Daniel Tunkelang, the advisor mentioned, is trying to find new homes for the Python developers, so they don't get kicked out of the country. Message him if you're hiring.
In fact unless a court decision is made I think it technically unfair to the company and their employee the way the mob has brought out their pichfork.
We have only heard the story from one person - and it makes the company and its CEO look like Satan's spawns - which in my experience never is 100% true.
Having said that, I am always a little unnerved browsing LinkedIn - you have CEOs, CFOs, Management always complaining about their employees, and employees doing cringy asskissing :( It makes me deeply sad what LinkedIn has turned into, LinkedIn just gives employers more power.
On the other hand I have noticed that HN, reddit are places where Labour ( employees ) come to complain.
Its just an interesting trend where two social networks exists - one for the capitalists and one for labor.
We have now heard one story from one person and read corroboration of that story from a professional news organization along with some new information in the form of interviews and requests for comment from the principals involved. That isn't "doxxing", it's news.
I use both LinkedIn and HN quite a lot and don't really see what you mean about the capital/ labor split between the sites, for what it's worth.
We actually have heard at least a bit from the other party, e.g. "she's a disgruntled employee who was fired for cause". In any case, if it's the CEO of a company we haven't heard from on a major issue like this, that's most likely the CEOs fault, most likely because they have nothing constructive to say.
Also, I find your characterization of HN as a labor forum as opposed to capitalist rather curious, since its origin lies with one of the purest forms of capitalism possible, startups.
I was concerned about the doxxing at the beginning. But now it's looking like getting the attention of an Internet mob was basically the only option for justice that Penny had left. (I wish I had more faith in the corporate legal system than this.)
It's not just one person. We have now had the story largely confirmed by WrkRiot's CTO (maybe I should say "former CTO", or maybe the entire company is effectively "former") and one of its former advisors.
The CTO of that company made a public comment on the Hacker News thread backing up her story... It should confirm that her perspective isn't just a rant. It's actually true.
I don't think that naming the name of the company involved was doxxing. I think of doxxing as getting personal information to use in coordinated harassment of an individual. To the degree that occurred, I think it's unfortunate. (And I imagine it did occur).
I found Penny's story very believable and felt really bad for many of the individuals involved (the H1-B workers most of all). There was probably a lot of professional pressure on Penny not to be seen as a troublemaker and not to name the company's name. There is a definite information asymmetry between management and workers and I feel like wrkriot was using that to exploit their employee's trust.
It seems fair to out them for that so they can't just change their name and do it again (which was clearly a pattern). Had they not been mostly a fraud, they might have been able to provide a reasonable defense against the story. Had the fraud continued, in order to protect innocent employees, it most likely would have just hurt more people.
It's definitely not black and white but I don't think we harassed them out of business either. It was definitely all about to fall apart regardless.
Not only LinkedIn, same goes for Glassdoor too. I have seen Glassdoor deleting 1-2 year old reviews after promising that employers can't change the behavior.
The difference lies in how to grow your business. LinkedIn and Glassdoor cannot ask employees to pay them for being fair but can ask employers to pay them for deleting/managing the image of the company.
Anyone who think this isn't doxxing go have a look at Twitter, Reddit and even some of HN on how some employees who had nothing to do with the fraud have been treated.
On what was basically a junior employee not being compatible with their boss.
Which adults know is definitely two sided when one person tells the story (and normal).
My money is on this being a Visa scam company bringing Chinese nationals over. The poorer ones probably got screwed, while the ones who paid (400k from one of his employees???) have probably vanished into the country.
(I have nothing against the Chinese, or immigrants in general, I'm an immigrant myself, and I feel terrible for the innocent victims who have lost money, jobs, and for many, their american dream)
The only thing that makes no sense is why they hired Penny Kim. The business was seemingly imaginary, the only employees were the CEO's bros and his H1Bs. If the business was some sort of front, why hire a veteran marketing leader to publicize your scam operation? Especially someone who was not in on the scam and was highly likely to rebel? My money is on the CEO being a genuine egomaniac who thought he could will a legitimate business into existence with enough personal charm.
They did have a room full of H1B visa holders doing the tech. It sounds like those guys got scammed hardest just on the face of it, it'd be awful if they also got scammed out of money for visas.
This seemed pretty likely to me the second I saw bouncing between tech/analyst positions and "CEO of mines in Asia and South America" on his LinkedIn (when he was mid-thirties at the latest?). There is only so far one can push it before all thered flags go up.
