I was in scouts and cadets here in New Zealand when I was a teenager and continue to spend a fair amount of time in the outdoors (I also did Outward Bound when I was 16), and I can definitely relate to the researcher's findings.
When you're 2 days walk from civilisation, it's pissing down with rain, and you're cold, wet, hungry, and tired, you get a different perspective on life and the "soft" challenges that you face in life back home.
By "soft" challenges I mean things that aren't really life threatening, if you fail to pay the bills, you aren't going to die. If you get soaking wet and get hypothermia in the bush, you could very well die (although it's very unlikely in a structured environment like scouts).
I used to ignore problems that I didn't like, and more or less wait for them to go away, this approach obviously didn't work too well. One thing that spending a lot of time in the outdoors did was teach me that when you're in the shit, the only thing that you can do is keep on going forward. When it's dark and cold, and you're tired and your feet hurt, sitting down and resting and waiting isn't going to help you, you need to keep on walking to the hut. And there's nobody else who's going to help you; you can't phone a friend and get them to do the walking for you.
The teamwork skills you learn are different to the ones you learn in a soft environment too. Everyone works together for a group benefit, because you're all stuck there together.
I've never served in the military, but from the people I know that have, they pretty much learn to take the same attitude. I think that these experiences are something that everyone should have exposure to earlier in life. I've had some experiences where I was absolutely miserable at the time, but in retrospect have been very powerful character building and learning experiences. I spent a week cold and wet in the rain, with a wet tent and a wet sleeping bag on Outward Bound and for 2 nights I was sleeping on an open sailboat and managed about 3 hours of sleep total, I hated it at the time, but it was one of the most character building experiences of my life in retrospect.
It might be one of the cases where correlation doesn't imply causation. For an objective study, we would need to assign children to groups randomly. Otherwise, we can miss various obscure selection effects. (For example, if children who are more likely to be scouts, are also likely to be from a particular socioeconomic background).
Definitely. This is exactly the sort of study you strongly expect the causal conclusion to not obtain and disappear in a randomized study/genetically-sensitive design (anxiety and other mental issues are highly heritable, of course), right up there with such classic sociology non-results as 'children whose fathers leave do worse' or 'children who experience corporal punishment have more behavioral problems' or 'children whose mothers drank during pregnancy are stupider', both because the actual randomized studies of things like early-childhood interventions like Headstart show no effects or fadeout and because there is tons of self-selection in who goes into scouting and who is able to/chooses to stay in it. (Most of the kids who joined with me dropped out at some point, and the more troubled ones dropped out earliest.) Like most of these results, I expect most of the correlation would disappear if you compared siblings, or better yet (but harder to find), discordant twins, or used polygenic scores of genetic risk for anxiety disorders. This study couldn't do it because they took a one-week sample of UK births so no siblings and too few twins, but I'm sure a twin registry or the UK Biobank or someone has asked about extracurriculars like scouting.
They analysed data from a long-running study of almost 10,000 people across the UK who were born in November 1958.They found that 28 per cent of the study’s participants had been involved in the Scouts or Guides, and that these were 15 per cent less likely to suffer from anxiety or mood disorders at the age of 50 than their peers who didn’t join.Scouts or Guides were not more likely to come from families of any particular social status.However, people from poorer backgrounds do have a relatively higher likelihood of mental illness – but this effect seemed to be reduced or even removed in those who attended Scouts or Guides.
Not only from a socioeconomic point of view, but I would guess that having parents who are involved enough in a child's life to pay for, drive to, and participate in these types of activities is more likely to be a source of a "mental health boost"
>It might be one of the cases where correlation doesn't imply causation.
This was my first thought. I would bet it has more to do with the kind of parents who would enroll their kids in scouts (either for socioeconomic reasons as you mentioned or maybe just whatever else that means about the type of parents they are)
An RCT for this would literally be insane. "Sign up and we might abduct your kid on Thursdays from 7-9pm, as well as 8-10 weekends/year."
Please though, give the researchers some credit. Controlling for demographic factors is sort of the bare minimum for something like this--which they attempted to do by including two "social position" factors in the model.
They also included some factors relating to childhood (presumably pre-Scouts) mental health, which might also help address selection bias.
That's true, but that study will probably never happen. You can expect that to be one of the top comments on any article like this on HN. It's a speed vs. accuracy problem though. The correlation between global temperatures and human CO2 emissions doesn't mean causation, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't useful info paired with common sense.
