I dislike this post intensely. The opinion comes across as uncharitable, as the author probably has not used this Macbook Pro yet. How can you (alexeysemeney) be so sure?
I consider myself a developer, and I almost never use the Fn and ESC keys on my Mac. Everybody uses the computer differently, but I'm pretty sure this is not a deal-breaker for most. One could also argue that the touch bar might lead to innovative developer tools, such as timeline interfaces for Replay Debugging. There are already a lot of applications in the content creation (Photoshop, Illustrator, Maya) space, which developers frequently use to create assets.
I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs:
"The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well… nope."
Because a 2010 2.4ghz dual core is identical to a 2016 2.4 ghz dual core.... I thought we got over comparing processors purely by their clock speed a long time ago. (I will agree that theyve been going with lower and lower power to allow for better battery life, this is a terrible way to make the comparison. Id much rather see a processor comparison graph here).
Personally I think this is a terrible decision, but then again, I think using a laptop keyboard for programming is a terrible decision too. I need multiple monitors and an external keyboard to get anything done, so I typically use a desktop, and then use a lightweight laptop (basically a chromebook) to remote into the desktop if I absolutely need to be mobile.
Also, "What other people are saying" and then listing 4 anecdotal quotes seems pretty uncompelling.
I imagine this is not a great developer's laptop. But apple fanboys will keep buying it and either stop using vim just so they can keep using apple or buy an external keyboard. And Im really not sure what else you could really want out of a laptop then.
Devs are a huge market for Apple, but Apple is ignoring them.
This isn't about ESC, it's about whether Apple has any interest in acknowledging the dev market and keeping devs on board.
The answer is "no."
Apple is making no concessions to developers or professional power users who need performance. Instead, Apple is producing vanilla-grade laptops with a touch of gimmicky brand frosting to justify the high price.
The real heuristic is skimping on performance and connectivity to maintain margins. The cost to users is significant lost productivity.
This is the MacBook Pro Intern Edition. It could have been more, but that's where Apple is now.
I was configuring a server while walking through the airport the other day (long story and I won't bore you with details) on my ipad. There is no control key on the ipad keyboard meaning that I could not save any files from the ssh terminal. It was not the greatest experience and I can definitely see these kinds of things happening on laptop now due to apples "courage". They seem to be gung-ho on breaking things that work perfectly in the name of "progress".
I find really amusing that after the Macbook reveal last year half of the response comments (in sites like ArsTechnica) were of the gist "just give me an updated Macbook Air, with the same form factor and a better screen".
Well, the base Macbook Pro model does exactly that. There is also an option (cheaper!) to keep the function keys.
I might be getting old and grumpy, but more than anything else
it boggles my mind when apparently everyone believes they should be the target user Apple (or Microsoft, or Google,or...) design their product for, and they consider a personal insult when that is not the case.
I don't think there was ever a time where the laptop market had so many options, at all price levels, many of those of such a high quality.
You don't like that a particular manufacturer is offering ? Vote with your wallet and choose another option, don't whine.
> I consider myself a developer, and I almost never use the Fn and ESC keys on my Mac.
ESC usage just off the top of my head: cancelling any dropdown (e.g. IDE autocomplete, browser autocomplete, Spotlight, quick file search in Atom/Sublime), cancelling any OK/cancel dialog (e.g. save as), the ESC + '.' sequence in Bash to get the last word of the last command.
I don't think it would be very hard for terminal.app (or other apps targeted at developers) to show esc f1 etc along the top when it is open, and it can strictly have better function keys because instead of f4 etc they can be customised to say what they'd actually do.
I agree the fuss over the touch bar is overplayed.
It's a terrible post, and a terrible site (did it break anyone else's back button?)
I gave up on Mac as a development platform back in 2012 when they removed expose and replaced it with that terrible Mission Control garbage. Then I went back to Linux and discovered tiling window managers and haven't looked back. (and yes, I realize there are some good ones for mac now).
But I will say on this post that the escape key is a good point. I use it all the time. Sure you can rebind it, but it's not a useless, SysReq/ScrollLock type key. Most developers will have to rebind it if it doesn't appear on that touch bar thingy.
