I'm one of these missing men. I'm currently 35, and have been working as a software engineer since I was 19. Two years ago, I started experiencing excruciating, unrelenting low back pain that eventually required me to leave my job and go on long term disability.
I loved my job. I worked at MongoDB in Palo Alto for 3 years, contributing to the core database (C++) and designed a performance testing platform (among other things). It was a true pleasure to have worked with some extraordinarily brilliant people throughout my career. I biked ~5 miles to work from the house I shared with my partner in Atherton. Life was perfect.
I now live with my parents in Florida, and have symptoms that have progressed to what could be MS (I'm undergoing a complete work up at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, FL).
Life sucks. I'm depressed, but who wouldn't be? I also take prescription pain medicine, which helps me get out of bed and shed some of the 105lbs I've gained since this started. Being 6'2" and 285lbs is depressing in it's own right.
That said, I want to stress two things:
1. Opioids are daemonized by the media, but there is no better option (aside from suicide). The implied correlation with pain medication in this article seems to reinforce the stigma I've been facing; that somehow I'm lazy, weak or an addict. But all I can offer is my word.
Like most people who enjoy software engineering, I gained immense gratification from solving difficult problems, learning new things, and completing a piece of software I'm proud of. Opioids don't replace that feeling (for me anyway). Nothing does. But the lesions on my brain make writing software effectively impossible.
2. Debilitating conditions predicate losing a job and starting pain medication. Maybe some people are just lazy and hate their jobs, but please don't punish me (and others like me) for it. Even if they're in the majority, please don't punish me. I suffer enough.
I went through something similar the past couple of years, and was letting my back determine job prospects (i.e. I didn't want to take a train downtown and walk five blocks to work, hell I didn't want to walk to the parking garage next to my building).
For me (and possibly only me, I don't know your situation), what worked better than anything was to start eating a keto (low carb, and incidentally no wheat) diet, which some attribute to having anti-inflammatory effects: http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/01/low-back-pain-chiropra.... The pain went away very quickly (for me within a week of starting the diet) and I can walk normally again.
I'm not saying it will work for you, I don't know, but I've been on the diet for four months now, and the pain hasn't returned since. You might want to consider it. It significantly improved my life. I also lost 40lbs as well in that time period, with not a whole lot of exercise, which I'm hoping will help insure the pain doesn't come back in the future.
It's awful and it dictates your life when you have it, I know. I hope you figure out what's wrong and find something that works for you.
Also, if nothing else, I noticed that I could stay in the pool pretty much as long as I wanted when I had back pain, due to its buoyancy effect, so when I did have back pain, I got my exercise in by going to the pool regularly, and found relief from my pain while I was in there. You might want to consider that for weight loss as well.
If you are interested in keto, check out http://www.reddit.com/r/keto. It's a great source of information, motivation, and similar stories such as mine by real people, not paid endorsements.
There is research suggesting medical marijuana is a good replacement for opioids, in some cases. Too bad FL isn't a state that gives you that option, so you could at least try it.
In CO, the deaths by opioids have gone down significantly.
I was one who called the other guy lazy. You are different, and I know there are many others who are in similar situations as yourself.
The current opiate epidemic and crackdown is also unfortunately affecting people like you, who are legitimately in pain.
I don't really have anything, besides saying that we as a society should do what we can to get you healthy, but I feel that when there's people who are healthy enough to train for the army, and mentally capable, and still refuse to do anything, that's when society in general starts feeling "why do we have welfare?" and, essentially, their behavior hurts those who actually need the help.
I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (Of course there are people in worse situations than mine).
Every month I check a box online to certify I am actively looking for a job, but honestly I am not. How on earth do you want people like me begging for a job? It makes no sense. The worst thing is how society treats you and blames you for "laziness", yet those people are increasing but it seems nobody wants to hear it.
In some meeting with other people with disabilities, I suggested that there should be companies whose job is to match candidates with companies directly, so that candidates do not have to move sky and earth to find a job. I think it's not even a problem of investment and risk taking, it's just that there is nothing to build or to make, except software and robots, which require education, which is always money-constrained, unsurprisingly. Either that or people don't want to work anymore, and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary.
What kills me even more is the whole "get motivated" movement. I know I'm ranting but to me, society looks like a giant treading mill. Happiness and the slow, intelligent life have been forgotten in favor of a society of endless work and jobs. Contributing to the labor force has become a religion. The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It should not.
>The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy.
It kinda does, because for you to be able to idle and sit in your home painting, somebody else has to go on the "giant treadmill" to feed you, house you, and clothe you. Do you think I wouldn't like to idle at home as I please, and paint and write and read and laze about? Only if everybody did that we would all starve to death. It seems to me to be a gigantic sense of entitlement, that you deride people who work and brag about not looking for a job and complain about being called lazy, when in fact those people are the ones paying for your food so you can lounge about your house and paint and what else. Unless you have a legitimate disability, yeah, that pisses me off.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but you seem to contradict yourself:
The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing
The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy.