Definitely agree with that. The socioeconomic background does make a difference.
In my city, the schools in the lower economic status did not even have a scouts/guides program and the ones that did were mostly in schools where the middle class/upper middle class kids went to.
They did try to compensate for such things, but I always wonder if studies can compensate enough. Two households with the same income can have very different socioeconomic status, which may influence both mental health and the amount of scouting.
This is so common nowadays. Looks like clicks are more important than meaningful information and it is sad that such journalism hits thought to be credible entities like BBC.
This. So many studies fail to even mention this now. Next time you see a study on the health benefits of some new type of exercise for example, it's worth checking that the results aren't explained by the healthy group simply being more inclined to exercise (see also: less sleep leads to a shorter life, anxiety leads to health problems, etc)
This is almost certainly the case. Being a scout/guide strongly correlates with parental income in the US at least – I don't know how it is in the UK. But if that is true, the headline might as well be "Being rich provides a mental health boost for life".
I recently went to an army reserve training for 13 days.
It was intense but really great. Days were from 6AM to 21pm. I really appreciated how everything was structured and very organized. Pressure was there and could be felt, the purpose was to learn everything a soldier needs to know, so the purpose was clear and well defined. You could not hang there and pretend that you don't understand why you're learning this or that.
Everything was demonstrated, explained and shown.
What I remember from these two weeks is how 3 guys started threatening me because they thought I reported the showers not being cleaned properly, while I was just talking about using flip flops in showers.
Lack of popularity caught up on me, and a guy threw a fake grenade at me, and I went to emergency care but lost no hearing, but could not complete the training, so I came back disappointed, but still happy of those 2 weeks since most of my scores were okay.
So like usual, those types of programs are great, but unless you prevent people from behaving like predators, people won't take is seriously.
On the flip side I personally found the Scouts to be a safe haven for bullying that, when it happens to a child at the wrong time, will wreck their mental health for years to come.
Yeah, I agree that the Scouts can be a bad place for that kind of things, which is why I think it might not be good for all childrens.
(I had been a Scout for a few year and got a lot of benefits from it, but I know that my brother bullied a lot the younger scouts, so this is a real problem)
I was a boy scout in the late '70s and early '80s. Loved it, and although I was too young to care at the time, my son will probably not join because religion. Yes, they have a "non-religious promise" now, but you're still subjected to it. I don't care for it, and my son will (like I did) get to choose for himself but (unlike me) without being forcibly subjected to the propaganda.
All that said, scouting has changed since I did it. We had a pretty heavy focus on pioneering (my favourite memory is being given an hour to build a suspended platform 2m above the ground before a fictional flood came), first aid (still invaluable today) and orienteering. These days it's the above as well as everything from computers to being a chef and performing arts.
I'm an atheist and a Scout leader in the UK. When writing my programme I always include a spiritual component to it but leave it non-religious. We definitely discuss and explore different religions (in past year visited a Mosque, an Abbey and a Synagogue to learn about their cultures) but never focus hard on a religion or even suggest that holding a religious belief is necessary to be a Scout.
Recently at an event where I renewed my promise I took the Atheist promise which is as follows:
I promise that I will do my best
Uphold our Scout values
Do my duty to the Queen
Help other people
And to keep the Scout laws
I find the majority of Scouters I meet, despite saying the original promise follow this non-denominational one throughout their Scouting. We promote the "worldwide family of Scouts" more than a religious grouping.
If you do look for a Scout group for your son, make sure to talk to the leader there. Different groups approach the issue differently so try to find one that suits you and lets your son avoid being 'forcible subjected to the propaganda' though it can be good for a young person to experience it and make that decision for themselves.
I'm in the UK, former Cub and later a Scout. My daughter has just joined the Brownies, her promise doesn't have anything about God in it but does include something about the Queen. I'd be much happier if it were the other way around; turns out my (small r) republicanism is stronger than my atheism.
My father and I went to cub scouts when I was younger. Very quickly in the first session the religious focus arose and my dad said, "Ok, we're outta here." (We are jewish/atheist)
It's a shame to make something like this religious because I think I would have really enjoyed everything else about the scouts. I'd do the same with my children in the future if the tone is the same.
Funny, here in The Netherlands, my son recently joined as I also had fond memories growing up with the scouts. I don't remember anything really religious except building the make-shift christmas church with the animals and a renegade priest in the woods.
