I am not sure how I feel about this article. Either this article is way off base, or I am just an odd duck. Perhaps there is a cultural bias too (I am Indian).
Regardless, almost all of my close friends happen to be female, and I love the conversations! I love the discussions about their lives, about what's going on, how they are reacting to it. Not to mention that they think I have an empathetic ear, and occasionally come to me just to talk, if not to get some advice.
Even my conversations with my male friends almost never leads to sports or go off-base from the topic at hand. I prefer to listen to find out the crux of the issue, and never stop at the "Oh! That's too bad" as the article explains. If a friend of mine had lost a job or was having expecting a baby, assuming they are willing, I want to know how they are approaching it, what about it scares/motivates them the most, if they need some help etc.
That's not to say that there is no place to sit and talk technology or world politics with a couple of friends over a few beers, but that's not all I do. I agree with tokenadult - this article bears no semblance to me or most of my male friends.
I'll have to say this is probably cultural, and like most such things, is nowhere near globally true.
I can tell you though, from personal experience, most of my friendships with other guys, and their friendships with other guys, follow this pattern to the letter, particularly the "Gee, dude, that's too bad. Want us to deal you out this hand?" phenomenon.
That said, there's a lot of subtext that goes into a statement like that: it's not callous or cold or ignorant, rather, what it really says is "I really do feel bad for you, but we have an understanding that I know if I were in your position I'd probably rather be left alone so I'll do the same to you, but if you really do want to talk about it later you're welcome to (though we both know you probably won't)".
I've also noticed (with a few exceptions) that guys are generally a lot quicker to forgive each other after an argument. We'll argue more violently, sure, but there's a period of time, and usually a place, for airing one's grievances, and an understanding that afterward, we'd rather just both forgive each other so we can be friends again.
I think part of the problem is that this article doesn't recognize different categories of friends. The guys I play poker with or go out on a hike with aren't necessarily my closest friends. But there's other guys where we get together, typically one-on-one, and have serious discussions about our relationships, our kids, our fears and concerns in life.
(FWIW, my ex didn't really grasp this either: "Why do you need to go out with so and so tonight? You hang out with your friends at work every day")
Thank you for the perspective from a different culture.
I was struck by the articles "Oh! That's too bad" part too. If a close friend told me they were having a problem, I would want to know how I could help. If they were having serious health problems they may need some extra help with their "honey-do" list or someone to watch the kids so they can take their wife with them to the hospital. If they lost a job, maybe I know someone who is hiring. Etc...
Yes, if it is something I can't do anything about than offer sympathy, then they probably won't get too much more than a "that's too bad" from me and they may be better off talking to women close to them. But you often don't know what kind of advice or direct support your friend is capable of offering until you make your friends aware you have a problem. That is often why men I know share their problems, they are hoping for something useful even if they know the odds are low.
I know one guy who behaves like that. I found this out one day my wife was mad at me and I needed to talk to someone but he just pretended not to hear. I felt insulted until a mutual friend explained to me he always does this. Since then I have thought of him as an emotional cripple. This article actually makes me more tolerant. There are apparently many more guys like that out there, so many that it seems like another way of being normal.
I don't know how much of this is cultural. This friend obviously comes from the same culture as me. I'm swiss, so I would expect to have less in common with an indian than with someone from the wall street journal.
This article seems like it belongs on some sleazy askmen.com type of site rather than the WSJ.
There are a number of things wrong with the logic here. These are sweeping generalizations that in my experience don't come close to reality. If there is any truth to this, I could see it only existing in select situations as described in the article like poker night or going to a football game with a group of men. People behave differently in groups than they do in one on one situations.
Also, as raju mentioned, I'm sure that a good amount of this is cultural. Even within western culture there are vastly differing cultural groups. Generalizations like this simply don't work, and I think it's harmful to entertain "stories" like this.
It seems the article misses the point of outings with the boys. Men tend not to bring things up unless there is some discussion about how to fix it. 4 dudes can't fix someone's health problems, but they can go fishing, which at least makes the now pretty good, even though the immediate future might not be. Having good people around you reminds you that if you did come across something that could be fixed, the guy next to you in the fishing boat would help out.