This reminds me of my last job, where the karma gods smiled upon me and not so much for another guy.
I've always written my resume somewhat uniquely for SEO[1] and happen to work quite heavily in the Linux space. At the time several years ago, my resume was on the first or second page google search results for something along the lines of "linux system administrator" and variations.
The stars must have aligned as some poor schmuck thought he'd spruce up his resume by copy & pasting lines verbatim from the first 4-5 good Linux resumes he found via google. Unfortunately for him, one of them was mine. Also unfortunately for him, I'm known as a very technical interviewer that doesn't take any bs.
So besides the fact he wasn't qualified from a technical perspective for this position, I decided to see what he'd do. I stopped him mid interview and pulled up my resume on my phone. I handed it to him and asked him to read a few lines. Then I asked him to read a few lines that were verbatim from his resume. His face lost all color and he shuddered. There is simply no way I was buying that he and I both came up with the following 3 lines in a row:
* Re-implemented the global dns/ldap setup for higher availability. Used keepalived for auto-failover
* High performance computing, benchmarking, and kernel tuning. Constant review of upstream kernel activity
* Maintenance and engineering on a from scratch Linux distribution in support of high volume electronic trading
Amongst two or three additional ones, it was too much of a cooincidence. He swore that the recruiter had doctored his resume and that the recruiter was a liar. I gave him a shot at doing tech for the rest of the interview. However, I turned it up to 11 and was visibly agitated at this point that he'd stolen from my work trying to market myself. Now I'm normally extremely friendly in interviews, but teched him so hard it hurt my brain. He failed miserably.
We told his recruiter the story and said if it was true we were going to immediately stop doing business with that recruiter and his company. He quickly and happily forwarded us every single email from that candidate clearly showing they'd done nothing other than rearrange the styling and put their awful logo on it. The recruiter decided to stop working with this candidate as well.
Moral of the story: Don't steal people's resume, they work hard making it and that is dishonest. Don't lie to technical people about your technical skills. It will ruin your future career prospects.
Gold rushes bring in the fraudsters. @honkhonkpants response, I take it tongue in cheek. Born and raised here. There is a lot of good that does happen, the Valley used to be more balanced (tech, manufacturing, ag, etc)...
In the 10+ companies I've been at, I could see one as having been fraudulent, that was mostly at the non-founder level pushing work overseas for kickbacks. His career has since stalled.
When things are easy and fast and loose, study the gold rush or any other similar history, these things will happen. Today, it's sad that those backing people like this don't use all the tools at their disposal to do deep do diligence. It seems like if you tell the right story, have people skills, and the surface isn't scratched, you can end up with a seed round that isn't warranted.
I guess you fake it until you make it? Obviously not the same thing but when reddit originally started didn't the founders use bots to submit stories. Theros got billions. Kind of sucks for the H1Bs they might lose their visa.
"Fake it 'til you make it" is more about pretending to have confidence before you really have it and less about falsifying your past in a way that's easy for someone to fact check.
Yeah, I imagine he was hoping investor / VC money would come through and it would all be good. The faking wire transfers thing was weird though - he would have been better off just saying they were out of cash and trying to raise some.
From what I have read on Kim's blog and other articles, this appears to be more a case of the CEO Choi being an immature and incompetent individual who started out to earn some big bucks but couldn't handle failures and ended up creating one fraud after another. To me it doesnt look like he started the company with the intention of committing some grand scam.
It's really sad. I grew up in the Bay Area and felt like the propensity for fraud was very low if not non-existent. I guess it's not like that anymore or maybe it never was and I've been lucky to work for and with people who don't commit fraud.
There's no chinese firm. It's chinese students with OPT visas who needed sponsors to get into the H1B lottery and now they risk getting deported if they don't find another sponsor within 90 days (probably less since they used some of the clock to find this current position)
I'm curious - did NYTimes amend the title of their article? I'm asking because the title of this post on HN doesn't correspond to the title on NYTimes and I was under the impression the submission guideline here says to use the 'original title'. In addition, I read the NYTimes article before I saw this posting on HN and while the NYTimes article questioned 3 items on his resume, I can't conclude his entire resume is fraudulent since the article neither contained the full resume nor did it list all the companies/schools on his resume.
It looks to me like the submitter broke the HN guidelines by rewriting the title when it was neither misleading nor linkbait. (The submitted title was "WrkRiot CEO's entire resume fraudulent", and we've since changed it to the NYT headline.) Not 100% sure, though, because NYT has a habit of changing its headlines.