I've used the Lenovo's "adaptive keyboard". It's crap to use, especially for development. FN keys are especially easy to remap for macros or lesser used functions, and having no haptic feedback essentially kills their function for a touch typist.
It's also no wonder that newer carbon models came back to regular fn keys.
I actually bought/buy macbooks for their build quality, and generally only install linux on them. Looks like this particular model marks the end of this path.
The ESC key should hardly be a deal breaker for Vim devs - most remap it to caps lock on a Mac because it's easier to reach.
The 13" model has a version that keeps that row anyway. And the Touch Bar does still have a function key row/view? with ESC. MacVim and iTerm could probably add the functionality that the whole row is an ESC key when they are the active apps.
For me though, Apple got it wrong by releasing a gimmick (touch bar) which may be useful for some groups of Pro users (designers/film editors?) but I can't see adding much value to what I think is their largest group - software developers.
For me my ideal developer laptop is small, light and powerful. So while it's great the Pro is now the same size and weight as the air (13" model), I think they could have gone even smaller - see the Dell XPS 13. A 13" full powered (i7, 16GB ram) in a 12" body (by having an edge to edge 'infinity' screen). Basically they should have released a MacBook that can run an i7 and 16GB ram.
I do some programming (Xcode and VS Code), I do some 3D art (blender, substance), and I do some photography (Lightroom). Not all of those programs will support it at launch, but I expect they will sooner or later. And the new screen sounds fabulous (I have a wide gamut external screen already, though it's AdobeRGB instead of P3, the MacBook will do better in reds and not quite as well in greens). I wish it were cheaper, sure, but this looks like a fantastic computer to me.
Yeah, you need some different cables. You might need to rebind some hotkeys. It might take a while for some pieces of software to support the touch bar properly.
If you don't want to be an early adopter or you can't get over your Vim muscle memory, pick up a refurbished 2015 model and the rest of us can buy a few new USB cables and move on with our lives.
I'm always amazed at how techies are so often unable to consider other people's points of view. You'd think I'd be used to it by now, but no.
If you don't like the new design, that's totally fine. I've seen a lot of people saying that. But when you say that the new design is bad for everybody, or bad for millions of people you haven't met, based solely on your own personal reasons, you've lost it.
I'm a developer. The only reason I'm not buying one of these is because what I currently have is just fine, and I don't feel like spending the money. The touch bar looks really cool. It might not end up being very useful, but I think I'd like to have it. If it's not useful, well, no big deal.
Function keys? Never use 'em. Escape key? Having it available as a touch button doesn't seem like a major problem. If it turns out to be, then I'll learn or configure some other shortcut for it and get on with my life.
Now, that's just me. Your opinion may differ, and that's fine. I just ask you to have the same attitude. It's silly to say that this machine "is not a laptop for developers." It's not a laptop for you, apparently, and for people with similar needs and opinions. But not all developers are you.
Here is my issue with the new touch bar as a general UI element. Things meant for fingers should have tactile feedback unless you're also looking at the same location (like a touch screen) where you can get visual feedback. This offers no tactile response when used, and its layout changes constantly, thus it needs to be looked at to use it. That means you have to shift your vision focus from screen to keyboard repeatedly as you move through apps (or even while in the same app if they make the content dynamic). To me this is bad UI design at a fundamental level.
I can see this being handy as a "slider" style control (though a touch pad edge could be as well). Otherwise though, especially when used as "buttons" my opinion is that it is going to be very tiresome to use extensively and slow general interactions down. If you need this kind of interaction style it should be on a touch screen without forcing the eyes to change focus or monitor changes in peripheral vision.
TLDR There is a reason we touch type. Touch. Exactly what this is missing.
My problem is thus: I'm worried I won't like the new laptop and its going to decrease productivity.
I have a very small desire for change. I do like my existing mid-2014 15" MBP but I beat on them really hard so at almost 2 years old, it needs a replacement now.
I'm worried that I will basically end up in a position where I won't have anything that is a suitable replacement for this laptop when it breaks.
The lack of ANY USB ports is frustrating too. I have a hardware USB YubiKey Nano dongle that I leave permanently plugged into my computer for 2FA to various services. I don't want to loose the ability to do that (and I'm not even sure its physically possible to have something like that for USB-C -- its just too small)
I use vim for everything and thus obsessively use the esc key (yes, I know you can remap it, but I'll be fighting against 20+ years of muscle memory). Will the new virtual ESC key be enough? I hope so.