Exactly! If the wife in the story wanted to know why her husband didn't talk about any of the various men's problems on their fishing trip, she could have just asked the rhetorical question "how would talking about the problem while fishing make the problem go away?"
I will talk to a friend about a problem only if they can help solve it. I have absolutely no desire to try to get empathy or sympathy.
Interesting that you should mention the "everything is a problem to be solved" point. I had always considered that to be just "an engineer thing," but now that I think about it, most of my male friends are engineers, and most of my engineer friends are male.
Also, are you implying that you'd like to work out a solution for your broken fishing boat? :)
It would be interesting to gather data on the subject, but it seems to be one of those commonly-understood truths. I suppose you could study it by showing men and women a pair of conversation transcripts about relationships, one of which accomplishes nothing, and one of which ends in a useful resolution ("I feel X," "That's terrible," versus "I feel X," "You should Y."). Then men and women could rate which conversation seemed better, according to a couple qualities.
This isn't a topic that a study or statistics would help illuminate at all. Some stories or arguments are best made with anecdote and example. Attempts to apply scientific methods to arguments like this usually just lead to bullshit studies like the one debunked here http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2232 and are even worse.
The sexist-yet-probably-true answer: because women are emotionally weak creatures who get upset over minor things and feel the need to share. Men are better at stoically shrugging off the minor problems of life.
Also, men are better at nonverbal communication. If a friend has good news or bad news it's sufficient for me to say "Hey, congrats!" or "Bummer, that sucks dude", and we both know exactly where we stand. There's no need to spend several thousand words on agreeing with each other on exactly how good or bad the news is.
edit: Also, men and women find different things interesting. Women are far more interested in "feelings" and "relationships" as complicated objects worthy of discussion, whereas men see them as simple things unworthy of too much brainpower and would much rather think about "things" or "ideas". This explains why groups of men and groups of women will choose to talk about the things they find interesting, and why many man-woman conversations are doomed to be deathly boring to one partner or the other.
I'm curious about how generalizable the male:female difference in "how" friendships differ is along that dimension, because the men featured in the article are unlike many men I know.
One study I read about described a situation where the researchers bundled the same baby up and told some people that it was a boy and others that it was a girl. The people who thought it was a girl tended to comfort the baby when it got fussy, and the people who thought it was a boy tended to try to distract it.[1] Subtle, but I can imagine that there are other ways that we train girls to be more 'face to face'.
I think "why" is largely rooted in the fact that women have babies (well, around 90% of them do, and some that don't adopt) and once you have a baby you need social support in a way a man does not. You either need a spouse making the lion's share of the money or you need family to turn to if there is no man around. Even in a worst case (or perhaps best case) scenario, you need daycare providers if nothing else. This reality seems to influence female behavior even before most women have children and definitely influences it afterwards, even if the woman was relatively independent and can-do prior to that. Social influence is primarily about catering to people's egos and emotions. So I think the fact that women need other people to help raise their kids tends to make them more attuned to the emotional stuff and make it loom larger in their eyes than it typically does for men.
"I've played poker with the same guys every Thursday night for 18 years. We rarely talk about our lives. We talk about cards, betting, bluffing."
The author obviously hasn't experienced a real close friendship with another male.
My close friends and I share a lot of our thoughts on life, our feelings, aspirations, we talk to each other about it, give each other advice, suggestions & support.
I feel bad for the author for not having experienced a true close friendship. He wanted an explanation why he didn't have a true close friend(s) like women do, but just couldn't admit it was him not having found a true friend; so he writes this article generalizing his situation to be a problem experienced by all males.
okay, sure, but my relationship with a girlfriend IS face-to-face (not side-by-side). it's not that we don't want intimacy, its just that if we're merely drinking buddies, I don't care. Maybe women have social pressure and upbringing that prompts them to pretend to care, or need to care out of being a socialite, and men don't face those pressures so just don't bother.
Men and women are different. They are, and there's nothing wrong with that. Different people fall at different points along their stereotype lines.