I was actually disappointed that God was left out of the vow (I am catholic) with my son, perhaps I should have asked. I don't know where you live, but do you really think the in your opinion bad things, the frequency of socalled forced prograganda, outweigh the beneficial things like playing outdoors and hiking in nature?
Regarding religous education, you can't choose if you don't know what 'religion' entails. You can't explain it to your child as you have an anti-religious stance (which I fully respect), so he will have to find out for himself anyhow later on if 'choice' if something you value (or not). FWIW, I consider religion a metanarrative and vocabulary for the existential dimension of life, like playing mystical Nordic LARP stories. The sooner a human learns to speak or aprreciate it (in whatever form) the better imho. A vow to the Akela and the troop, fine... it's a vow to community values not to some sort of demi-god or god.
https://twitter.com/fsiefken/status/741687278796431360
If it helps, I was an atheist in the Scouts and the only time religion remotely came up was at the swearing in. I just treated it like the promise to the Queen. This was around seven years ago. We also did _lots_ of pioneering/orienteering.
I'm a den leader for cub scouts in the US. In our pack, we leave the directly-religious requirements up to the family to accomplish in whatever way they see fit (i'm fine if that includes doing nothing). Beyond that, any other would-be religious aspects are really just "be a good human" without any specific references.
At least 1/3 of my oldest son's den is not Christian.
You want him to choose his own path but are keeping him from interacting with others who share a different world view to yourself? It seems more like you've chosen the philosophical and theological positions for him and want to lock him away from other influences.
That would appear to be "religious [fundamentalist] atheism".
Hiding our kids from other ideologies to me is like hiding them from danger (using knives say) - they need exposure to it in order to learn a good approach and how to handle it.
FWIW I was an atheist cub scout (UK), atheist Scout, agnostic Venture Scout, and ultimately a Christian cub leader... but I'm almost certain the exposure to Christian ideals in Scouting had nothing to do with my conversion. The closest we got to theological influence was as teenagers badgering our leaders as to why we had to make a promise to a God we didn't believe in.
Groups vary of course, in the UK the greatest influence is probably the individual leader. Last I knew leaders had to be monotheist, I expect that's changed now.
The church parades of my youth would convince anyone that Christianity were baloney.
tl;dr don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Depends what troop your son joins, the strong surviving troops that have more than a dozen scouts & stable funding are either filled with atheists & have a few openly gay scouts, or are run by the Mormons. I know in my patrol alone 3 to 4 of the scouts were atheists (myself included) and it was not an issue. A well run troop is there to teach you life skills and morals to live your life by, like not torturing POWs, not force or encourage you to adhere to a religion.
I would be more fearful of a poorly run or Mormon troop myself, but attending a meeting or two and talking to the Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster will definitely let you scope it out and get a reading before you give your son a choice of getting involved. I would not deny my own son the opportunity I had in scouting assuming the BSA makes it through the next decade, since it definitely helped me form into the accepting, caring & compassionate person I am today.
Not sure it make sense. How to choose/decide about religion (or the opposite) without knowing about it. It's like refuse to send him to elemental art/math/chemistry class until he choose the university himself.
And the another thing, you have enjoyed it (as a whole package), yet you deny this from your child? Sounds a bit strange.
How does this account for more anxious /less well adjusted kids not becoming scouts in the first place due to the difficulty they already have in being part of heavily conformist group activities ?
I'm going to say that the study probably did uncover the truth. I was in the USA Boy Scouts, and one thing I noticed (and disagree with) is the unspoken limitations placed on participants. For instance, what's the highest assignment one can have as a Boy Scout? Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is always very firmly in control. In Scouts, I learned not to expect to rise to the top, indeed, not to even have ambitions to do so, as this is just not possible. This is probably good for all but a vanishingly small number of people: virtually everyone will not be in command, but will be at most a middle manager. It's probably good for your mental health to not be disappointed when your ambitions to become President, or General or CEO are revealed to be impossible. If you learn "your place" instinctively, you won't spend effort trying to be someone that the system just won't let you be. Good all around, I say.
> "For instance, what's the highest assignment one can have as a Boy Scout? Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is always very firmly in control."
It sounds like you were in a Boy Scout troop being run with a Cub Scout mindset, rather than one operating according to the official rules and goals. I've never seen JASM described as the highest job assignment a scout can hold; most people would say that's the Senior Patrol Leader, while JASM is a transitional job for experienced scouts to learn how to step back from being a direct leader to being a mentor who helps enable the boys to lead their troop.
