In having served almost 10 years in prison for drugs. I can say that medium and maximum security prisons are often a breeding ground for killers, and dangerous people.
Young kids who have done something incredibly stupid usually end up in these places. They are then immediately put in a situation to fuck or fight. This behavior will often escalate to extreme violence or to be broken psychologically, then owned by other inmates, bought and sold like property. Can that kind of behavior be unlearned? I doubt it... I would argue that at best, people can only learn to do something better, but always lurking in the background.
This is only one of many of the bizarre insanities of prison life. I personally don't disagree with the idea of punishment or prison. I would however say that prisons are extremely dysfunctional.
I call prison "criminal university". It's just fucking stupid.
We get a whole bunch of violent / profession criminals together so they can learn from each other and build their networks. Then brand them as criminals so they can't get a job when they come out, thus ensuring they reoffend. Oh and we incarcerate for non violent crimes, so entry level criminals have the opportunity to learn from the best and progress their career.
It seems that there are many unreported rapes in American prisons. When you read the real stories and how wardens don't care or enable such system, your faith in human nature is over. You realize how fucked up bureocrats are. If Americans – liberals and conservatives – truly cared about human rights they would have started a riot about such issues years ago. They set up a mass whining for the new president of US in less than 24 hours, people clearly don't care about the inhuman treatment of prisoners. Read the testimony of activist Stephen Donaldson. http://articles.latimes.com/1994-05-20/news/ls-60064_1_priso...
I've never been to prison but when I read this article I feel despondent. Here are people asking for some really tiny, minor things. The whole argument is predicated on the idea that prison is about rehabilitation. It's not. Prison is about destroying people. Punishing them for having the audacity to exist after revealing the fact that their identity does not fit the dominant narrative.
I am fundamentally opposed to prison in all but the most extreme cases. I also happen to believe a bunch of other things that would also see me branded as a radical by society, but I digress. Prison is fundamentally destructive as an institution. It is slavery by another name and it must be dismantled, though I don't know how we begin the process.
As Bryan Stevenson says, a person is more than the worst mistake they've made. The inhumanity of American prisons is reprehensible, and limits the potential of our most vulnerable populations. Imagine if Obama has been imprisoned for smoking a joint in his really years. Is that moment of indiscretion worth voiding a whole life?
For those interested in keeping up with our contributing to the effort to fix the US prison system, please check out the Ella Baker center, http://ellabakercenter.org. Started by Van Jones twenty years ago, they've been on the forefront of resisting unnecessary prison expansions, reducing the rate at which juveniles are put in prison, and more.
The problem is we the people. We treat anyone in prison or with a government label of felon, sex offender etc. as less than human being. I can't blame the prison university.
Thanks for sharing this. I would be interested to read more about it. People like who have not been counting their years migh have some imagination, but imagination does not replace experience. Perhaps you should make a write up of your time and observations.
>>Young kids who have done something incredibly stupid
>>They are then immediately put in a situation to fuck or fight.
IMHO this aspect of prison life is common knowledge. I wonder how incredibly stupid one has to be to risk getting jailed. And looking at the numbers that is not a marginal phenomenon.
It's not just about welfare, its also about political power. For example, New York houses tens of thousands of prisoners from New York City in various upstate prison towns. The population of these prisoners is counted towards the populations of these upstate towns, even though the prisoners cannot vote and aren't from that area. For purposes of gerrymandering, funding, and anything else related to population these prisoners are literally political ammunition. This added clout puts representatives in the statehouse that exist only to flood the prisons with more prisoners, completely beholden to prison guard unions and other prison-related industries. They spend their time blocking any sort of logical criminal reform, marijuana legalization, or anything else that would slow the steady stream of prisoners. Its a corrupt system to the core.
> Immediately they are yelled at by officers to strip naked, get ‘nuts to butts,’ and after being searched they are kept naked for several minutes until they are issued some boxers...
is true. Boah, how can everybody yell at the 'bad behaviour' of Trump and Clinton and look away here?
I agree, it's pretty sick. I can see how this sort of behaviour can become normalised, hard to remove and in some cases part of what the public expect from the prison experience. Many people see prison as a place to be punished, so it's easy for them to rationalise any sort of demeaning or dehumanising treatment as part of the package - "well he/she should've thought about that before they broke the law..." etc
In addition if you're a politician you're not going to win votes by campaigning for better conditions in prisons, now matter how you spin it.