If you're happy sitting at home and drawing, and you can pay your bills and survive in that manner, more power to you, but it seems you're not happy doing that.
From what you write, it seems that you want someone to just give you a job, without you really having to going put in the effort to work for it. You say you're also training to be an army reservist, which implies that you're at least physically fit, and you know how to code, so you're at least mentally capable, so I'm guessing the disability is related to something like depression.
Now, I have no intention to knock depression, but it is on you to figure out how you can live that will satisfy you and provide your needs, whether it is working a corporate job, working in a field or being an artist.
But the way you describe yourself, I think the majority of people would classify you as being lazy, and I would say they are right to do so.
Nobody owes you a living. "Contributing to the labour force" isn't a religion; it is a necessary condition of life, without which we starve. There's no free lunch.
I think that, to protect your ego against accusations of laziness, you've projected this idea of society as a pointless activity, so you can defend to yourself your choices. It is self-delusional.
Those who haven't lived through a depression will never understand your plight and obviously not be able to "see" the challenges you face -- how oddly suppressed your voice is against this entire world -- but walk out of this ditch right now. It is going to kill you and even then the world will not understand your pain because it's designed that way.
You don't have to contribute or be a part of the machinery. Do not feed the for-profit machinery that you, like many of us, sorely dislike. Go into non-profit mode perhaps?: help a charity, give shelter to other underprivileged people or may be start an open source movement to make the machinery bleed.
Don't just sit and lose these moments explaining your situation to people who're blind and deaf and presumably dumb. They'll never see. They'll never see until this depression hits them for reasons of their own.
Please don't read into this post and the questions any more deeply than the surface, I do not have any intended judgement nor intend to imply anything. I'm trying to understand your post: I got your situation, but I'm missing the bigger points you are making.
> How on earth do you want people like me begging for a job? It makes no sense.
What do you mean with "people like you"? What is your problem? I'm taking the first paragraph to mean depress or some related disorder, but then you have
> In some meeting with other people with disabilities, I suggested that there should be companies whose job is to match candidates with companies directly, so that candidates do not have to move sky and earth to find a job. I think it's not even a problem of investment and risk taking, it's just that there is nothing to build or to make, except software and robots, which require education, which is always money-constrained, unsurprisingly. Either that or people don't want to work anymore, and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary.
Do you mean this would be a more systematic issue due to changes in labor requirements? Or that we currently have a shitty situation in job finding?
Being productive is an important part of life, though there isn't anything wrong with taking time off being productive to deal with an illness or build skills. I'd suggest focusing on self-care and getting your depression under control. Most people with mental illness will have it all their lives, its about getting it to a level that doesn't prevent you from enjoying life. Having no motivation and feeling exhausted are pretty detrimental to enjoying life. Although you said you are training to be a military reservist which sounds like it could be a great opportunity.
I think that the number one occupation we should have is to live our lives. The way we do this should be according to our values and not neccesarily to how others think we should.
Now, life has a mechanistic component driven by neccesities and an artistic one driven by ideals, self expression and pleasure.
The promised goal of modern technology was that a large part of the rutined work covering the neccesities of life would be outsourced to machines while humans could occupy themselves with the more pleasurable aspects of life..
I'm not sure if many realize, but in such a world very few would actually work. All the rest will play.
This is what AI will make a reality, and the job market needs a radical reform.
We should all prepare to transition from a work based paradigm to a play based paradigm. If you're doing it already good to you.
The subject is vast and has multiple implications but that's all I could distill in a HN post.
People respond to incentives. You (specifically you) get paid to be disabled. If the government started paying people to have an urge to eat artificially shit-flavored desserts (which is obviously a mental issue, since it's disgusting) then as soon as word got out, we would have a new epidemic of people with an inexplicable obsession to eat artificially shit-flavored desserts, making them unsuitable to integrate and join any workforce. That is not comfortable, it's not a nice, idle living, eating artificial shit-flavoring. But if that's what the government is paying for, some people will do it.
your English is good, given your skills background if you applied to 1,000 junior software dev positions (which would take you less than a year at the lowly pace of three per day) you would be employed in short order. But nobody is paying you to do that. You are, however, being paid to be disabled.
your comment is simply an example of people responding to incentives.
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Disclaimer: please don't respond to this comment. since I expect a bunch of responses from you let me preempt them by saying that I don't believe the above (or it's a joke) and I just copied it from a neo-Nazi web site, it's obviously completely wrong and not worth responding to, thanks. I just wanted to give it an example of what people say who are literally worse than Hitler. don't respond. I will just say that you're obviously completely right in every way and your response wasn't worth writing.
Do you have personal projects though? I know a few people who have used a long disability/unemployment period as an opportunity to work on one project while receiving enough money to survive without needing immediate profitability. Having a degree doesn't have anything to do with that, either.
I'm not in your place so I'm not saying you should do it, or even that I would actually do that if it were me. But I think I would try to consider this as an opportunity.