As someone who came from a single parent family of two boys... I am 40, I have had depression for much of my life. We didn't have much money when I was growing up. I was in the scouts and did the Duke of Edinburgh Award. The single biggest lessons I learned from both are:
1. When you have nothing left to give, sometimes will power and discipline are the only things left in your toolbox that will get you where you need to go.
2. Self reliance - as someone noted earlier in the thread about a cyclist "there is only one way home." It also gave me the skills and a sense of confidence in my ability to survive without any of the trappings of city life. If shit falls to pieces, as having depression has proven to me it can and has and could again, I know I'll survive, regardless of anything - because I have the skills, the will power and discipline to survive the worst.
So... I have a sample size of one that goes against the grain of this research. Of course, being 15% less likely doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
“A child’s world is fresh and new and beautiful, full or wonder and excitement. It is our misfortune that for most of us that clear-eyed vision, that true instinct for what is beautiful and awe-inspiring, is dimmed and even lost before we reach adulthood. If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I should ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life, as an unfailing antidote against the boredom and disenchantment of later year…the alienation from the sources of our strength.”
― Rachel Carson, The Sense of Wonder
The NCS is being beefed up to become almost mandatory for young people. Whereas UK Scouting has quite rightly pointed out they they've been doing this for over 100 years already.
I can first hand (and second hand via my daughter) validate that being an active Scout brings many benefits to the child, and helps shape their identity for life.
I also got a lot of benefits from my years as a Scout, as did my brothers, but I think that it might not be a good fit for all children and some might not get any benefits from it.
I greatly enjoyed my time in the Scouts as a kid in the US. Unfortunately, when I moved to France and joined the scouts there, I found it to be a hotbed for far-right beliefs that I was deeply uncomfortable around.
There's something about getting a bunch of guys out in the forest that brings out the worst in us I suppose. People who I would otherwise assume to be nice talking about ethnic cleansing positively.
It's a strange, macho environment that I didn't expect after such a fun time in the states...
That is really quite sad, outside the Mormon run troops, most are very accepting here in the US, that being said it can get pretty fucked up pretty quick conversation wise. Making me think back to singing "Killing the baby seals" & jokes about the handy ole multicolored abortion scoop & coat hanger, but all in good jest usually.
I do imagine having a few openly gay scouts in our troop and good leadership did keep things from skewing far right, its hard to advocate against a race or orientation when you spend hundreds of hours with people of said race or orientation over the course of a year doing constructive things.
We had a great scout here from Hong Kong on exchange, so not all scouting programs outside the US suck! It may just be a bad troop too, the Mormon troops in the US are like a whole different organization policy wise. Very clannish.
Chronic depression guy here. Was in scouts. Had depressed episodes just as much in as out. I remember one time I was close to suicide, and watching everyone else enjoying themselves made it worse. Would not recommend. I think people with depression wouldn't have gone voluntarily, but I was kind of forced. If you're going through depression scouts is the last fucking place you want to be.
Maybe those who develop it in later years have less chance because you're less likely to join if you're prone to depression in the first place? Mehbeh?
edit: I was never bullied. Had some fun times, but mostly struggling to keep head above the pits of darkness. Good parents. Lucky guy. I always appreciated my position from an abstract point of view.
Best way to describe it: Fatigue is an emotion (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323922/). You can only work through fatigue for so long. That's what it's like with depression, except sleep doesn't refresh you. Wake up and it's still there. Crippling.
Worth pointing out that this refers to Scouting in the UK. While other scouting movements are based on the original UK scouting movement, there are notable differences between all the scouting movements so this doesn't necessarily apply to other movements. Regardless, good to see some solid press for scouting, gave me some of the best experiences of my life and via Gang Show introduced me to performing arts which plays a huge role in my life.
This must vary from country to country. The adventures I participated in with scouts were not even remotely as adventurous as some school trips and holidays.
All I remember from Scouts (USA, 1980s) was continuous fund raising. It was all about learning how to sell candy bars and T-shirts every month. I don't recall ever going on any actual outings in the woods or learning how to tie knots--there was never time amid the constant fund raising.