I think we all pretty much know inmates are treated poorly, and while it is most certainly a tragedy, we are a) unable to meaningfully change their situations in the short or medium term and b) have more directly effecting issues that take priority.
Why is it that all the successful companies in the private prison industry are terrible for the inmates? The client is the state, and the state doesn't care about costs associated with caring for inmates, right?
Is there any way to turn that on its head? To... uh, "disrupt" some small part of this?
I spent my afternoon hanging out with an ex-con and entrepreneur I met through Defy Ventures. They're a great organization that are giving second chances to the incarcerated. If you're looking for a practical way to make a difference, check out https://defyventures.org and sign up as a mentor. If you live in the bay area, they have a day trip to Avenal State Prison coming up next month and are looking for volunteers to help as business coaches.
Today I asked this entrepreneur for his perspective on what needs to change in our judicial system. Not surprisingly, he gave me a long list of things that are broken, including the corrupting influence of money which incentivizes tough laws and full prisons. And the money which allows people with money to walk away with a slap on the wrist for committing the exact same crime that put him away for years.
When he was released, he was scared to leave prison. He shared how the free world is terrifying to those who've been incarcerated for years. He'd been locked up in high school and never had a chance to get a proper education. He couldn't find anyone to hire him. He couldn't find anyone who'd even rent him an apartment with a felony on his record. The only people who reached out to him were his old gang members. Imagine spending the majority of your life behind bars and then being thrown into a world with smart phones and the internet -- neither of which existed when you were locked up.
Many of us in this community agree on how unfair the judicial system is in America. Many of us believe in the concept of second chances and redemption. And many of us (myself included) could do a better job at demonstrating that belief with our actions.
I wonder why there are no private non-profit prisons.
There are many states that allow private prisons. There have been multiple articles about how awful these prisons are. Why not try to open a non-profit prison where gov't funds are supplemented with donations and focusing on rehabilitation and humane living conditions. Then we both improve the lives of some inmates, and can more effectively compare outcomes.
Because the amount available per prisioner per day is so low that a non-profit prison could not do much better. It is not like the for-profit prisions are running on profit margins of 50%.
> If somebody has a drug problem we treat their addiction, if they are aggressive we provide anger management, if they have got money problems we give them debt counselling. So we try to remove whatever it was that caused the crime. The inmate himself or herself must be willing to change but our method has been very effective. Over the last 10 years, our work has improved more and more.
> Fewer than 10% then return to prison after their release. In England and Wales, and in the United States, roughly half of those serving short sentences reoffend within two years, and the figure is often higher for young adults.
There seems to be a pretty decisive anti-prison circle jerk in this thread. It's a trend that is very common among progressives, common enough that I think we could do something about it.
Does anyone want to say things in support of prison? If we revamp the prison system, what things should we keep? What do prisons do right?
And, what are the next steps for a community willing to invest in changes to our criminal management? How do we make a difference?
Prisons should basically be a mix between a school and a mental institution. If you are a loser and fucked up, your personal issues should be treated and you should get into a position of not being a loser any more (e.g. get a regular degree, apprenticeship, on which it does not say "done in prison"). You should have to stand up every day and have a normal workday to get used to that.
You should have to stay there for as long as you are a threat to society or as long as your situation has not changed and it is likely that you will commit the crime again.
So everything that is already that should be kept, everything else we can get rid of. I would personally say, start with socializing them again, then we have an incentive to reduce prison populations by keeping people out, who do not belong there in the first place. As always, when I make this comments I am a hopeless optimist: Do not worry, it is already happening.
Also something to cheer you up, America: Where do you think ISIS comes from? If you look for a group of losers, just turn to your local (on HN often praised) European prison.
I don't think people here is anti-prison, just that they disagree with how prisons fail to operate as correctional/rehabilitative facilities and instead produce more hardened criminals.
There should be two types of prisons; one for people that will be released one day and one for people that will never be released. The never-to-be-released ones can be the nastist hellholes (if the aim is punishment), but the to-be-released ones need to concentrate on making sure that the prisioners are less likely to offend again once released.