The lack of magsafe also really irks me. I used to destroy chargers like crazy before magsafe. Replacing magsafe with USB-C doesn't seem like a positive step to me.
I really want to love this computer, because I really don't see another option. I'm just worried that I won't and then I won't have any better options.
Bah, these entitled kids. I guess being old enough to remember keyboards before they had escape keys helps, but ␛ is just keyboard syntactic sugar for control left square bracket. Read your ASCII table! C-[ is even a quicker type avoiding RSIs from all those long pinky reaches.
(More seriously, as much as it bothers me to retrain my pinky, most uses of the escape key would be many times better if the lefthand side of the touch bar had a word for the function, like stop being full screen, cancel, leave menu, or whatever. The function would then be discoverable instead of secret lore.)
What do you mean by that last line? Well for one thing the bar is customizable by each app, but still, from the examples, they show very clear icons of function.
This is already far superior than just F1, F2, etc, which are far far more cryptic than a descriptive icon.
That's the thing, most apps already do use F keys for custom bindings, but you have to manually memorize them for each different app. Here, you at least get to see the correct icon in each program you're using.
And as a bonus, you get variable size buttons, sliding input, colors, and much more that just isn't possible with simple buttons.
I use ␛ as the Meta key in Emacs. I just tried using C-[ instead. It works, but you have to press down both CTRL and [ at the same time; you can't flam CTRL and then [.
I am reminded also of one time trying to write C code on an IBM AS/400, only to find that the keyboard did not have square bracket keys at all...
> ␛ is just keyboard syntactic sugar for control left square bracket
Technically — and here I go of on the stereotypical irrelevant nerd tangent (bind the adjectives as you will) — it's the other way around. ASCII was certainly designed with Shift and Control modifiers in mind, and arranged so that a device could have those keys merely flip a bit (see e.g. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit-paired_keyboard>), but nothing actually mandates that those keys exist and that Control+h generate Backspace or Shift+h generate H.
I absolutely agree that Control+x ↦ x&0x3F is an established convention, and it continually annoys me that Windows and Windows-aping software violates it.
Ha, this is like "walked 5 miles in the snow uphill to school" territory.
I personally don't like the idea of losing some keys, keys are nice, my fingers can feel where they are at all times. But that said my fingers also know exactly where to go without the feedback of the keys. I do like the prospect of programming a custom touch bar for various programs, that seems kind of neat, but I would have also been fine with keeping my function keys (I mean custom bindings are what function keys are for in the first place, no?).
This doesn't even get into the dongle problem. The simplest example is that if you want to hook up Apple's flagship phone up to their flagship laptop for development, you need a dongle. And if you want to share one of their flagship wired headphones between the two devices, you need another dongle. Therefore if you want to connect three of Apple's flagship devices together on a daily basis, you can't go anywhere without bringing at least two dongles with you.
I've had a good, satisfying run with MacBook Pros, but now I'm stepping off the Apple train. I understand that Apple is trying to go in a new direction with the new MacBook Pros, and I won't complain about it. I am now simply moving to an Arch Linux setup on an old Lenovo Thinkpad Carbon X1 to continue living inside the Terminal.
Honest question: what's the alternative? I've got a 2013 rMBP 15 inch. What's my next machine? I'm not willing to regress on display (220 ppi or better), screen size, or battery life (8-9 hours real use). I might regress on quad core to dual core if everything else is perfect.
EDIT: The XPS 15 gets more like 5-6 hours with the high res display by my understanding. The Surface Book has the right combination of resolution and battery life, but 15.4" to 13.5" is a big step down if you're used to working with side by side windows. Is there anything out there I've overlooked?
You immediately lost any credibility when you complained that the 2.4 GHz processor is the "same" as the one back in 2010. Clock rate has nothing to do with performance these days. Skylake is 25-35% faster across the board (and multiples faster for number crunching) than whatever Nehalem or Core2 was in the Macbooks in 2010.
There's room for debate about the new Macbook Pro, but this post is bad.
#1 - The touch bar is dynamic and contextual. It's likely that you can enable the traditional ESC/Fx row when you're using Terminal, your editor, etc. It's extremely unlikely that the ESC key is gone forever, given that existing software relies on it.