Interesting article. I just featured a guest on my show talking about computational psycholinguistics and using Language as a Window to the Brain. He became interested in the subject after reading about the famous "nun study" predicting dementia.
https://soundcloud.com/user-925097294/michael-covington
I spent a lot of time in Scouts learning close order drill, indoors. Seriously. Not much use, although definitely true to the "muscular Christianity" that gave rise to Scouting. However, I spent plenty of time in the woods when I didn't have to go to Scouts in the indoor community hall, so that was good. The Hitler Youth movement was modeled after the Scouts, so it would be interesting to see a study there...
Dutch scout here, I've been a scout since I was 7 and I'm now 28 and a cub scout leader (kids aged 7-11).
Being in scouting can be perceived (in NL at least) as for nerds/geeks or 'corny' (don't know what is a good translation for the Dutch 'oubollig')
Especially when the kids hit puberty (the scouts/guides age), this negative image thing among school peers can be a reason for kids to quit.
When I was that age, I didn't really care about much of that sort of talk and really enjoyed my time at scouting. Although there definitely was a negative image among school peers.
The image is changing for the better though. I certainly would not hide it.
I heard some nice stories from the scouts/guides at high school telling they hiked through the woods for the weekend with a backpack and went canyoning etc, while their non-scout peers only played video games inside.
When I was older and went to university, I noticed a lot of people did scouts when they were little kids. Not sure why they quit.
The social aspect is definitely a plus in some professions.
I'm Dutch and have spent several years as a scout myself, and know several others who have done the same. I've never seen anyone getting looked down upon for that. Perhaps you'll be made fun of if the scouts in your country include merit badges and you keep showing them to everyone, but in that case you kind of deserve it...
[+] [-] toomanybeersies|9 years ago|reply
When you're 2 days walk from civilisation, it's pissing down with rain, and you're cold, wet, hungry, and tired, you get a different perspective on life and the "soft" challenges that you face in life back home.
By "soft" challenges I mean things that aren't really life threatening, if you fail to pay the bills, you aren't going to die. If you get soaking wet and get hypothermia in the bush, you could very well die (although it's very unlikely in a structured environment like scouts).
I used to ignore problems that I didn't like, and more or less wait for them to go away, this approach obviously didn't work too well. One thing that spending a lot of time in the outdoors did was teach me that when you're in the shit, the only thing that you can do is keep on going forward. When it's dark and cold, and you're tired and your feet hurt, sitting down and resting and waiting isn't going to help you, you need to keep on walking to the hut. And there's nobody else who's going to help you; you can't phone a friend and get them to do the walking for you.
The teamwork skills you learn are different to the ones you learn in a soft environment too. Everyone works together for a group benefit, because you're all stuck there together.
I've never served in the military, but from the people I know that have, they pretty much learn to take the same attitude. I think that these experiences are something that everyone should have exposure to earlier in life. I've had some experiences where I was absolutely miserable at the time, but in retrospect have been very powerful character building and learning experiences. I spent a week cold and wet in the rain, with a wet tent and a wet sleeping bag on Outward Bound and for 2 nights I was sleeping on an open sailboat and managed about 3 hours of sleep total, I hated it at the time, but it was one of the most character building experiences of my life in retrospect.
[+] [-] Artoemius|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gwern|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jjp|9 years ago|reply
They analysed data from a long-running study of almost 10,000 people across the UK who were born in November 1958. They found that 28 per cent of the study’s participants had been involved in the Scouts or Guides, and that these were 15 per cent less likely to suffer from anxiety or mood disorders at the age of 50 than their peers who didn’t join. Scouts or Guides were not more likely to come from families of any particular social status. However, people from poorer backgrounds do have a relatively higher likelihood of mental illness – but this effect seemed to be reduced or even removed in those who attended Scouts or Guides.
[1] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2112209-scouts-and-guid...
Submitter but not involved in the study
[+] [-] mkrum|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gr3yh47|9 years ago|reply
This was my first thought. I would bet it has more to do with the kind of parents who would enroll their kids in scouts (either for socioeconomic reasons as you mentioned or maybe just whatever else that means about the type of parents they are)
[+] [-] mattkrause|9 years ago|reply
Please though, give the researchers some credit. Controlling for demographic factors is sort of the bare minimum for something like this--which they attempted to do by including two "social position" factors in the model.
They also included some factors relating to childhood (presumably pre-Scouts) mental health, which might also help address selection bias.
[+] [-] salmonet|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lonewolf_ninja|9 years ago|reply
In my city, the schools in the lower economic status did not even have a scouts/guides program and the ones that did were mostly in schools where the middle class/upper middle class kids went to.