Where the difference can lead to conflict is when people on opposite sides of that difference don't notice or acknowledge it, and/or don't accept it. "How could you possibly think different from me?"
Anecdote of one: When my kid was four in pre-school their class played a game where they threw water balloons out on a measured field. Each time the balloon didn't break you threw again.
When the balloon broke you were to go stand at the side of the field, at the distance where your balloon broke, to mark your score.
All the boys stood proudly by their distances. All the girls clustered with the first girl at her score point.
There may be social pressure for men and women to act as their stereotypes, but I think it comes in part from actual differences.
I'm pretty terrified if there are men who only have shallow friendships like in the poker night example. It's true that probably only men are capable of such relationships, though.
Yes, I have those shallow friendships too but their purpose is to have fun. We talk about computers, photography, cars, stuff like that, and usually while doing something. However, if those were all I had I would feel really lonely.
For me, it's absolutely essential to have few (male) friends who are close and with whom I can talk about and reflect my life. I share things with my wife too but you can't share everything with one close person and you shouldn't. A wife equals not an amateur friend therapist. You might want to mention your fears and problems to her but you don't want to dwell in them with her.
I have a feminine side like every person, male or female, and I think it's hugely valuable to have a male guy or two who can respond to that, too. The feminine side is a much smaller part of me than my masculine side but it's still there and if I were to only acknowledge the latter, I would be missing quite a lot in life.
Life can rarely be solved, in the masculine problem-solving way; you can only live it. Pretty much all you can "solve" in your life is change your attitude, and in order to do that you have to recognize and acknowledge what part of you feels bad. Talking helps in that; in fact, trying to consider it a solvable problem and fix myself would only drive me further from the change I'm eventually going after.
But I sure like going karting racing with my friends or having beers and a few good problems to solve: that's fun! I just also acknowledge that it's only one part of me.
"'I wouldn't talk about my insecurities with the guys,' says Mr. Schulsinger, a consultant. 'All my real insecurities about work, finances, the kids those I share with my wife.'" - i.e., the wife bears it all, and the guys just have fun. Of course, the wife is usually uncredited for this work.
This is pretty true in general. Men go out and do the adventurous, more romantic type stuff. Women do the more mundane things back at home, basically ensuring everything holds together. Women tend to be the glue that holds society together and helps it function as an organic unit, men move society around.
Suddenly all those answer sites like Yahoo Answers, Answers.com, Mahalo Answers etc. seem very male oriented.
Though someone posting that their computer is broken only to receive answers like "yes, I'm listening" and "I understand" is probably not be that useful.
>Researchers say women's friendships are face to face: They talk, cry together, share secrets. Men's friendships are side by side: We play golf. We go to football games.
That mode of friendship sounds terrible to me. I'm male and I like to be active with my friends (biking, hiking, going to shows, etc...). However, talking about the important pieces of your life (the happy stuff, anxieties, depressing things, etc...) atop a mountain or over a beer are absolutely essential. I feel like the author is foolishly generalizing from his own social life. I would probably feel alienated and unsupported if I had friends like his.
There might be some good research behind this article, but the way the author says things destroys the point. He takes things to extremes (maybe to get a laugh?) which makes the whole article silly.
[+] [-] raju|16 years ago|reply
Regardless, almost all of my close friends happen to be female, and I love the conversations! I love the discussions about their lives, about what's going on, how they are reacting to it. Not to mention that they think I have an empathetic ear, and occasionally come to me just to talk, if not to get some advice.
Even my conversations with my male friends almost never leads to sports or go off-base from the topic at hand. I prefer to listen to find out the crux of the issue, and never stop at the "Oh! That's too bad" as the article explains. If a friend of mine had lost a job or was having expecting a baby, assuming they are willing, I want to know how they are approaching it, what about it scares/motivates them the most, if they need some help etc.
That's not to say that there is no place to sit and talk technology or world politics with a couple of friends over a few beers, but that's not all I do. I agree with tokenadult - this article bears no semblance to me or most of my male friends.
