I had the privilege of visiting the Church of the Holy Sepulchre after attending an astronomy conference in Israel a year ago. My wife and I got there for a mass just a little before 6am so it wasn't very crowded. It was really an extraordinary experience. The Edicule had something of a steampunk feel to it, which I was not expecting. As the article mentions, it was built in the 1800s, but due to the Status Quo agreement, it has not been maintained at all and it looked like it could collapse at any moment.
The whole mass felt very surreal. As it was being celebrated there was simultaneously an Armenian liturgy and Greek Orthodox liturgy being celebrated on other sides of the Edicule. If you've ever been to one of those liturgies, you know that there's an almost constant drone of chant throughout. At times it was hard to hear the priest in front of us! I'm still not sure whether to interpret the experience as being a wonderful illustration of the unity or the disunity of the Christian Church.
Spent the winter in Israel a couple of years ago. The old city in Jerusalem is awe inspiring.
As for the Holy Sepulchre, as a non-Christian I found it pretty surreal. Clearly for the faithful it's a big deal, saw people outright crying coming out of the Sepulchre.
The church itself is beautiful, powerful artwork from all of the sects (Ethiopian included). Particularly the fresco at the entrance, Christ being laid to rest, the disciples in tears, pretty moving piece.
Unfortunately my experience was darkened by a group of troublemaker teenagers; saw them shove an old woman deep in prayer, just appalling. On leaving they followed me and one of them spit in my hair. When I turned around the kid said, "only water, only water".
Needless to say Jerusalem's a complex mix of cultures, history, and religions.
I always find stories like this fascinating. We're talking about a place where a mythical event was supposed to occur. It's like analyzing the place where Promethius first brought fire, or the spot where Osiris was resurrected. Maybe interesting for anthropology, but by no means the 'hard science' implied by the tone and presentation of the article.
Of course they're OUR myths, so it's important that we describe them with serious sounding words, and pretend that they're a valid spur for hard scientific research.
There isn't any evidence, outside of mythology, that this place or slab of marble has anything special to reveal about our universe. Just because you're looking through a scientific tool, does not change the fact that what you're looking at is mythology. You're just looking at a communion wafer through a microscope.
Still, it's fascinating to me that we present it in the same tone and context that we present LHC results.
It's fascinating to me that your strong belief (ie faith) that this is a myth should cause you to not be truth-seeking and thoughtful.
I also can't see how the article's tone is "hard science". It uses words like "venerated", "Christian tradition", "sacred", and "cultural heritage" so I don't read presuppositions in it, and I don't recall seeing a hypothesis posed.
One of the main points of the article was that there are a lot of people and representatives of faith involved, and if the result of "hard science" research is "peace and mutual respect" (as the article quoted), then I would take that over LHC results every time.
I've been to the tomb, once, when I was 13 ish. I remember an Orthodox priest inside the chamber, who was taking donations in exchange for candlesticks and talismans etc. I also remember him telling my father to leave the money on the tomb, next to his goods. My father, who is no more a Christian than I am was absolutely disgusted at that.
'Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible ... all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise being that somehow just can't handle money!, Always needs a little more.'
My experience was different while in Jerusalem - Christian churches were free to visit, synagogues required you to "donate" and mosques were immediately kicking you out.
When I saw the title, I thought maybe they'd found actual evidence about where Jesus was buried. No, it's the traditional birthplace, identified as such in AD 329, apparently.
It's surprising that they've done this, given the Immovable Ladder's example of just how difficult it is to alter anything in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
Nothing some termites or woodworms can't fix, and it will at least lay to rest one more religious conflict.
From your link:
"The primary conflicts, however, surrounding the ladder and its immovability have been disputed by a lasting conflict between the Greek Orthodox Church and the Armenian Apostolic Church."
Surely such insect activity could be interpreted as 'an act of God' and then all parties could get on with their lives.
This is the first time I have heard about that story. This is so strange and unbelievable, and yet very familiar. It sounds like something out of Swift between the Big Endians and the Little Endians. Thanks for bringing it up.
Article is misleading. "Restorers working in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Israel uncover stone slab venerated as the resting place of Jesus Christ"
But it looks like the church is actually in the Palestinian lands [1]. Is there political motivation here?
The old city is technically part of the area taken in the 67 war, which is the areas which are usually talked about when refereing to palastine.
But unlike the west bank, it was formally annexed by israel, it contains jewish holy sites such as the west wall, it is not currently part of the PA and I doubt anyone is seriously expecting it to be part of a future palastinian state (in a two state solution at least).
A lot of the National Geographic societys work these days seems to have a strong appeal to religous people. They are owned by the FOX corporation and I wonder if this religious market is something that FOX is pushing them to focus on.
One story about archaeology, including the science thereof, in an ancient church isn't going to be a deal-breaker even for people who are fair-minded atheists.
They should have really mentioned the real most likely burial place of the historical Jesus, which was found some decades ago by the archeaologist James Tabor, the Talpiot Tomb.
The same guy also found the tomb of Jesus' family before.
This tomb was opened in 2005 for some short time, but there's a new jewish apartment building on top of it, so they rather go with the Church of Holy Sepulcher fairy tale.
Not many scientists but many Christians believe that Jesus actually lay in this Church of Holy Sepulcher for 3 days.
I call complete bullshit. From having watched shows like NCS, we know the amount of direct evidence it takes to establish something like who was buried somewhere.
Like the shroud of Turin this is just another example of wishful thinking. They found some random tomb that has survived and announced that it was the tomb of this fictional character Christ. No chain of custody for evidence, just the wishful thinking of somebody who wants it to be true, just like the entire resurrection theory. Complete and total hogwash.
