A reduction in the bribe amount bureaucrats are willing to pay for the right to receive bribes themselves would be a great indicator of success.
As an aside, I'm an American who worked last week in the US with a guy from my company's Indian office. Because India apparently has high import duties on watches, he decided this trip would be a good opportunity to purchase a watch for his wife. When he asked me where to to to buy a Swiss Army watch, I suggested Amazon.com. I'm a Prime member and offered to use my account so he could get free 2nd day shipping. I ordered the watch while he observed. "That's all you had to do?" I hadn't even used 1-click! When it shipped, I emailed him the tracking number. Over the next couple of days, he checked UPS.com in semi-disbelief and seemed amazed when the watch showed up as expected.
Apparently, according to my co-worker, there's little online purchasing of physical goods in India. While credit cards are becoming increasingly common, delivery systems are seen as too corrupt to be trusted. "You'll order a watch, but only an empty box will be delivered." It probably also doesn't help that a product purchased by a middle-class Indian might be worth months of lower-class wages.
It's the hidden, non-physical infrastructure that's so important. Layers and layers of laws, enforcement, responsible government, etc. are required to produce a system where an expensive item can be delivered to my house reliably.
Sorry, that's just wrong. Delivery systems in India are pretty good in most cities and online stores are a dime a dozen (nothing as dominant as Amazon however). There are even sites which deliver direct from the US (pretty much everything available there). Online payment systems are actually more advanced than in the US.
The real reason is due to a penny-pincher mentality. Even young highly educated people with well paying jobs tend to forego internet connectivity at home and scrounge about in internet cafés or libraries. The value and productivity gains of access is completely discounted. Laptops are still considered luxury items for the elite. Folks here consider actually paying for shipping to be stupid and will spend entire an afternoon walking about in the sun shopping for second-hand books at road-side stalls etc in lieu of forking out hard earned cash just for convenience.
What that guy said is true. Indian customs is terrible. And tracking anything in India is a crazy challenge - that includes people as well.
The biggest thing that pisses me off every time I travel there is the inter-state crossings where you have to pay a small "toll." Nothing like your 50¢ auto-vending one.
The most interesting bribe chain is perhaps the driver license (DMV) anything. The bribes for those are so bad that a significant percentage of drivers even avoid getting a license. And if you are getting a car license, you will most likely need a broker - as in you would need to learn to drive from a "driving school," which will broker for your license at a "fee." The best/sad part is that upon bribery you don't even have to drive to pass the test. Of course, this may not be everywhere, but just speaking from observation.
As about bribery punishment, there have been literally thousands of movies with the theme.
Edit: I'm asking a serious question here - the article itself mentions that the poorest people aren't able to get access to birth certificates or get their home connected to municipal water unless they pay bribes they can't afford. This seems pretty brazenly criminal to me. And the death penalty is legal. So...
Maybe a naive question - how hard would be to just have the government announce they're going to hang anyone who asks for a bribe, then make a big show about hanging 100 corrupt bureaucrats? Wouldn't that drastically cut corruption down?
how hard would be to just have the government announce they're going to hang anyone who asks for a bribe, then make a big show about hanging 100 corrupt bureaucrats? Wouldn't that drastically cut corruption down?
Thanks for asking a specific factual question. The policy you mention has not worked in China, where it is widely seen as a way to kill off lower-level officials who are insufficiently cooperative with the highest-level officials. China regularly has publicly announced executions for corruption, but it still has pervasive corruption.
It would reduce corruption - temporarily, at least, even though the killings would probably end up being very political (a bad thing! Consider how many would take it as a chance to get rid of their enemies). It would also scare bunches of people, and corruption would merely go underground as long as the hangings were enforced, before reappearing when enforcement slips. Not to mention the difficulties with getting the government - assumed to be filled with corruption - to do it. It is basically infinitely easier to educate the populace, make them refuse to give bribes when asked, and give them a way of responding to bribes which both refuses to do so, lets them feel part of an anti-bribe community, and reminds the officials that bribes are illegal.
Also, I doubt that anyone would argue that murdering anyone who asks for a bribe is better than eliminating the environment which makes people feel like they can ask for bribes.
How will you pick the 100 corrupt bureaucrats? By lottery or by targeting your political enemies? Would you really hang your nephew's corrupt best friend, or would you target the guy most likely to be challenge to your party in the next local election (despite his crimes being relatively minor)? The end result wouldn't be a cut down in corruption, it would just make the corrupt more careful about covering their backs.
I think punitive measures generally do not work. What is great about this is that it breaks someones sub-conscience, snaps them out of their behavior (hopefully), at the very moment of corruption.
Capital punishment, though legal, has been reserved for the ["rarest of the rare"](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_India#Law) cases by the Supreme Court of India. There have been instances when even serial killers have been pardoned. So it may not even be legally possible to pass such a law.
While hanging out on LiveJournal's Bangalore forum, I've read several stories that make me think even the threat of legal prosecution in India can be mostly meaningless, with people taking years just to get a trial, and afterwards waiting years before there is a spot in prison for them.
Again, I'm finding that SearchYC recently is better at finding articles on the same subject (this earlier one from a different source) than a site-restricted Google search is.
There are both low-level and high-level corruption. Low-level corruption is the naive version that is handing over actual notes to officials to have small things get through the system. High-level corruption is a lot more subtle and transparent than asking for tea money, circling around anywhere where any people have some political power. The high-level kind of corruption is firmly rooted in western countries as well.