Could be just me though ;-)
[+] [-] leif|16 years ago|reply
I can tell you though, from personal experience, most of my friendships with other guys, and their friendships with other guys, follow this pattern to the letter, particularly the "Gee, dude, that's too bad. Want us to deal you out this hand?" phenomenon.
That said, there's a lot of subtext that goes into a statement like that: it's not callous or cold or ignorant, rather, what it really says is "I really do feel bad for you, but we have an understanding that I know if I were in your position I'd probably rather be left alone so I'll do the same to you, but if you really do want to talk about it later you're welcome to (though we both know you probably won't)".
I've also noticed (with a few exceptions) that guys are generally a lot quicker to forgive each other after an argument. We'll argue more violently, sure, but there's a period of time, and usually a place, for airing one's grievances, and an understanding that afterward, we'd rather just both forgive each other so we can be friends again.
[+] [-] kscaldef|16 years ago|reply
(FWIW, my ex didn't really grasp this either: "Why do you need to go out with so and so tonight? You hang out with your friends at work every day")
[+] [-] timwiseman|16 years ago|reply
I was struck by the articles "Oh! That's too bad" part too. If a close friend told me they were having a problem, I would want to know how I could help. If they were having serious health problems they may need some extra help with their "honey-do" list or someone to watch the kids so they can take their wife with them to the hospital. If they lost a job, maybe I know someone who is hiring. Etc...
Yes, if it is something I can't do anything about than offer sympathy, then they probably won't get too much more than a "that's too bad" from me and they may be better off talking to women close to them. But you often don't know what kind of advice or direct support your friend is capable of offering until you make your friends aware you have a problem. That is often why men I know share their problems, they are hoping for something useful even if they know the odds are low.
[+] [-] zupatol|16 years ago|reply
I know one guy who behaves like that. I found this out one day my wife was mad at me and I needed to talk to someone but he just pretended not to hear. I felt insulted until a mutual friend explained to me he always does this. Since then I have thought of him as an emotional cripple. This article actually makes me more tolerant. There are apparently many more guys like that out there, so many that it seems like another way of being normal.
I don't know how much of this is cultural. This friend obviously comes from the same culture as me. I'm swiss, so I would expect to have less in common with an indian than with someone from the wall street journal.
[+] [-] unknown|16 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] zefhous|16 years ago|reply
There are a number of things wrong with the logic here. These are sweeping generalizations that in my experience don't come close to reality. If there is any truth to this, I could see it only existing in select situations as described in the article like poker night or going to a football game with a group of men. People behave differently in groups than they do in one on one situations.
Also, as raju mentioned, I'm sure that a good amount of this is cultural. Even within western culture there are vastly differing cultural groups. Generalizations like this simply don't work, and I think it's harmful to entertain "stories" like this.
[+] [-] wdewind|16 years ago|reply
Hit the nail on the head...to even be having comparisons on the level of men vs. women is showing a shocking lack of nuance for WSJ...
[+] [-] aero142|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yalurker|16 years ago|reply
I will talk to a friend about a problem only if they can help solve it. I have absolutely no desire to try to get empathy or sympathy.
[+] [-] teuobk|16 years ago|reply
Also, are you implying that you'd like to work out a solution for your broken fishing boat? :)
[+] [-] carterschonwald|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seanmcq|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tokenadult|16 years ago|reply
True that. This is a very common shortcoming of many blog posts, but that doesn't keep those from being submitted to HN in great number.
[+] [-] byrneseyeview|16 years ago|reply
It might be hard to get funding, though.
[+] [-] albertsun|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stavrianos|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hugh3|16 years ago|reply
Also, men are better at nonverbal communication. If a friend has good news or bad news it's sufficient for me to say "Hey, congrats!" or "Bummer, that sucks dude", and we both know exactly where we stand. There's no need to spend several thousand words on agreeing with each other on exactly how good or bad the news is.
edit: Also, men and women find different things interesting. Women are far more interested in "feelings" and "relationships" as complicated objects worthy of discussion, whereas men see them as simple things unworthy of too much brainpower and would much rather think about "things" or "ideas". This explains why groups of men and groups of women will choose to talk about the things they find interesting, and why many man-woman conversations are doomed to be deathly boring to one partner or the other.