On the other hand, I have absolutely no problem with people being supported without doing productive work, because that's the way some of the greatest artists, inventors or scientists have been able to do their thing in the past.
I think universal basic income is the answer to this situation. The fact that you are (apparently) able to survive in our society without being a productive worker seems to be proof that society doesn't need everyone to be workers, contrary to what current politicians (at least in France) say about work, and how having a job seems to be the most important part of life and of citizenship. While the most important thing should just be taking part in society, and having a job clearly doesn't help with that unless you think society is just a large company, which is wrong.
Anyway, just don't forget that a lot of people don't have a problem with others staying at home to paint, draw, write or think. Society isn't blaming you for being lazy, only most of its rulers are, and those people who listen too much to them. It's not easy, but try not to get too influenced by the opinions you keep hearing in public medias, because they're all run by people who have an interest in having citizens think they have to work.
I had a discussion with OP in the past [1]. It basically boils down to him believing society has advanced to the point where not every one has to work (due to automation etc). Basic income (BI) should therefore be implemented and the societal perception of idleness/laziness be removed for people who don't work. The OP's motivation for this stance seems to be partially to justify his stance for ceasing search for work. While OP's circumstances seem to work for him (living with parents, welfare support), he does not understand that it wont work for the majority of people. He is basically wanting society to already behave as if BI has been implemented.
I can understand that the OP is getting tired of job hunting. It makes sense he believes working is not necessary and I actually agree with the OP somewhat. However, I think the only reason he has this stance is because of his difficulty in finding a job.
> What kills me even more is the whole "get motivated" movement. I know I'm ranting but to me, society looks like a giant treading mill. Happiness and the slow, intelligent life have been forgotten in favor of a society of endless work and jobs. Contributing to the labor force has become a religion. The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It should not.
I agree with you on some levels, this idea of ultra-productiveness is a religion. I would rather see high levels of productiveness to WORK LESS and ENJOY LIFE more. I'd love to work a 30-hour week so I can pursue other interests.
Instead, ultra-productiveness is causing a burnout loop of WORK MORE to allow more time to WORK MORE.
But this is all pointless. In the future, the amount of lazy people will be astronomical as robots and computers take over 99% of jobs.
I think what you wrote is 99% about your cultural conditioning. I know the depression makes it even harder, but you should try to forget what everyone says and just paint or write something. Do something not because people expect it but because it has some value for you. There is always something to do for oneself, no matter how small. Every day.
-- Just 2 eurocents from fellow european. I have had my share of handicap and exclusion, it took long arduous years but now I can stay idle whenever I want and not give a fuck about people thinking what I should be doing instead.
Have you considered coming to study in the United States and obtaining a bachelor's degree? Software development is in high demand in all aspects here. At worst you get a break from your current life, at best you start a new one. Let me know if you want to chat more.
> I know I'm ranting but to me, society looks like a giant treading mill. Happiness and the slow, intelligent life have been forgotten in favor of a society of endless work and jobs. Contributing to the labor force has become a religion. The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It should not.
I mean, to a degree i can understand what you mean. We are seeking happiness in the treadmill and that rarely seems to bring it. We hope that after the treadmill there will be happiness, but few are sure of that.
My problem though, with what i took from your words, was that it sounds like you believe work is becoming less and less required. I don't feel that's true, unfortunately.
I think that will become true, in time, but we don't have the technology to automate the work we need to. Sure, we have various factory line jobs replaces with robotics, and we're working on lots of general replacement (Taxis, for example), but most of the labor force, even "just" manual labor, requires specific intensive understanding that we are not even close to replicating with robotics. Hell, we're still struggling to walk easily and effectively. Sure, walking robots are becoming more natural and skilled, but it's definitely still a WIP.
My robotics leap may have seemed odd, but that's what i believe is required before your comment holds true. Work will always be required - there is no doubt about that. Someone, some thing, will be doing work. And humanity will only be able to ignore work once we've enslaved something else to do it for us.
So back to topic, i think part of the stress you feel from society is a bit of a "i have to do it, so you have to do it" thing. Why should you get to do what you like, when others so clearly cant? You could argue that we're all expecting too much, we don't need the gadgets/etc, and that living very frugal can be a means to happiness, but living frugal doesn't absolve yourself from work.
The frugal lives of the world still work. Some may not work as hard, some may have much more free time, but there's still work to be done. You still have to learn the trades to repair your stuff, or pay someone else to do it for you. To grow your food, or to pay someone else to. And etc.
I'm not trying to come off aggressive, so i hope it doesn't seem that way. Perhaps i'm missing your point, but the statement of:
> ... and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary.
In programming and academia you only see the most gifted of society, and even many of those seem to struggle. I can barely imagine what it would be like to be in the less gifted half of the population. I wonder if such men have any chance to build a life respected, or even just work enough to found a family. They seem to have fewer options each year, to find satisfying roles in life.
They seem to receive even less understanding or sympathy.
This is why Trump is popular. He's the opiate of people who are left behind. People mock them for supporting Trump, but few people offer appealing alternatives.