Submitters: "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait" is one of the site rules here. Please follow it, and especially please don't rewrite titles to make them more dramatic.
lol, wut? Anybody who has been here more than an hour is who expects fraud in SV. The first job I had in SV ended in a joint SEC/DOJ prosecution and jail time for multiple executive officers. Lawlessness, scams, and dishonesty are endemic in this area.
> Lawlessness, scams, and dishonesty are endemic in this area.
And homelessness. I was disappointed to see hundreds of helpless homeless people, some in horrible mental state, right there on streets in the middle of huge ivory towers that SV thumps its chest on. It's such a shame!
And with young kids coming out of those glass doors flashing gadgets and gizmos at each other, with that certain bay area flair … I mean the collective blindness of the place felt only surreal.
It's a personal thing but I guess my family will never be at home in the bay area.
The interesting part is that the technology exists to better vet and monitor investments. For example, why don't startup-friendly banks offer authorized investors read-only access to bank accounts, and maybe an investor alert service that notifies them whenever a charge/check of more than $X posts to the company bank account or credit card, or when a wire goes out, etc? Most types of fraud are absurdly easy to spot; the tools and the will to spot them just aren't very strong atm.
All: please don't post, and do flag, comments that publish identifying personal details on others in the context of attacks on them. (Especially when they're newly-christened public enemies.) Maybe someone has done bad things; reacting to that by becoming a mob is also a bad thing, and we don't want it here.
[+] [-] calcsam|9 years ago|reply
https://twitter.com/dtunkelang/status/771148199427989505
[+] [-] wrong_variable|9 years ago|reply
In fact unless a court decision is made I think it technically unfair to the company and their employee the way the mob has brought out their pichfork.
We have only heard the story from one person - and it makes the company and its CEO look like Satan's spawns - which in my experience never is 100% true.
Having said that, I am always a little unnerved browsing LinkedIn - you have CEOs, CFOs, Management always complaining about their employees, and employees doing cringy asskissing :( It makes me deeply sad what LinkedIn has turned into, LinkedIn just gives employers more power.
On the other hand I have noticed that HN, reddit are places where Labour ( employees ) come to complain.
Its just an interesting trend where two social networks exists - one for the capitalists and one for labor.
[+] [-] sanderjd|9 years ago|reply
I use both LinkedIn and HN quite a lot and don't really see what you mean about the capital/ labor split between the sites, for what it's worth.
[+] [-] andrewflnr|9 years ago|reply
Also, I find your characterization of HN as a labor forum as opposed to capitalist rather curious, since its origin lies with one of the purest forms of capitalism possible, startups.
[+] [-] rspeer|9 years ago|reply
It's not just one person. We have now had the story largely confirmed by WrkRiot's CTO (maybe I should say "former CTO", or maybe the entire company is effectively "former") and one of its former advisors.
[+] [-] m0nty|9 years ago|reply
Or "investigative journalism", as it used to be known. This is what the press is for. If they're wrong, I don't doubt it will end in litigation.
[+] [-] eropple|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mugenjin9|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pkaye|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lemonghost|9 years ago|reply
I found Penny's story very believable and felt really bad for many of the individuals involved (the H1-B workers most of all). There was probably a lot of professional pressure on Penny not to be seen as a troublemaker and not to name the company's name. There is a definite information asymmetry between management and workers and I feel like wrkriot was using that to exploit their employee's trust.
It seems fair to out them for that so they can't just change their name and do it again (which was clearly a pattern). Had they not been mostly a fraud, they might have been able to provide a reasonable defense against the story. Had the fraud continued, in order to protect innocent employees, it most likely would have just hurt more people.
It's definitely not black and white but I don't think we harassed them out of business either. It was definitely all about to fall apart regardless.
[+] [-] thisisit|9 years ago|reply
The difference lies in how to grow your business. LinkedIn and Glassdoor cannot ask employees to pay them for being fair but can ask employers to pay them for deleting/managing the image of the company.
[+] [-] maverick_iceman|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aaron695|9 years ago|reply
Anyone who think this isn't doxxing go have a look at Twitter, Reddit and even some of HN on how some employees who had nothing to do with the fraud have been treated.
On what was basically a junior employee not being compatible with their boss.
Which adults know is definitely two sided when one person tells the story (and normal).
