2305
In one of his books he says the meaning of life is "about experiencing existence, in all its angles and glory, for the sheer and pure sake of experience itself! We don’t eat a nice meal, make love or travel to beautiful locations just to understand or make sense of something. We do these things because the experiences themselves imbue our lives with a kind of timeless meaning, independent of comprehension." -- Kastrup, Bernardo. More Than Allegory: On Religious Myth, Truth And Belief (p 203). John Hunt Publishing.
Ask yourself the right question in the moment itself, fully aware of your emotions and the things around you, and the answers could rise up automatically - 'the meaning of life' cannot be an armchair intellectual exercise he says. This has been my experience in life as well, it takes practise to get back to the Nexus. As Dr. Soran tells Picard: "They say time is the fire in which we burn. Right now, Captain, my time is running out. We leave so many things unfinished in our lives... I know you understand"
[+] [-] swombat|9 years ago|reply
That's an interesting perspective, but, let me poke at it bit.
If you were to be able to experience all those things you describe but had no one to share them with, would they have meaning? What if you were in a simulation so that it seemed like you were doing all these things with other people, but you knew that you are in a simulation all alone? Would these things still have meaning? Would the experience be worthwhile?
I would suggest that whilst they may still be somewhat worthwhile, without other people to share those experiences with, without a public sphere within which to express your unique and distinct story to the rest of humanity, life becomes significantly less meaningful.
To build meaning, we need both the private experiences you describe and the existence of others who can bear witness to our lives and give it an existence outside of our own minds. Yes, the experiences are valuable but they become exponentially more so when they are part of the story of our lives, communicated to our equals.
[+] [-] e15ctr0n|9 years ago|reply
* Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (1998) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120669/
* The Rum Diary (2011) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0376136/
If you are not already a fan of Johnny Depp, these movies should do it.
[+] [-] pimeys|9 years ago|reply
* Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72 (1973) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Loathing_on_the_Campa...
* Hell's Angels: The Strange and Terrible Saga of the Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs (1967) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%27s_Angels:_The_Strange_a...
His ability to just push himself into the situations and into what he was writing was outstanding. He saw and he wrote, one of the best writers from U.S.
[+] [-] saiya-jin|9 years ago|reply
Visual representation is breathtaking, in many ways thanx to Terry Gilliam - for me this is the pinnacle of his career. He managed to get so much spirit of the book and atmosphere of those times into it... Countless little details lying here and there.
[+] [-] amasad|9 years ago|reply
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081748/
[+] [-] digi_owl|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kosei|9 years ago|reply
"a man who procrastinates in his CHOOSING will inevitably have his choice made for him by circumstance."
So very true.
[+] [-] losteverything|9 years ago|reply
"And indeed, that IS the question: whether to float with the tide, or to swim for a goal. " is just the choice Thompson postulates.
To me, I now believe the overarching purpose of life is to have children. Two distinct groups: those with children and those to help those with children.
Parenting (becoming a parent) puts a humans heartbeat into perspective like nothing else can
[+] [-] marknutter|9 years ago|reply
I reached the same conclusion myself very early on when it became very obvious that it's the most logical conclusion to reach based on the evidence we currently have about the "meaning of life". From a biological perspective, the meaning of life is to stay alive procreate. It sounds empty and ironically, a bit meaningless, but most of what we do in our lives that we find great joy in are rooted in these two very fundamental goals.
Every time we eat a delicious meal we're keeping ourselves alive. When we have great sex we're fulfilling our procreation desires. Even travel can be traced back to those two base desires because we've evolved to take great pleasure in exploring new worlds and relying on our wits to survive.
Now that I have two children of my own I'm more certain than ever that ultimately, it's what I am here to do. My life only has meaning insofar as my children's lives have meaning, and in that way I am fulfilling a centuries old promise to my ancestors who ultimately gave me life by living meaningful, fulfilled lives themselves.