[+] [-] tokenadult|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kowen|16 years ago|reply
It would appear that the research on the subject is somewhat spotty and often gets misinterpreted, sometimes at the source.
I found a book on amazon the other day called Pink Brain, Blue Brain by neuroscientist Lise Elliot, which is next up on my reading list.
http://www.amazon.com/Pink-Brain-Blue-Differences-Troublesom...
One study I read about described a situation where the researchers bundled the same baby up and told some people that it was a boy and others that it was a girl. The people who thought it was a girl tended to comfort the baby when it got fussy, and the people who thought it was a boy tended to try to distract it.[1] Subtle, but I can imagine that there are other ways that we train girls to be more 'face to face'.
[1] from http://www.amazon.com/Failing-At-Fairness-Schools-Cheat/dp/0... --marred by some selection bias in the data they used, but very interesting nonetheless.
[+] [-] Mz|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] winter_blue|16 years ago|reply
The author obviously hasn't experienced a real close friendship with another male.
My close friends and I share a lot of our thoughts on life, our feelings, aspirations, we talk to each other about it, give each other advice, suggestions & support.
I feel bad for the author for not having experienced a true close friendship. He wanted an explanation why he didn't have a true close friend(s) like women do, but just couldn't admit it was him not having found a true friend; so he writes this article generalizing his situation to be a problem experienced by all males.
[+] [-] dustingetz|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nfnaaron|16 years ago|reply
Men and women are different. They are, and there's nothing wrong with that. Different people fall at different points along their stereotype lines.
Where the difference can lead to conflict is when people on opposite sides of that difference don't notice or acknowledge it, and/or don't accept it. "How could you possibly think different from me?"
Anecdote of one: When my kid was four in pre-school their class played a game where they threw water balloons out on a measured field. Each time the balloon didn't break you threw again.
When the balloon broke you were to go stand at the side of the field, at the distance where your balloon broke, to mark your score.
All the boys stood proudly by their distances. All the girls clustered with the first girl at her score point.
There may be social pressure for men and women to act as their stereotypes, but I think it comes in part from actual differences.
[+] [-] yason|16 years ago|reply
Yes, I have those shallow friendships too but their purpose is to have fun. We talk about computers, photography, cars, stuff like that, and usually while doing something. However, if those were all I had I would feel really lonely.
For me, it's absolutely essential to have few (male) friends who are close and with whom I can talk about and reflect my life. I share things with my wife too but you can't share everything with one close person and you shouldn't. A wife equals not an amateur friend therapist. You might want to mention your fears and problems to her but you don't want to dwell in them with her.
I have a feminine side like every person, male or female, and I think it's hugely valuable to have a male guy or two who can respond to that, too. The feminine side is a much smaller part of me than my masculine side but it's still there and if I were to only acknowledge the latter, I would be missing quite a lot in life.
Life can rarely be solved, in the masculine problem-solving way; you can only live it. Pretty much all you can "solve" in your life is change your attitude, and in order to do that you have to recognize and acknowledge what part of you feels bad. Talking helps in that; in fact, trying to consider it a solvable problem and fix myself would only drive me further from the change I'm eventually going after.
But I sure like going karting racing with my friends or having beers and a few good problems to solve: that's fun! I just also acknowledge that it's only one part of me.
[+] [-] joshuaeckroth|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smallblacksun|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yters|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rythie|16 years ago|reply
Though someone posting that their computer is broken only to receive answers like "yes, I'm listening" and "I understand" is probably not be that useful.
[+] [-] iskander|16 years ago|reply
That mode of friendship sounds terrible to me. I'm male and I like to be active with my friends (biking, hiking, going to shows, etc...). However, talking about the important pieces of your life (the happy stuff, anxieties, depressing things, etc...) atop a mountain or over a beer are absolutely essential. I feel like the author is foolishly generalizing from his own social life. I would probably feel alienated and unsupported if I had friends like his.
[+] [-] roundsquare|16 years ago|reply