#2 - RAM is a valid point, but this part is wrong/dishonest: "The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well... nope." The 13" MBP now has a 2.9 GHz dual-core Intel Core i5, upgradable to 3.3 GHz. The 15" MBP now has a 2.6 GHz quad-core Intel Core i7.
#3 - So there are four negative snarky people on Twitter. Not a surprise. And they're just repeating issues #1 and #2.
I was waiting for the new Macbook Pros as I need to buy a new laptop, and was going to give my old Macbook Pro (2014 model) to my wife. But given that they have nothing of value (I don't care about gimmicks like the new touch bar), I've decided to abandon Mac and go back to Linux.
I'm just a typical web developer, running a bunch of virtual machines, and an IDE. Any recommendations? I saw the Dell XPS 15 for around £1,300:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B018FSX9GA/
Any others? I'm not a Linux diehard, so I'd probably go with Ubuntu.
As a developer and an Apple user for last decade, this has certainly been the most disappointing Keynote I've ever seen from Apple. I do think, however, some of these concerns are overblown.
If you're a VIM user and haven't tried overriding the Caps Lock key to be an Esc key, you should give it a try, it has made VIM a much better experience for many people.
On the memory side, doing development work I can hardly think of a time when 16GB was limiting on the RAM side, and I hardly notice the performance hit when using swap on the incredibly fast SSD.
And the processors have definitely improved, I'm currently running a 15" MBP Late 2013 at 2.0GHz. The new base models are starting on newer architecture at 2.7GHz.
Having said that, I'm still not sure whether I'm going to be upgrading any time soon...
To be honest, the only thing that's causing me to say it's not a "developer machine" is the keyboard. It features the same butterfly switches that the 12" MacBook has and my good are they horrible. I seriously can't imagine writing long sessions of code with this mushy keyboard.
I don't get it. With the new touch bar and stereo speakers they WANT us to use the MacBook as is, without external keyboard and then they give us these dreadful switches that almost feel like you're pressing a sheet of paper.
I understand that for the 12" MacBook they wanted a machine as thin as possible and the keyboard was too thick. But why oh why ok the pro lineup.
I actually REALLY really liked the type feeling of MacBook keyboards
I'm no Apple fanboy nor apologist, but this sentiment is everywhere and overtly dramatic. They continue to provide a 13" model with function keys as an alternative. If that machine isn't fast enough you probably aren't a "developer" anyways. Also, I rarely use the keyboard on my mac because I use it on a stand with an additional monitor. If you want to complain about the new Mac, complain about price or the fact that the touch bar is unusable in an ergonomic setting, just don't act like you can't still use VIM.
Sadly this seems to be the same old pile-on that happens after every apple product announcement:
> #1. No Escape and function keys [...] The Escape and Function keys on the laptops have been abandoned in favor of a touch bar that changed depending on the application that is being used.
They went out of their way to display the escape key and many other contextual keys with Terminal.app in the foreground† They did this despite it being possibly the least "sexy" demonstration of the hardware. This article seems to have been written after skimming some reporting on the keynote without researching the specifics.
> This isn’t to say that the touch bar is an inherently bad idea. You could locate it on top of the Esc and function keys instead of eliminating them entirely! Something like this: <image>
Not that there aren't worthy talking points in this article, but it's really annoying when a blogger has the arrogance to photoshop some keyboard image together and proclaim it's a better design than what a gigantic company carefully came up with.
Apple has its own reasons for doing things and they aren't going to please everybody, but does this Alexey Semeney fellow actually think Apple didn't consider all the possibilities before removing a whole bunch of keys from the keyboard? Apple might be a lot of things, but careless is not usually one of them.
Lenovo introduced a Touch Bar (Adaptive Keyboard strip) in the Thinkpad X1 Carbon in 2014. It flopped so hard that Lenovo pulled it and reinstituted a normal function row in the 2015 refresh.
Why does Apple get a pass? No physical keys means not being able to find functionality by touch alone means no muscle memory means no productivity. This isn't a hypothesis, this is a proven market reaction to Lenovo's design choices.
Currently every time I open iTerm, I need to change directory into my project, spin up my virtual env, and then initialize some stuff within my virtualenv.