Any research on association of joblessness with internet addiction? I know China has entire state-sponsored treatment programs for internet/video game addiction; they think it is a real problem. I think if a person is consuming 8-9 hours of electronic media per day (which is around average), particularly internet or video games, then their motivation/capacity to interface with the real world is severely damaged. In many ways reality is not as rewarding/stimulating as the internet, but is also more difficult and risky. Just take the case of mating: I can enjoy simulated physical intimacy with literally thousands of physically attractive women with 0 risk of rejection and 0 effort, or I can take on the risk of painful rejection and enormous effort of achieving "social status" and being "charismatic" in order to attract an "actual" woman with whom I get to have "actual" sex, which at the end of the day is just not as good as fake sex with 100s of different electronic women. And really, if I have no need to find a real woman, what need do I have to find a job? Electronic stimulation is severely fucking up the reward/motivation functioning of the human brain, at least for some people, in the same way alcohol is a huge problem for some people.
I think the other factor is simply technological productivity. A handful of software engineers can run e.g. Facebook, a social networking site for billions of people. A handful of farmers can produce food for billions of people. Every job opening receives 100s to 1000s of resumes because the world's productivity to consumption of human labor ratio increases every day. If you're not like a top .01% skill level person, you're really not needed. Your brain has been obsoleted.
What I'll write might sound stupid to some but well...
There needs to be a re-configuration of the global economy and its system.
People like me late 20's and younger might be feeling that they have no future. At least I do. I am working full-time and thats fine. That only pays my day to day expenses, coming the end of the month am always out of money waiting for the next paycheck.
Me buying my own house? That sounds like some sort of sorcery to me...
Unfortunately prices went up, on houses etc and nowadays you got Tech involved in anything you do. You have to have a smartphone, and your wife wants the smartphone with the bitten apple no matter if it will cost half a months salary. Your kids want an Ipad or some sort of tablet. Your household needs a TV with netflix, amazon and whatever so you don't get bored. Add all those small things around and the era where everyone is obsessed with "BRANDS", yes let me buy a GANT sweater cause it going to make me so cool, while I could have bought a sweater much much cheaper of the same quality.
Unfortunately that makes you think that ok... live today and let tomorrow be.
Also another thing that I see around a lot is the use of Drugs and Weed especially. Several people I know or most I'd say they make daily use of Weed. Thats definitely affecting their mind and tbh they've reached the level of obsession with it where they really don't need anything else to live off.
There is literally no goal set for me. Will I get a pension when I get older? WHO KNOWS? Will I ever get off working even when I reach a very old age? Who knows, most likely i'll be working for the rest of my life...
Will I be able to afford a house and a normal way of life? Probably in the next 20 years, thats too late but its the truth I'll be around 50's when I'll be owning a house. Not an expensive house, a house that prolly when I sell it won't even cover me for 5 years of living without a job. Thats the sad situation that I and all youngsters are in, let alone people in the US or even Europe with Student loans, I don't even wanna think of them and what kind of future can they have.
P.S I am referring to an example of what the average person around me thinks of. Don't call me self-entitled that's harsh and you don't know me.
It probably doesn't help that some companies, such as Amazon, like to treat their unskilled labourers as basically disposable. It's a lot more profitable to set performance requirements that are impossible to meet without seriously injuring yourself, then replace all the temp workers regularly with fresh meat, than to have decent working conditions.
Comparing those numbers with Europe, whose safety net doesn't usually require people to pretend being disabled, would have been enlightening. A missed opportunity.
After watching the documentary "13th" on Netflix recently, I wondered about how the US prison population affected this. Something like 1 out of 100 people in the US are in prison, which must be close to 2 out of 100 men. And another chunk of people who's function in society is to monitor those in jail. Plus the difficulties of getting a job as a felon. Seemed like all put together must have a serious impact on productivity.
I think part of the problem is that jobs are becoming more and more high skill based, requiring many years of university level education. The low skilled jobs are replaced with high skilled ones. The problem is our education systems are falling behind. Education needs to be readily accessible and inexpensive for both initial schooling and those who need/want to re-skill. The universities should also have employment programs which help workers new to their field find and obtain jobs so they can gain experience.
With the economy the way it is (slower growth, wage stagnation etc), employers are unwilling to take the potential risk with low skilled workers (who have no degree) and there are plenty of new workers who just finished their degree which employers will prefer to employ. I suspect there would be enough jobs, if there were enough high skilled workers and a better economy. I think the problem is there is a shortage of high skilled experienced workers and an oversupply of lower skilled workers.
As some anecdotal evidence, when I search for software engineering / developer jobs in my country, I see a lot of high skilled jobs available, requiring moderate to significant levels of experience and/or education. However, there are much fewer junior/graduate/basic developer jobs available.
To become a high skilled worker, you generally have to start in the low skilled jobs, or get a PhD. If its hard to get a lower skilled/entry level job due to low demand, the rate higher skilled worker are produced is restricted. So its a catch 22.