[+] [-] TorKlingberg|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elcct|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Lxr|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mcjiggerlog|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] parennoob|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jokoon|9 years ago|reply
It was intense but really great. Days were from 6AM to 21pm. I really appreciated how everything was structured and very organized. Pressure was there and could be felt, the purpose was to learn everything a soldier needs to know, so the purpose was clear and well defined. You could not hang there and pretend that you don't understand why you're learning this or that.
Everything was demonstrated, explained and shown.
What I remember from these two weeks is how 3 guys started threatening me because they thought I reported the showers not being cleaned properly, while I was just talking about using flip flops in showers.
Lack of popularity caught up on me, and a guy threw a fake grenade at me, and I went to emergency care but lost no hearing, but could not complete the training, so I came back disappointed, but still happy of those 2 weeks since most of my scores were okay.
So like usual, those types of programs are great, but unless you prevent people from behaving like predators, people won't take is seriously.
[+] [-] ben1040|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway1892|9 years ago|reply
(I had been a Scout for a few year and got a lot of benefits from it, but I know that my brother bullied a lot the younger scouts, so this is a real problem)
[+] [-] Spearchucker|9 years ago|reply
All that said, scouting has changed since I did it. We had a pretty heavy focus on pioneering (my favourite memory is being given an hour to build a suspended platform 2m above the ground before a fictional flood came), first aid (still invaluable today) and orienteering. These days it's the above as well as everything from computers to being a chef and performing arts.
[+] [-] allyjweir|9 years ago|reply
I'm an atheist and a Scout leader in the UK. When writing my programme I always include a spiritual component to it but leave it non-religious. We definitely discuss and explore different religions (in past year visited a Mosque, an Abbey and a Synagogue to learn about their cultures) but never focus hard on a religion or even suggest that holding a religious belief is necessary to be a Scout.
Recently at an event where I renewed my promise I took the Atheist promise which is as follows:
I promise that I will do my best Uphold our Scout values Do my duty to the Queen Help other people And to keep the Scout laws
I find the majority of Scouters I meet, despite saying the original promise follow this non-denominational one throughout their Scouting. We promote the "worldwide family of Scouts" more than a religious grouping.
If you do look for a Scout group for your son, make sure to talk to the leader there. Different groups approach the issue differently so try to find one that suits you and lets your son avoid being 'forcible subjected to the propaganda' though it can be good for a young person to experience it and make that decision for themselves.
[+] [-] tomgp|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] udfalkso|9 years ago|reply
It's a shame to make something like this religious because I think I would have really enjoyed everything else about the scouts. I'd do the same with my children in the future if the tone is the same.
[+] [-] fsiefken|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] proaralyst|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrexroad|9 years ago|reply
I'm a den leader for cub scouts in the US. In our pack, we leave the directly-religious requirements up to the family to accomplish in whatever way they see fit (i'm fine if that includes doing nothing). Beyond that, any other would-be religious aspects are really just "be a good human" without any specific references.
At least 1/3 of my oldest son's den is not Christian.
[+] [-] pbhjpbhj|9 years ago|reply
That would appear to be "religious [fundamentalist] atheism".
Hiding our kids from other ideologies to me is like hiding them from danger (using knives say) - they need exposure to it in order to learn a good approach and how to handle it.
FWIW I was an atheist cub scout (UK), atheist Scout, agnostic Venture Scout, and ultimately a Christian cub leader... but I'm almost certain the exposure to Christian ideals in Scouting had nothing to do with my conversion. The closest we got to theological influence was as teenagers badgering our leaders as to why we had to make a promise to a God we didn't believe in.
Groups vary of course, in the UK the greatest influence is probably the individual leader. Last I knew leaders had to be monotheist, I expect that's changed now.
The church parades of my youth would convince anyone that Christianity were baloney.
tl;dr don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
[+] [-] moyta|9 years ago|reply
I would be more fearful of a poorly run or Mormon troop myself, but attending a meeting or two and talking to the Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster will definitely let you scope it out and get a reading before you give your son a choice of getting involved. I would not deny my own son the opportunity I had in scouting assuming the BSA makes it through the next decade, since it definitely helped me form into the accepting, caring & compassionate person I am today.