Now I can map those commands to icons in the toolbar, rather than having to page through the history command each time. How is that not a huge improvement for developers? Any time you can replace a command or alias with a visual icon that's a significant reduction in cognitive overhead.
While the fact that you can only get 16 gigs of RAM is annoying, the fact that the SSD is 50% faster at least ameliorates this somewhat. And the fact that there are seemingly several low hanging fruit things that Apple can make to improve the product, while annoying to people like me who needed to purchase one of these today, at least shows that they will probably continue to make improvements to the lineup.
I had to scroll pretty far down the page to get to comments that weren't about the escape and function keys and vim. It's the other stuff that really matters. In 2007 and 08 when Jobs was alive there was absolutely no question that MBPs were the absolute best laptops in the world. There were maybe a few huge gamer laptops with faster specs, but nothing had excellent specs in such a small and well build package. This is no longer the case.
If I were NVidia I'd be making a very big deal that not even the initial development of that cool new depth of field stuff on iPhone 7 could be done on any Apple computer.
Another major point is that this thread says apple is leaving developers behind. Sure it might only be leaving VR, gaming, and AI developers behind, but wait, where is the industry going?
More fuel for the fire. Apple proudly claims they have the biggest gaming platform in the world with iPhone. They just lucked into it. They never purposefully set out to make a gaming platform. But now that they have it they should own it. Imagine how thrilled the world would have been if Cook had stood on stage and said something like "and now for the first time ever because of this amazing new GPU, you can play your favorite games on your Macbook Pro on ultra at 60 frames per second." It would have blown the doors off Apple stock. Macbook Pro is about PRO users not about executives that need 13 hours of battery life to give Keynote presentations. People would have been completely happy with even a little increase in width and weight and decrease in battery life for the sake of a major performance upgrade in memory and GPU.
[+] [-] ericjang|9 years ago|reply
I consider myself a developer, and I almost never use the Fn and ESC keys on my Mac. Everybody uses the computer differently, but I'm pretty sure this is not a deal-breaker for most. One could also argue that the touch bar might lead to innovative developer tools, such as timeline interfaces for Replay Debugging. There are already a lot of applications in the content creation (Photoshop, Illustrator, Maya) space, which developers frequently use to create assets.
[+] [-] bisby|9 years ago|reply
I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs:
"The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well… nope."
Because a 2010 2.4ghz dual core is identical to a 2016 2.4 ghz dual core.... I thought we got over comparing processors purely by their clock speed a long time ago. (I will agree that theyve been going with lower and lower power to allow for better battery life, this is a terrible way to make the comparison. Id much rather see a processor comparison graph here).
Personally I think this is a terrible decision, but then again, I think using a laptop keyboard for programming is a terrible decision too. I need multiple monitors and an external keyboard to get anything done, so I typically use a desktop, and then use a lightweight laptop (basically a chromebook) to remote into the desktop if I absolutely need to be mobile.
Also, "What other people are saying" and then listing 4 anecdotal quotes seems pretty uncompelling.
I imagine this is not a great developer's laptop. But apple fanboys will keep buying it and either stop using vim just so they can keep using apple or buy an external keyboard. And Im really not sure what else you could really want out of a laptop then.
[+] [-] TheOtherHobbes|9 years ago|reply
Devs are a huge market for Apple, but Apple is ignoring them.
This isn't about ESC, it's about whether Apple has any interest in acknowledging the dev market and keeping devs on board.
The answer is "no."
Apple is making no concessions to developers or professional power users who need performance. Instead, Apple is producing vanilla-grade laptops with a touch of gimmicky brand frosting to justify the high price.
The real heuristic is skimping on performance and connectivity to maintain margins. The cost to users is significant lost productivity.
This is the MacBook Pro Intern Edition. It could have been more, but that's where Apple is now.
[+] [-] chairmanwow|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] echelon|9 years ago|reply
And no, I don't think remapping it is a great idea.
If I had to use this for work I would protest.
[+] [-] rorykoehler|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kurtz79|9 years ago|reply
Well, the base Macbook Pro model does exactly that. There is also an option (cheaper!) to keep the function keys.
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/10/no-new-macbook-airs-as-...