If we were to say this is the burial site of Joseph the plumber, the proponents of this idea would have no evidence to argue otherwise.
The article consistently qualifies it like "According to Christian tradition". Only the title is inaccurate. It even mentions that they're interested in finding out "how it evolved as the focal point of veneration since ... A.D. 326." Jesus was buried 300 years after his death? It's pretty clear on the fact that Jesus's body didn't really get put there and that it's just a myth.
and here we all were thinking they'd irrefutably proved Christianity.
there's still history to be learned and an interesting story to be told about life thousands of years ago regardless of its lack of real supernatural content.
in other news Apple didn't revolutionize everything again with the touch bar, welcome to life :p
[+] [-] antognini|9 years ago|reply
The whole mass felt very surreal. As it was being celebrated there was simultaneously an Armenian liturgy and Greek Orthodox liturgy being celebrated on other sides of the Edicule. If you've ever been to one of those liturgies, you know that there's an almost constant drone of chant throughout. At times it was hard to hear the priest in front of us! I'm still not sure whether to interpret the experience as being a wonderful illustration of the unity or the disunity of the Christian Church.
[+] [-] virtualwhys|9 years ago|reply
As for the Holy Sepulchre, as a non-Christian I found it pretty surreal. Clearly for the faithful it's a big deal, saw people outright crying coming out of the Sepulchre.
The church itself is beautiful, powerful artwork from all of the sects (Ethiopian included). Particularly the fresco at the entrance, Christ being laid to rest, the disciples in tears, pretty moving piece.
Unfortunately my experience was darkened by a group of troublemaker teenagers; saw them shove an old woman deep in prayer, just appalling. On leaving they followed me and one of them spit in my hair. When I turned around the kid said, "only water, only water".
Needless to say Jerusalem's a complex mix of cultures, history, and religions.
[+] [-] ohthehugemanate|9 years ago|reply
Of course they're OUR myths, so it's important that we describe them with serious sounding words, and pretend that they're a valid spur for hard scientific research.
There isn't any evidence, outside of mythology, that this place or slab of marble has anything special to reveal about our universe. Just because you're looking through a scientific tool, does not change the fact that what you're looking at is mythology. You're just looking at a communion wafer through a microscope.
Still, it's fascinating to me that we present it in the same tone and context that we present LHC results.
[+] [-] TeMPOraL|9 years ago|reply
Well, I hope people are actually doing that. I think people believing in some phenomenon should aways encourage scientific inquiry into it.
[+] [-] etse|9 years ago|reply
I also can't see how the article's tone is "hard science". It uses words like "venerated", "Christian tradition", "sacred", and "cultural heritage" so I don't read presuppositions in it, and I don't recall seeing a hypothesis posed.
One of the main points of the article was that there are a lot of people and representatives of faith involved, and if the result of "hard science" research is "peace and mutual respect" (as the article quoted), then I would take that over LHC results every time.
[+] [-] YeGoblynQueenne|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|9 years ago|reply
'Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible ... all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise being that somehow just can't handle money!, Always needs a little more.'
[+] [-] bitL|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrewflnr|9 years ago|reply
Edit: find->found
[+] [-] Hondor|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] exclusiv|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] imaginenore|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vacri|9 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immovable_Ladder
[+] [-] jacquesm|9 years ago|reply
From your link:
"The primary conflicts, however, surrounding the ladder and its immovability have been disputed by a lasting conflict between the Greek Orthodox Church and the Armenian Apostolic Church."
Surely such insect activity could be interpreted as 'an act of God' and then all parties could get on with their lives.
[+] [-] seren|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] salimmadjd|9 years ago|reply
But it looks like the church is actually in the Palestinian lands [1]. Is there political motivation here?
[1] https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7724981,35.2362521,15z
[+] [-] Illniyar|9 years ago|reply
But unlike the west bank, it was formally annexed by israel, it contains jewish holy sites such as the west wall, it is not currently part of the PA and I doubt anyone is seriously expecting it to be part of a future palastinian state (in a two state solution at least).
[+] [-] TheSpiceIsLife|9 years ago|reply
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_t...
[+] [-] rolal|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wyclif|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kesselvon|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rurban|9 years ago|reply
Not many scientists but many Christians believe that Jesus actually lay in this Church of Holy Sepulcher for 3 days.
[+] [-] 13of40|9 years ago|reply
But seriously, it should be an interesting read once they've fully studied it.
[+] [-] kixpanganiban|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwAway48|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dang|9 years ago|reply
Personal attack plus inflammatory rhetoric is the sort of dynamite we need to avoid if we're to have civil, substantive discussion.
We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12813739 and marked it off-topic.
[+] [-] d3ckard|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] british_india|9 years ago|reply
Like the shroud of Turin this is just another example of wishful thinking. They found some random tomb that has survived and announced that it was the tomb of this fictional character Christ. No chain of custody for evidence, just the wishful thinking of somebody who wants it to be true, just like the entire resurrection theory. Complete and total hogwash.
If we were to say this is the burial site of Joseph the plumber, the proponents of this idea would have no evidence to argue otherwise.
[+] [-] lostlogin|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Hondor|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gadders|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] PostOnce|9 years ago|reply
and here we all were thinking they'd irrefutably proved Christianity.
there's still history to be learned and an interesting story to be told about life thousands of years ago regardless of its lack of real supernatural content.
in other news Apple didn't revolutionize everything again with the touch bar, welcome to life :p