[+] [-] endswapper|9 years ago|reply
You make a good point, but I would like to make it more broad. The purpose, the secret to life, and to fulfillment, is being of value to others. Children are just the most immediate, appropriate people to be of value to, and it's often in a service capacity.
I think becoming a parent is the most effective way to reset our own egos. I think being self-serving is built-in and there are all sorts of wonderful benefits to that evolutionary mechanism.
To Thompson's point, we are all just floating until we find a purpose. Floating has little value. So, it is worthwhile to adopt a purpose for the value that it provides. When that purpose ceases to provide value it should be abandoned in the most severe way possible. Through this process we have the potential to identify our character and our abilities.
And for those in and around Andrew's comments: ful·fill·ment fo͝olˈfilmənt noun 1. satisfaction or happiness as a result of fully developing one's abilities or character.
[+] [-] njloof|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tadlos|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sundarurfriend|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ioda|9 years ago|reply
1. Hated working for others. One day manager refused to grant hike (in salary). Googled for a resignation letter, and mailed him the first one found.
2. Didn't know what to do. Decided to do freelancing. Took up a project that was too big for my mouth (read, implementing an ERP for a small retail chain) . Took away some good 2.5 years of my life, for peanuts. But learned a ton. The project was a failure from client's perspective, but I had my contractual obligations met.
learning - Freelancing is not my cup of tea
3. Started an e commerce company. Was one of the first companies in hyper local space. But had a similar feeling that this is not my cup tea, since it required raising large amount of capital for a poor margin business. Shut it down after 2 years.
Learning- I want to build something organically
4. Finally I stumbled upon a business which I truly love. It is yet to make any money. Have been toiling for the last 2 years. But I enjoyed the journey hell lot. And most importantly I feel I can make this work
5. So I took some 5 years to find that one thing that I really love doing, and that I am reasonably good at. Still the unproven part is whether there is a 'need' for that in the market, to make it economically viable.
6. Was it worth it? It was hell lot of pain. Getting depressed at times. But to me there was no choice. So no regrets. I would have done the same , if I were to go back and do. And hopefully we (me and my co founder) will make it.
Overall learning- You cannot discover yourself without getting lost. And getting lost is painful, at times, very very painful. But some pain are worth it (for some).
Whether to float or to swim is a hard choice. But if you decide to swim, make sure that 'to swim' is the only choice you have. Else you are more likely to 'get' back to 'float'.
[+] [-] Chris2048|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rdtsc|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] terryf|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GarvielLoken|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SanderMak|9 years ago|reply
I find myself doing this. Avoiding books that I think might upset my current reality for no apparent gain. It does make me feel intellectually dishonest, though. As in, I should be able to read anything and handle it rationally.
[+] [-] marcosdumay|9 years ago|reply
You are not a robot. That belief is intellectually dishonest, and is only there because of ego.
[+] [-] randomsearch|9 years ago|reply
Understanding how best to live your life is a gradual learning process and is not really so complicated.
The school of life video on it is 60 seconds and covers the basics:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iUdhJ_S_z3w
[+] [-] endswapper|9 years ago|reply
A lifestyle merely describes and/or quantifies the way one lives.
I'm not sure how you get to this conclusion based on the post or the comments, and I am not sure what value it provides. I think this is the precise mode of conformity Thompson is railing against.
Currently, conformity is the common path, "the floating," Thompson describes. It seems to me the outliers with a purpose and the will to swim to their goals find fulfillment along the way.
[+] [-] Paul_S|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SCAQTony|9 years ago|reply
Following your passion[s] may or may not be bad advice but predicting the consequences of doing should be measured. Life has a way of making that self evident.
[+] [-] sytelus|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bbcbasic|9 years ago|reply
Sex?
[+] [-] louprado|9 years ago|reply
So says every philosopher that ever lived.
[+] [-] nasakin|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 323454|9 years ago|reply