I might be getting old and grumpy, but more than anything else it boggles my mind when apparently everyone believes they should be the target user Apple (or Microsoft, or Google,or...) design their product for, and they consider a personal insult when that is not the case.
I don't think there was ever a time where the laptop market had so many options, at all price levels, many of those of such a high quality.
You don't like that a particular manufacturer is offering ? Vote with your wallet and choose another option, don't whine.
[+] [-] seanwilson|9 years ago|reply
ESC usage just off the top of my head: cancelling any dropdown (e.g. IDE autocomplete, browser autocomplete, Spotlight, quick file search in Atom/Sublime), cancelling any OK/cancel dialog (e.g. save as), the ESC + '.' sequence in Bash to get the last word of the last command.
I could map ESC to the caps lock key I suppose.
[+] [-] grey-area|9 years ago|reply
http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/
I don't think it would be very hard for terminal.app (or other apps targeted at developers) to show esc f1 etc along the top when it is open, and it can strictly have better function keys because instead of f4 etc they can be customised to say what they'd actually do.
I agree the fuss over the touch bar is overplayed.
[+] [-] antihero|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EugeneOZ|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] djsumdog|9 years ago|reply
I gave up on Mac as a development platform back in 2012 when they removed expose and replaced it with that terrible Mission Control garbage. Then I went back to Linux and discovered tiling window managers and haven't looked back. (and yes, I realize there are some good ones for mac now).
But I will say on this post that the escape key is a good point. I use it all the time. Sure you can rebind it, but it's not a useless, SysReq/ScrollLock type key. Most developers will have to rebind it if it doesn't appear on that touch bar thingy.
[+] [-] usernam|9 years ago|reply
It's also no wonder that newer carbon models came back to regular fn keys.
I actually bought/buy macbooks for their build quality, and generally only install linux on them. Looks like this particular model marks the end of this path.
[+] [-] zzzcpan|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] snowwolf|9 years ago|reply
The 13" model has a version that keeps that row anyway. And the Touch Bar does still have a function key row/view? with ESC. MacVim and iTerm could probably add the functionality that the whole row is an ESC key when they are the active apps.
For me though, Apple got it wrong by releasing a gimmick (touch bar) which may be useful for some groups of Pro users (designers/film editors?) but I can't see adding much value to what I think is their largest group - software developers.
For me my ideal developer laptop is small, light and powerful. So while it's great the Pro is now the same size and weight as the air (13" model), I think they could have gone even smaller - see the Dell XPS 13. A 13" full powered (i7, 16GB ram) in a 12" body (by having an edge to edge 'infinity' screen). Basically they should have released a MacBook that can run an i7 and 16GB ram.
[+] [-] wlesieutre|9 years ago|reply
Yeah, you need some different cables. You might need to rebind some hotkeys. It might take a while for some pieces of software to support the touch bar properly.
If you don't want to be an early adopter or you can't get over your Vim muscle memory, pick up a refurbished 2015 model and the rest of us can buy a few new USB cables and move on with our lives.
[+] [-] ag_47|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikeash|9 years ago|reply
If you don't like the new design, that's totally fine. I've seen a lot of people saying that. But when you say that the new design is bad for everybody, or bad for millions of people you haven't met, based solely on your own personal reasons, you've lost it.
I'm a developer. The only reason I'm not buying one of these is because what I currently have is just fine, and I don't feel like spending the money. The touch bar looks really cool. It might not end up being very useful, but I think I'd like to have it. If it's not useful, well, no big deal.
Function keys? Never use 'em. Escape key? Having it available as a touch button doesn't seem like a major problem. If it turns out to be, then I'll learn or configure some other shortcut for it and get on with my life.
Now, that's just me. Your opinion may differ, and that's fine. I just ask you to have the same attitude. It's silly to say that this machine "is not a laptop for developers." It's not a laptop for you, apparently, and for people with similar needs and opinions. But not all developers are you.
[+] [-] 51Cards|9 years ago|reply
I can see this being handy as a "slider" style control (though a touch pad edge could be as well). Otherwise though, especially when used as "buttons" my opinion is that it is going to be very tiresome to use extensively and slow general interactions down. If you need this kind of interaction style it should be on a touch screen without forcing the eyes to change focus or monitor changes in peripheral vision.