I don't dispute the numbers in the article and can't speak to the tragedy of opioid addiction, but whenever I see something like this I am reminded of a friend of mine who never had a job, and never looked, from ages 18-30. He came from an upper-middle class family and his parents basically supported him all those years and he was fine with that. He knows he's lazy and embraced that as long as he could. To outsiders who'd ask why he doesn't have a job, he'd blame it on things like a crummy job market, chronic joint pain, or that he had hearing issues that prevented him from working effectively. He never went on disability though. Finally when his parents' fortune ran low, he had to suck it up and start working and he's doing fine now.
So, I always wonder when reading this stuff, what portion of the sample just has "affluenza" and is blaming it on something else to hide the truth (which, by the way, I don't have a problem with - if someone wants to embrace being lazy and has the means to do it, then go ahead).
Not pointed out in the article, but perhaps in the study(?) - the United States has been engaged in an active war for the past 15 years that likely contributes to an increased number of those taking painkillers for injuries or having some sort of psychological disorder. In my mind I liken it to shellshock and after-effects felt in societies post WWI / WWII. I don't have specifics on the number of wounded / in treatment but it is likely not an insignificant contributor to such an increase.
> 31 percent of those receiving benefits have mental disorders
This has got to be a major contributing factor. Add in those with undiagnosed psych problems, and I'm sure it would stand out even more. [Of course, maybe they would be balanced out by the 'fakers'-- but that is almost equally alarming, and itself suggests all kinds of deeper problems.]
Both reducing the stigma of and increasing access to mental health care are hugely important right now. Most people with such issues are perfectly capable of being productive employees-- but not if they are marginalized through terrible hiring processes, workplace 'social politics' and inflexible, unsympathetic (or simply incompetent) management. A robust jobs program could certainly help.
Indeed. I know so many people (from support groups) who say they are afraid of mentioning their mental condition to their employer for fear of effects of the social stigma from their superiors and the impact on their career.
I'm not aware of any unemployment figure that includes small business owners or those who are self-employed.
The real question is, are people who retired early (see /r/financialindependence) counted in this figure? What about trust fund kids? I'd argue that if you have enough money to not need to work, and you aren't, and you don't want to, then you should slot into some category very different than the people who can't work and aren't self-sufficient financially.
Yes, at least by BLS's instrument, entrepreneurs are both in the labor force and employed.
Census runs a separate survey with separate definitions, and so does Treasury -- yes, it's infuriating -- and I don't know how entrepreneurs and SBOs fit in to those, but for BLS they count as employed if they're actually doing work for the company they founded (even if they're not yet taking a paycheck).
[+] [-] vrtx0|9 years ago|reply
I loved my job. I worked at MongoDB in Palo Alto for 3 years, contributing to the core database (C++) and designed a performance testing platform (among other things). It was a true pleasure to have worked with some extraordinarily brilliant people throughout my career. I biked ~5 miles to work from the house I shared with my partner in Atherton. Life was perfect.
I now live with my parents in Florida, and have symptoms that have progressed to what could be MS (I'm undergoing a complete work up at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, FL).
Life sucks. I'm depressed, but who wouldn't be? I also take prescription pain medicine, which helps me get out of bed and shed some of the 105lbs I've gained since this started. Being 6'2" and 285lbs is depressing in it's own right.
That said, I want to stress two things:
1. Opioids are daemonized by the media, but there is no better option (aside from suicide). The implied correlation with pain medication in this article seems to reinforce the stigma I've been facing; that somehow I'm lazy, weak or an addict. But all I can offer is my word.
Like most people who enjoy software engineering, I gained immense gratification from solving difficult problems, learning new things, and completing a piece of software I'm proud of. Opioids don't replace that feeling (for me anyway). Nothing does. But the lesions on my brain make writing software effectively impossible.
2. Debilitating conditions predicate losing a job and starting pain medication. Maybe some people are just lazy and hate their jobs, but please don't punish me (and others like me) for it. Even if they're in the majority, please don't punish me. I suffer enough.
[+] [-] cableshaft|9 years ago|reply
For me (and possibly only me, I don't know your situation), what worked better than anything was to start eating a keto (low carb, and incidentally no wheat) diet, which some attribute to having anti-inflammatory effects: http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/01/low-back-pain-chiropra.... The pain went away very quickly (for me within a week of starting the diet) and I can walk normally again.
I'm not saying it will work for you, I don't know, but I've been on the diet for four months now, and the pain hasn't returned since. You might want to consider it. It significantly improved my life. I also lost 40lbs as well in that time period, with not a whole lot of exercise, which I'm hoping will help insure the pain doesn't come back in the future.
It's awful and it dictates your life when you have it, I know. I hope you figure out what's wrong and find something that works for you.
Also, if nothing else, I noticed that I could stay in the pool pretty much as long as I wanted when I had back pain, due to its buoyancy effect, so when I did have back pain, I got my exercise in by going to the pool regularly, and found relief from my pain while I was in there. You might want to consider that for weight loss as well.