[+] [-] scott_s|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaawweay|9 years ago|reply
(I have nothing against the Chinese, or immigrants in general, I'm an immigrant myself, and I feel terrible for the innocent victims who have lost money, jobs, and for many, their american dream)
[+] [-] tootie|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] taneq|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paulcole|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eropple|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SEJeff|9 years ago|reply
I've always written my resume somewhat uniquely for SEO[1] and happen to work quite heavily in the Linux space. At the time several years ago, my resume was on the first or second page google search results for something along the lines of "linux system administrator" and variations.
The stars must have aligned as some poor schmuck thought he'd spruce up his resume by copy & pasting lines verbatim from the first 4-5 good Linux resumes he found via google. Unfortunately for him, one of them was mine. Also unfortunately for him, I'm known as a very technical interviewer that doesn't take any bs.
So besides the fact he wasn't qualified from a technical perspective for this position, I decided to see what he'd do. I stopped him mid interview and pulled up my resume on my phone. I handed it to him and asked him to read a few lines. Then I asked him to read a few lines that were verbatim from his resume. His face lost all color and he shuddered. There is simply no way I was buying that he and I both came up with the following 3 lines in a row:
Amongst two or three additional ones, it was too much of a cooincidence. He swore that the recruiter had doctored his resume and that the recruiter was a liar. I gave him a shot at doing tech for the rest of the interview. However, I turned it up to 11 and was visibly agitated at this point that he'd stolen from my work trying to market myself. Now I'm normally extremely friendly in interviews, but teched him so hard it hurt my brain. He failed miserably.We told his recruiter the story and said if it was true we were going to immediately stop doing business with that recruiter and his company. He quickly and happily forwarded us every single email from that candidate clearly showing they'd done nothing other than rearrange the styling and put their awful logo on it. The recruiter decided to stop working with this candidate as well.
Moral of the story: Don't steal people's resume, they work hard making it and that is dishonest. Don't lie to technical people about your technical skills. It will ruin your future career prospects.
[1] http://www.digitalprognosis.com/resume.htm
[+] [-] smb06|9 years ago|reply
Now it seems like the CEO faked his past work experience as well.
[+] [-] jmspring|9 years ago|reply
In the 10+ companies I've been at, I could see one as having been fraudulent, that was mostly at the non-founder level pushing work overseas for kickbacks. His career has since stalled.
When things are easy and fast and loose, study the gold rush or any other similar history, these things will happen. Today, it's sad that those backing people like this don't use all the tools at their disposal to do deep do diligence. It seems like if you tell the right story, have people skills, and the surface isn't scratched, you can end up with a seed round that isn't warranted.
[+] [-] samfisher83|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] uberdog|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tim333|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] winteriscoming|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brockhaywood|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zaidf|9 years ago|reply
Somewhat misleading title. The article itself only mentions the resume once. For example, it doesn't provide examples of the fabrication.
If you read the original post. there is little new info. aside from revealed identities.
[+] [-] Dramatize|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] manigandham|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hkmurakami|9 years ago|reply
Sad.
[+] [-] vinayan3|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tptacek|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joshmn|9 years ago|reply
If anyone has any leads/ideas, I'd love to hear them. Again, just incredibly curious.
[+] [-] readitmeow|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NearAP|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dang|9 years ago|reply
Submitters: "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait" is one of the site rules here. Please follow it, and especially please don't rewrite titles to make them more dramatic.
[+] [-] honkhonkpants|9 years ago|reply
lol, wut? Anybody who has been here more than an hour is who expects fraud in SV. The first job I had in SV ended in a joint SEC/DOJ prosecution and jail time for multiple executive officers. Lawlessness, scams, and dishonesty are endemic in this area.
[+] [-] marvindanig|9 years ago|reply
And homelessness. I was disappointed to see hundreds of helpless homeless people, some in horrible mental state, right there on streets in the middle of huge ivory towers that SV thumps its chest on. It's such a shame!
And with young kids coming out of those glass doors flashing gadgets and gizmos at each other, with that certain bay area flair … I mean the collective blindness of the place felt only surreal.
It's a personal thing but I guess my family will never be at home in the bay area.
[+] [-] downandout|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chenster|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dang|9 years ago|reply
All: please don't post, and do flag, comments that publish identifying personal details on others in the context of attacks on them. (Especially when they're newly-christened public enemies.) Maybe someone has done bad things; reacting to that by becoming a mob is also a bad thing, and we don't want it here.
[+] [-] chrisper|9 years ago|reply
I'd ask for a refund from that Chinese scrubbing company
[+] [-] maverick_iceman|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 0xmohit|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] throwaway349000|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dang|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sunshinemafia|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] sunshinemafia|9 years ago|reply
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