TLDR There is a reason we touch type. Touch. Exactly what this is missing.
[+] [-] AdamJacobMuller|9 years ago|reply
I have a very small desire for change. I do like my existing mid-2014 15" MBP but I beat on them really hard so at almost 2 years old, it needs a replacement now.
I'm worried that I will basically end up in a position where I won't have anything that is a suitable replacement for this laptop when it breaks.
The lack of ANY USB ports is frustrating too. I have a hardware USB YubiKey Nano dongle that I leave permanently plugged into my computer for 2FA to various services. I don't want to loose the ability to do that (and I'm not even sure its physically possible to have something like that for USB-C -- its just too small)
I use vim for everything and thus obsessively use the esc key (yes, I know you can remap it, but I'll be fighting against 20+ years of muscle memory). Will the new virtual ESC key be enough? I hope so.
The lack of magsafe also really irks me. I used to destroy chargers like crazy before magsafe. Replacing magsafe with USB-C doesn't seem like a positive step to me.
I really want to love this computer, because I really don't see another option. I'm just worried that I won't and then I won't have any better options.
[+] [-] erikb|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sliverstorm|9 years ago|reply
It's a little funny, considering the inverse of this is basically a core plot point in "Silicon Valley". Life imitates art imitates life.
[+] [-] jws|9 years ago|reply
(More seriously, as much as it bothers me to retrain my pinky, most uses of the escape key would be many times better if the lefthand side of the touch bar had a word for the function, like stop being full screen, cancel, leave menu, or whatever. The function would then be discoverable instead of secret lore.)
[+] [-] cypres|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ph0X|9 years ago|reply
This is already far superior than just F1, F2, etc, which are far far more cryptic than a descriptive icon.
That's the thing, most apps already do use F keys for custom bindings, but you have to manually memorize them for each different app. Here, you at least get to see the correct icon in each program you're using.
And as a bonus, you get variable size buttons, sliding input, colors, and much more that just isn't possible with simple buttons.
[+] [-] tjr|9 years ago|reply
I am reminded also of one time trying to write C code on an IBM AS/400, only to find that the keyboard did not have square bracket keys at all...
[+] [-] sdegutis|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kps|9 years ago|reply
I absolutely agree that Control+x ↦ x&0x3F is an established convention, and it continually annoys me that Windows and Windows-aping software violates it.
[+] [-] TheGRS|9 years ago|reply
I personally don't like the idea of losing some keys, keys are nice, my fingers can feel where they are at all times. But that said my fingers also know exactly where to go without the feedback of the keys. I do like the prospect of programming a custom touch bar for various programs, that seems kind of neat, but I would have also been fine with keeping my function keys (I mean custom bindings are what function keys are for in the first place, no?).
[+] [-] 3chelon|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] heeen2|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aikah|9 years ago|reply
Yeah these entitled kids paying > $3000 for a product, they should just shut up and give money to Apple /s
[+] [-] slg|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] laddng|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rayiner|9 years ago|reply
EDIT: The XPS 15 gets more like 5-6 hours with the high res display by my understanding. The Surface Book has the right combination of resolution and battery life, but 15.4" to 13.5" is a big step down if you're used to working with side by side windows. Is there anything out there I've overlooked?
[+] [-] ObjectiveSub|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nartsbtaa|9 years ago|reply
#1 - The touch bar is dynamic and contextual. It's likely that you can enable the traditional ESC/Fx row when you're using Terminal, your editor, etc. It's extremely unlikely that the ESC key is gone forever, given that existing software relies on it.
#2 - RAM is a valid point, but this part is wrong/dishonest: "The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well... nope." The 13" MBP now has a 2.9 GHz dual-core Intel Core i5, upgradable to 3.3 GHz. The 15" MBP now has a 2.6 GHz quad-core Intel Core i7.
#3 - So there are four negative snarky people on Twitter. Not a surprise. And they're just repeating issues #1 and #2.
This is a garbage post. A much better critical article is linked here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12817332
[+] [-] shenanigoat|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blowski|9 years ago|reply
I'm just a typical web developer, running a bunch of virtual machines, and an IDE. Any recommendations? I saw the Dell XPS 15 for around £1,300: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B018FSX9GA/
Any others? I'm not a Linux diehard, so I'd probably go with Ubuntu.