If you are interested in keto, check out http://www.reddit.com/r/keto. It's a great source of information, motivation, and similar stories such as mine by real people, not paid endorsements.
[+] [-] e40|9 years ago|reply
In CO, the deaths by opioids have gone down significantly.
[+] [-] reverend_gonzo|9 years ago|reply
The current opiate epidemic and crackdown is also unfortunately affecting people like you, who are legitimately in pain.
I don't really have anything, besides saying that we as a society should do what we can to get you healthy, but I feel that when there's people who are healthy enough to train for the army, and mentally capable, and still refuse to do anything, that's when society in general starts feeling "why do we have welfare?" and, essentially, their behavior hurts those who actually need the help.
I wish you the best.
[+] [-] jokoon|9 years ago|reply
Every month I check a box online to certify I am actively looking for a job, but honestly I am not. How on earth do you want people like me begging for a job? It makes no sense. The worst thing is how society treats you and blames you for "laziness", yet those people are increasing but it seems nobody wants to hear it.
In some meeting with other people with disabilities, I suggested that there should be companies whose job is to match candidates with companies directly, so that candidates do not have to move sky and earth to find a job. I think it's not even a problem of investment and risk taking, it's just that there is nothing to build or to make, except software and robots, which require education, which is always money-constrained, unsurprisingly. Either that or people don't want to work anymore, and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary.
What kills me even more is the whole "get motivated" movement. I know I'm ranting but to me, society looks like a giant treading mill. Happiness and the slow, intelligent life have been forgotten in favor of a society of endless work and jobs. Contributing to the labor force has become a religion. The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It should not.
[+] [-] andrepd|9 years ago|reply
It kinda does, because for you to be able to idle and sit in your home painting, somebody else has to go on the "giant treadmill" to feed you, house you, and clothe you. Do you think I wouldn't like to idle at home as I please, and paint and write and read and laze about? Only if everybody did that we would all starve to death. It seems to me to be a gigantic sense of entitlement, that you deride people who work and brag about not looking for a job and complain about being called lazy, when in fact those people are the ones paying for your food so you can lounge about your house and paint and what else. Unless you have a legitimate disability, yeah, that pisses me off.
[+] [-] reverend_gonzo|9 years ago|reply
From what you write, it seems that you want someone to just give you a job, without you really having to going put in the effort to work for it. You say you're also training to be an army reservist, which implies that you're at least physically fit, and you know how to code, so you're at least mentally capable, so I'm guessing the disability is related to something like depression.
Now, I have no intention to knock depression, but it is on you to figure out how you can live that will satisfy you and provide your needs, whether it is working a corporate job, working in a field or being an artist.
But the way you describe yourself, I think the majority of people would classify you as being lazy, and I would say they are right to do so.
[+] [-] barrkel|9 years ago|reply
Nobody owes you a living. "Contributing to the labour force" isn't a religion; it is a necessary condition of life, without which we starve. There's no free lunch.
I think that, to protect your ego against accusations of laziness, you've projected this idea of society as a pointless activity, so you can defend to yourself your choices. It is self-delusional.
[+] [-] throwawayIndian|9 years ago|reply
Those who haven't lived through a depression will never understand your plight and obviously not be able to "see" the challenges you face -- how oddly suppressed your voice is against this entire world -- but walk out of this ditch right now. It is going to kill you and even then the world will not understand your pain because it's designed that way.
You don't have to contribute or be a part of the machinery. Do not feed the for-profit machinery that you, like many of us, sorely dislike. Go into non-profit mode perhaps?: help a charity, give shelter to other underprivileged people or may be start an open source movement to make the machinery bleed.
Don't just sit and lose these moments explaining your situation to people who're blind and deaf and presumably dumb. They'll never see. They'll never see until this depression hits them for reasons of their own.
[+] [-] NhanH|9 years ago|reply
> How on earth do you want people like me begging for a job? It makes no sense.
What do you mean with "people like you"? What is your problem? I'm taking the first paragraph to mean depress or some related disorder, but then you have
> In some meeting with other people with disabilities, I suggested that there should be companies whose job is to match candidates with companies directly, so that candidates do not have to move sky and earth to find a job. I think it's not even a problem of investment and risk taking, it's just that there is nothing to build or to make, except software and robots, which require education, which is always money-constrained, unsurprisingly. Either that or people don't want to work anymore, and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary.
Do you mean this would be a more systematic issue due to changes in labor requirements? Or that we currently have a shitty situation in job finding?
[+] [-] swannicus|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zer0gravity|9 years ago|reply
I think that the number one occupation we should have is to live our lives. The way we do this should be according to our values and not neccesarily to how others think we should.
Now, life has a mechanistic component driven by neccesities and an artistic one driven by ideals, self expression and pleasure.
The promised goal of modern technology was that a large part of the rutined work covering the neccesities of life would be outsourced to machines while humans could occupy themselves with the more pleasurable aspects of life..
I'm not sure if many realize, but in such a world very few would actually work. All the rest will play.