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] radicsge|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zzzeek|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bediger4000|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wtallis|9 years ago|reply
It sounds like you were in a Boy Scout troop being run with a Cub Scout mindset, rather than one operating according to the official rules and goals. I've never seen JASM described as the highest job assignment a scout can hold; most people would say that's the Senior Patrol Leader, while JASM is a transitional job for experienced scouts to learn how to step back from being a direct leader to being a mentor who helps enable the boys to lead their troop.
[+] [-] jwdunne|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 77pt77|9 years ago|reply
I'm being a bit facetious but there seems to be at least a correlation.
Bullies live happier lives.
[+] [-] balabaster|9 years ago|reply
1. When you have nothing left to give, sometimes will power and discipline are the only things left in your toolbox that will get you where you need to go.
2. Self reliance - as someone noted earlier in the thread about a cyclist "there is only one way home." It also gave me the skills and a sense of confidence in my ability to survive without any of the trappings of city life. If shit falls to pieces, as having depression has proven to me it can and has and could again, I know I'll survive, regardless of anything - because I have the skills, the will power and discipline to survive the worst.
So... I have a sample size of one that goes against the grain of this research. Of course, being 15% less likely doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
[+] [-] kpennell|9 years ago|reply
“A child’s world is fresh and new and beautiful, full or wonder and excitement. It is our misfortune that for most of us that clear-eyed vision, that true instinct for what is beautiful and awe-inspiring, is dimmed and even lost before we reach adulthood. If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I should ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life, as an unfailing antidote against the boredom and disenchantment of later year…the alienation from the sources of our strength.” ― Rachel Carson, The Sense of Wonder
[+] [-] Jaruzel|9 years ago|reply
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-introduces-nat...
The NCS is being beefed up to become almost mandatory for young people. Whereas UK Scouting has quite rightly pointed out they they've been doing this for over 100 years already.
I can first hand (and second hand via my daughter) validate that being an active Scout brings many benefits to the child, and helps shape their identity for life.
[+] [-] throwaway1892|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway049|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rtpg|9 years ago|reply
There's something about getting a bunch of guys out in the forest that brings out the worst in us I suppose. People who I would otherwise assume to be nice talking about ethnic cleansing positively.
It's a strange, macho environment that I didn't expect after such a fun time in the states...
[+] [-] moyta|9 years ago|reply
I do imagine having a few openly gay scouts in our troop and good leadership did keep things from skewing far right, its hard to advocate against a race or orientation when you spend hundreds of hours with people of said race or orientation over the course of a year doing constructive things.
We had a great scout here from Hong Kong on exchange, so not all scouting programs outside the US suck! It may just be a bad troop too, the Mormon troops in the US are like a whole different organization policy wise. Very clannish.
[+] [-] cairo_x|9 years ago|reply
Maybe those who develop it in later years have less chance because you're less likely to join if you're prone to depression in the first place? Mehbeh?
edit: I was never bullied. Had some fun times, but mostly struggling to keep head above the pits of darkness. Good parents. Lucky guy. I always appreciated my position from an abstract point of view.
Best way to describe it: Fatigue is an emotion (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323922/). You can only work through fatigue for so long. That's what it's like with depression, except sleep doesn't refresh you. Wake up and it's still there. Crippling.
[+] [-] ck425|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] logingone|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryandrake|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] redcalx|9 years ago|reply
http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2016/10/05/jech-2016-20789...
[+] [-] gina650|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Nomentatus|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Luc|9 years ago|reply
Apparently it's looked down upon enough that it's best to keep it quiet, especially if you're trying to get a room in a house rented by students.
Can a Dutch person comment on this? Is this true, and if so, why?
[+] [-] ragebol|9 years ago|reply
Being in scouting can be perceived (in NL at least) as for nerds/geeks or 'corny' (don't know what is a good translation for the Dutch 'oubollig')
Especially when the kids hit puberty (the scouts/guides age), this negative image thing among school peers can be a reason for kids to quit. When I was that age, I didn't really care about much of that sort of talk and really enjoyed my time at scouting. Although there definitely was a negative image among school peers.
The image is changing for the better though. I certainly would not hide it.
I heard some nice stories from the scouts/guides at high school telling they hiked through the woods for the weekend with a backpack and went canyoning etc, while their non-scout peers only played video games inside.
When I was older and went to university, I noticed a lot of people did scouts when they were little kids. Not sure why they quit.
The social aspect is definitely a plus in some professions.
[+] [-] Thiez|9 years ago|reply