[+] [-] azmenak|9 years ago|reply
If you're a VIM user and haven't tried overriding the Caps Lock key to be an Esc key, you should give it a try, it has made VIM a much better experience for many people.
On the memory side, doing development work I can hardly think of a time when 16GB was limiting on the RAM side, and I hardly notice the performance hit when using swap on the incredibly fast SSD.
And the processors have definitely improved, I'm currently running a 15" MBP Late 2013 at 2.0GHz. The new base models are starting on newer architecture at 2.7GHz.
Having said that, I'm still not sure whether I'm going to be upgrading any time soon...
[+] [-] dvcrn|9 years ago|reply
I don't get it. With the new touch bar and stereo speakers they WANT us to use the MacBook as is, without external keyboard and then they give us these dreadful switches that almost feel like you're pressing a sheet of paper.
I understand that for the 12" MacBook they wanted a machine as thin as possible and the keyboard was too thick. But why oh why ok the pro lineup.
I actually REALLY really liked the type feeling of MacBook keyboards
[+] [-] mschip|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ixtli|9 years ago|reply
> #1. No Escape and function keys [...] The Escape and Function keys on the laptops have been abandoned in favor of a touch bar that changed depending on the application that is being used.
They went out of their way to display the escape key and many other contextual keys with Terminal.app in the foreground† They did this despite it being possibly the least "sexy" demonstration of the hardware. This article seems to have been written after skimming some reporting on the keynote without researching the specifics.
† http://live.arstechnica.com/hello-again-apples-october-2016-...
[+] [-] easytiger|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hellofunk|9 years ago|reply
Not that there aren't worthy talking points in this article, but it's really annoying when a blogger has the arrogance to photoshop some keyboard image together and proclaim it's a better design than what a gigantic company carefully came up with.
Apple has its own reasons for doing things and they aren't going to please everybody, but does this Alexey Semeney fellow actually think Apple didn't consider all the possibilities before removing a whole bunch of keys from the keyboard? Apple might be a lot of things, but careless is not usually one of them.
[+] [-] cypres|9 years ago|reply
I almost never use the F keys, so if they kept the Esc key but removed the rest it would be perfect :)
[+] [-] solatic|9 years ago|reply
Why does Apple get a pass? No physical keys means not being able to find functionality by touch alone means no muscle memory means no productivity. This isn't a hypothesis, this is a proven market reaction to Lenovo's design choices.
[+] [-] Alex3917|9 years ago|reply
Now I can map those commands to icons in the toolbar, rather than having to page through the history command each time. How is that not a huge improvement for developers? Any time you can replace a command or alias with a visual icon that's a significant reduction in cognitive overhead.
While the fact that you can only get 16 gigs of RAM is annoying, the fact that the SSD is 50% faster at least ameliorates this somewhat. And the fact that there are seemingly several low hanging fruit things that Apple can make to improve the product, while annoying to people like me who needed to purchase one of these today, at least shows that they will probably continue to make improvements to the lineup.
[+] [-] AdmiralAsshat|9 years ago|reply
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/10/no-new-macbook-airs-as-...
So I suppose in theory if you wanted something new but without breaking your workflow, you could just go for that one.
[+] [-] kelsus|9 years ago|reply
If I were NVidia I'd be making a very big deal that not even the initial development of that cool new depth of field stuff on iPhone 7 could be done on any Apple computer.
Another major point is that this thread says apple is leaving developers behind. Sure it might only be leaving VR, gaming, and AI developers behind, but wait, where is the industry going?
More fuel for the fire. Apple proudly claims they have the biggest gaming platform in the world with iPhone. They just lucked into it. They never purposefully set out to make a gaming platform. But now that they have it they should own it. Imagine how thrilled the world would have been if Cook had stood on stage and said something like "and now for the first time ever because of this amazing new GPU, you can play your favorite games on your Macbook Pro on ultra at 60 frames per second." It would have blown the doors off Apple stock. Macbook Pro is about PRO users not about executives that need 13 hours of battery life to give Keynote presentations. People would have been completely happy with even a little increase in width and weight and decrease in battery life for the sake of a major performance upgrade in memory and GPU.