This is what AI will make a reality, and the job market needs a radical reform.
We should all prepare to transition from a work based paradigm to a play based paradigm. If you're doing it already good to you.
The subject is vast and has multiple implications but that's all I could distill in a HN post.
[+] [-] logicallee|9 years ago|reply
your English is good, given your skills background if you applied to 1,000 junior software dev positions (which would take you less than a year at the lowly pace of three per day) you would be employed in short order. But nobody is paying you to do that. You are, however, being paid to be disabled.
your comment is simply an example of people responding to incentives.
- Disclaimer: please don't respond to this comment. since I expect a bunch of responses from you let me preempt them by saying that I don't believe the above (or it's a joke) and I just copied it from a neo-Nazi web site, it's obviously completely wrong and not worth responding to, thanks. I just wanted to give it an example of what people say who are literally worse than Hitler. don't respond. I will just say that you're obviously completely right in every way and your response wasn't worth writing.
[+] [-] seszett|9 years ago|reply
I'm not in your place so I'm not saying you should do it, or even that I would actually do that if it were me. But I think I would try to consider this as an opportunity.
On the other hand, I have absolutely no problem with people being supported without doing productive work, because that's the way some of the greatest artists, inventors or scientists have been able to do their thing in the past.
I think universal basic income is the answer to this situation. The fact that you are (apparently) able to survive in our society without being a productive worker seems to be proof that society doesn't need everyone to be workers, contrary to what current politicians (at least in France) say about work, and how having a job seems to be the most important part of life and of citizenship. While the most important thing should just be taking part in society, and having a job clearly doesn't help with that unless you think society is just a large company, which is wrong.
Anyway, just don't forget that a lot of people don't have a problem with others staying at home to paint, draw, write or think. Society isn't blaming you for being lazy, only most of its rulers are, and those people who listen too much to them. It's not easy, but try not to get too influenced by the opinions you keep hearing in public medias, because they're all run by people who have an interest in having citizens think they have to work.
[+] [-] elementalest|9 years ago|reply
I can understand that the OP is getting tired of job hunting. It makes sense he believes working is not necessary and I actually agree with the OP somewhat. However, I think the only reason he has this stance is because of his difficulty in finding a job.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11322640
[+] [-] adamredwoods|9 years ago|reply
I agree with you on some levels, this idea of ultra-productiveness is a religion. I would rather see high levels of productiveness to WORK LESS and ENJOY LIFE more. I'd love to work a 30-hour week so I can pursue other interests.
Instead, ultra-productiveness is causing a burnout loop of WORK MORE to allow more time to WORK MORE.
But this is all pointless. In the future, the amount of lazy people will be astronomical as robots and computers take over 99% of jobs.
[+] [-] csomar|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rini17|9 years ago|reply
-- Just 2 eurocents from fellow european. I have had my share of handicap and exclusion, it took long arduous years but now I can stay idle whenever I want and not give a fuck about people thinking what I should be doing instead.
[+] [-] muninn_|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fizzbatter|9 years ago|reply
I mean, to a degree i can understand what you mean. We are seeking happiness in the treadmill and that rarely seems to bring it. We hope that after the treadmill there will be happiness, but few are sure of that.
My problem though, with what i took from your words, was that it sounds like you believe work is becoming less and less required. I don't feel that's true, unfortunately.
I think that will become true, in time, but we don't have the technology to automate the work we need to. Sure, we have various factory line jobs replaces with robotics, and we're working on lots of general replacement (Taxis, for example), but most of the labor force, even "just" manual labor, requires specific intensive understanding that we are not even close to replicating with robotics. Hell, we're still struggling to walk easily and effectively. Sure, walking robots are becoming more natural and skilled, but it's definitely still a WIP.
My robotics leap may have seemed odd, but that's what i believe is required before your comment holds true. Work will always be required - there is no doubt about that. Someone, some thing, will be doing work. And humanity will only be able to ignore work once we've enslaved something else to do it for us.
So back to topic, i think part of the stress you feel from society is a bit of a "i have to do it, so you have to do it" thing. Why should you get to do what you like, when others so clearly cant? You could argue that we're all expecting too much, we don't need the gadgets/etc, and that living very frugal can be a means to happiness, but living frugal doesn't absolve yourself from work.
The frugal lives of the world still work. Some may not work as hard, some may have much more free time, but there's still work to be done. You still have to learn the trades to repair your stuff, or pay someone else to do it for you. To grow your food, or to pay someone else to. And etc.
I'm not trying to come off aggressive, so i hope it doesn't seem that way. Perhaps i'm missing your point, but the statement of:
> ... and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary.
Seems very very foreign to me.
[+] [-] return0|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gaius|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Allower|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] hedgew|9 years ago|reply
They seem to receive even less understanding or sympathy.