It might actually be easier to fight the low-level corruption because the tea money is clearly and undeniably out there, and such blatant bribery is easy to judge. On the other hand the high-level corruption isn't supposed to even exist. The status quo will tell us that there's very limited corruption in many western countries. Further, no physical notes ever change owners but instead agreements, benefits, rewards, slices of power, changes of opinion, and political agendas get from one side to the other.
And all that can be put under the cover of public relations as usual. It's just public relations between those who have money and an agenda and those who have political or journalistic or whatever power. Seemingly everything is immaculate. In reality, it's as dirty as it can be.
The best part about this is that you don't have to go find someone to get these notes. If you have a printer, you can just print them out yourself, how many ever you may want. I'm a bit sceptical of all the success stories though. I'm going to try this with the local traffic policeman the next time he pulls me up, and check his reaction.
[+] [-] ShabbyDoo|16 years ago|reply
As an aside, I'm an American who worked last week in the US with a guy from my company's Indian office. Because India apparently has high import duties on watches, he decided this trip would be a good opportunity to purchase a watch for his wife. When he asked me where to to to buy a Swiss Army watch, I suggested Amazon.com. I'm a Prime member and offered to use my account so he could get free 2nd day shipping. I ordered the watch while he observed. "That's all you had to do?" I hadn't even used 1-click! When it shipped, I emailed him the tracking number. Over the next couple of days, he checked UPS.com in semi-disbelief and seemed amazed when the watch showed up as expected.
Apparently, according to my co-worker, there's little online purchasing of physical goods in India. While credit cards are becoming increasingly common, delivery systems are seen as too corrupt to be trusted. "You'll order a watch, but only an empty box will be delivered." It probably also doesn't help that a product purchased by a middle-class Indian might be worth months of lower-class wages.
It's the hidden, non-physical infrastructure that's so important. Layers and layers of laws, enforcement, responsible government, etc. are required to produce a system where an expensive item can be delivered to my house reliably.
[+] [-] ahk|16 years ago|reply
The real reason is due to a penny-pincher mentality. Even young highly educated people with well paying jobs tend to forego internet connectivity at home and scrounge about in internet cafés or libraries. The value and productivity gains of access is completely discounted. Laptops are still considered luxury items for the elite. Folks here consider actually paying for shipping to be stupid and will spend entire an afternoon walking about in the sun shopping for second-hand books at road-side stalls etc in lieu of forking out hard earned cash just for convenience.
[+] [-] samratjp|16 years ago|reply
The biggest thing that pisses me off every time I travel there is the inter-state crossings where you have to pay a small "toll." Nothing like your 50¢ auto-vending one.
The most interesting bribe chain is perhaps the driver license (DMV) anything. The bribes for those are so bad that a significant percentage of drivers even avoid getting a license. And if you are getting a car license, you will most likely need a broker - as in you would need to learn to drive from a "driving school," which will broker for your license at a "fee." The best/sad part is that upon bribery you don't even have to drive to pass the test. Of course, this may not be everywhere, but just speaking from observation.
As about bribery punishment, there have been literally thousands of movies with the theme.
[+] [-] lionhearted|16 years ago|reply
Maybe a naive question - how hard would be to just have the government announce they're going to hang anyone who asks for a bribe, then make a big show about hanging 100 corrupt bureaucrats? Wouldn't that drastically cut corruption down?
[+] [-] tokenadult|16 years ago|reply
Thanks for asking a specific factual question. The policy you mention has not worked in China, where it is widely seen as a way to kill off lower-level officials who are insufficiently cooperative with the highest-level officials. China regularly has publicly announced executions for corruption, but it still has pervasive corruption.
[+] [-] sorbus|16 years ago|reply
Also, I doubt that anyone would argue that murdering anyone who asks for a bribe is better than eliminating the environment which makes people feel like they can ask for bribes.
[+] [-] dagw|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rjb|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nikhilgk|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] netcan|16 years ago|reply
catching 100,000 corrupt officials and putting them in jail for 6 months after a hefty fine and loss of position would probably work better.
[+] [-] known|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sarvesh|16 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dnsworks|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tokenadult|16 years ago|reply
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1077548
Again, I'm finding that SearchYC recently is better at finding articles on the same subject (this earlier one from a different source) than a site-restricted Google search is.
[+] [-] yason|16 years ago|reply
It might actually be easier to fight the low-level corruption because the tea money is clearly and undeniably out there, and such blatant bribery is easy to judge. On the other hand the high-level corruption isn't supposed to even exist. The status quo will tell us that there's very limited corruption in many western countries. Further, no physical notes ever change owners but instead agreements, benefits, rewards, slices of power, changes of opinion, and political agendas get from one side to the other.
And all that can be put under the cover of public relations as usual. It's just public relations between those who have money and an agenda and those who have political or journalistic or whatever power. Seemingly everything is immaculate. In reality, it's as dirty as it can be.
[+] [-] chaosprophet|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dustingetz|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] by|16 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Satyagraha
where many small acts of non-violent protest brought about great change.
[+] [-] kingsley_20|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DennisP|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FraaJad|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samratjp|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] motters|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rao|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cianestro|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dnsworks|16 years ago|reply