[+] [-] qntty|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] reader5000|9 years ago|reply
I think the other factor is simply technological productivity. A handful of software engineers can run e.g. Facebook, a social networking site for billions of people. A handful of farmers can produce food for billions of people. Every job opening receives 100s to 1000s of resumes because the world's productivity to consumption of human labor ratio increases every day. If you're not like a top .01% skill level person, you're really not needed. Your brain has been obsoleted.
[+] [-] pcurve|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] muse900|9 years ago|reply
There needs to be a re-configuration of the global economy and its system.
People like me late 20's and younger might be feeling that they have no future. At least I do. I am working full-time and thats fine. That only pays my day to day expenses, coming the end of the month am always out of money waiting for the next paycheck. Me buying my own house? That sounds like some sort of sorcery to me...
Unfortunately prices went up, on houses etc and nowadays you got Tech involved in anything you do. You have to have a smartphone, and your wife wants the smartphone with the bitten apple no matter if it will cost half a months salary. Your kids want an Ipad or some sort of tablet. Your household needs a TV with netflix, amazon and whatever so you don't get bored. Add all those small things around and the era where everyone is obsessed with "BRANDS", yes let me buy a GANT sweater cause it going to make me so cool, while I could have bought a sweater much much cheaper of the same quality.
Unfortunately that makes you think that ok... live today and let tomorrow be.
Also another thing that I see around a lot is the use of Drugs and Weed especially. Several people I know or most I'd say they make daily use of Weed. Thats definitely affecting their mind and tbh they've reached the level of obsession with it where they really don't need anything else to live off.
There is literally no goal set for me. Will I get a pension when I get older? WHO KNOWS? Will I ever get off working even when I reach a very old age? Who knows, most likely i'll be working for the rest of my life... Will I be able to afford a house and a normal way of life? Probably in the next 20 years, thats too late but its the truth I'll be around 50's when I'll be owning a house. Not an expensive house, a house that prolly when I sell it won't even cover me for 5 years of living without a job. Thats the sad situation that I and all youngsters are in, let alone people in the US or even Europe with Student loans, I don't even wanna think of them and what kind of future can they have.
P.S I am referring to an example of what the average person around me thinks of. Don't call me self-entitled that's harsh and you don't know me.
[+] [-] makomk|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brohee|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ZeroGravitas|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elementalest|9 years ago|reply
With the economy the way it is (slower growth, wage stagnation etc), employers are unwilling to take the potential risk with low skilled workers (who have no degree) and there are plenty of new workers who just finished their degree which employers will prefer to employ. I suspect there would be enough jobs, if there were enough high skilled workers and a better economy. I think the problem is there is a shortage of high skilled experienced workers and an oversupply of lower skilled workers.
As some anecdotal evidence, when I search for software engineering / developer jobs in my country, I see a lot of high skilled jobs available, requiring moderate to significant levels of experience and/or education. However, there are much fewer junior/graduate/basic developer jobs available.
To become a high skilled worker, you generally have to start in the low skilled jobs, or get a PhD. If its hard to get a lower skilled/entry level job due to low demand, the rate higher skilled worker are produced is restricted. So its a catch 22.
[+] [-] jliptzin|9 years ago|reply
So, I always wonder when reading this stuff, what portion of the sample just has "affluenza" and is blaming it on something else to hide the truth (which, by the way, I don't have a problem with - if someone wants to embrace being lazy and has the means to do it, then go ahead).
[+] [-] sailfast|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] slfnflctd|9 years ago|reply
This has got to be a major contributing factor. Add in those with undiagnosed psych problems, and I'm sure it would stand out even more. [Of course, maybe they would be balanced out by the 'fakers'-- but that is almost equally alarming, and itself suggests all kinds of deeper problems.]
Both reducing the stigma of and increasing access to mental health care are hugely important right now. Most people with such issues are perfectly capable of being productive employees-- but not if they are marginalized through terrible hiring processes, workplace 'social politics' and inflexible, unsympathetic (or simply incompetent) management. A robust jobs program could certainly help.
[+] [-] dilemma|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] colmvp|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] contingencies|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matthewmorgan|9 years ago|reply
http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html
[+] [-] naveen99|9 years ago|reply
Women labor force participation rate in india 24% http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/24/opinion/why-arent-india...
[+] [-] sc4th1s|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] return0|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nolepointer|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] a_c|9 years ago|reply
Does entrepreneurs constitute labor force? If so, then "labor force" and "not employed and not seeking a job" are not exactly the same
[+] [-] CydeWeys|9 years ago|reply
The real question is, are people who retired early (see /r/financialindependence) counted in this figure? What about trust fund kids? I'd argue that if you have enough money to not need to work, and you aren't, and you don't want to, then you should slot into some category very different than the people who can't work and aren't self-sufficient financially.
[+] [-] bandrami|9 years ago|reply
Census runs a separate survey with separate definitions, and so does Treasury -- yes, it's infuriating -- and I don't know how entrepreneurs and SBOs fit in to those, but for BLS they count as employed if they're actually doing work for the company they founded (even if they're not yet taking a paycheck).
[+] [-] bnastic|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neves|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] k__|9 years ago|reply