I have often thought the solution to the reoffending problem is to fill the prisioners day with heaps of novel activities so that each day is spent learning new things (doesn't really matter what as long as it is not criminal). The aim would be that by the time the prisioner has finished their sentence their old life and self will be forgotten. The human brain only has so much capacity and if you fill it with enough novelty you will overwrite all the old bad information and behaviours.
VR has the ability to make this cheap and effective.
The never-to-be-released ones can be the nastist hellholes (if the aim is punishment)
I object. They're still human, and as they have been deprived of their freedom, we (society) have been entrusted with caring for them. Even the death penalty (quite flawed as it is) may be better in some sense, morally, than "the nastiest hellholes".
What I find amazing here is the pathetic modesty of all the requests. It's all about selling onion powder in the commissary or granting model prisoners the right to wear non-white shirts, not (say) the abuse of plea bargaining or the ludicrous length of mandatory sentences.
One thing that kills me about prisons is that they achieve exactly the opposite of what they are supposed to be achieving. They add more psychological trauma, they create more anger and they force people to focus on what they've done in the past instead of what they could be doing different in the future.
The problem is that there are always more important things to worry about in our society than reforming prisons. Not much has changed since prisons have been invented, really. Recidivism is unacceptably high. The solution is not more discipline. It's more respect, more compassion, more dignity, more learning, and more showing that life doing other things is as rewarding if not more than doing the things that lead to prison.
Prisoners should be measured. The same way that some companies have performance measurements for its employees, prisons should have behavioural measurement for the prisoners. If the behaviour improves based on a certain grade, then the prisoners get rewarded, otherwise they get punished
How about measuring the prison instead, reform more crooks, the guards get a pay bonus. However, knowing how incentive schemes are normally gamed, they will probably resort to lobotomising the inmates.
so sad. im glad that in the age of the internet stories like this can come out and reach many people. I just hope that the next generation of leaders who grew up on the internet exposed to many differing ideas will have the courage/determination to find real solustions fix problems like this.
The notion that there should be no prisons at all is nuts in my view, there must be a way for people to protect themselves from others who repeatedly act violently.
But the fact that prisoners frequently have to face rape is sick and shows how dysfunctional the current system is. I even read some time ago an article that stated that the US is the only country in the world where more men than women are raped. (due to the fact that so many men are raped in prison)
What I personally believe would be a good way to treat this issue is to have prisoners work in the private sector while their payment will largely be used to pay for prison and to repay their victims for the damage they have caused them. The prisoner is set free once he has paid for all damages. (or as much as is reasonably possible)
Prisons will have an incentive to make sure that their prisoners earn as much as possible (trainings and education), victims will receive payments for damages and the prisoners themselves will have an incentive to get out of prison as soon as possible. Of course this can't be done with every type of felony and there's the question if damages are always accurate.
Also with this approach some types of felonies cannot be punished. One example would be drug abuse. You are only harming yourself and since no third party can claim damages it also would not be punished. (this alone would hugely reduce prison population)
You could even make the case that selling drugs would be legalised since there's clearly a buyer willing to buy and consume it who's not hurting any third parties directly by his choice.
I believe it is more reasonable to have prison sentences reflect the damage caused instead of ideology and prison life be more about making it up to the victims (as far as it is possible) instead of creating the most nasty, brutal place imaginable and having people suffer there.
It's probably also a better lesson for an offender to have to repay someone for destroying his car than subjecting him to repeated rapes which will likely break him psychologically.
I'm all for prison reform, but other than the bits where officers do demeaning things to the prisoners, this really just becomes a list of things that prisoners feel would make their lives more comfortable.
Well yeah, no shit. Of course they want it better in there. If they got all this, they'd eventually be complaining that they should have computers and playstations.
Prison isn't supposed to be torture (physically or mentally) but it's also not supposed to be better than poor people have it. If poor people can't be taken care of to the point they have these things (and I think they should!) then I don't think starting with the prisons is the right way to go.
You're correct that most of these are asking for prison to be a more tolerable place to live. Making prison a rough experience should encourage inmates to avoid crimes which will send them back. The article's author contends that the current conditions in the prison where he serves his time re-enforce criminal behavior and empowers "gang recruiters, extortion, and other threats" by depriving prisoners. He has the advantage of seeing what happens each day, but has a sample-size issue in that he's only experienced a small number of prisons. I would be interested in seeing his proposals tested in a controlled studies. None of them seems difficult or expensive to implement.
> If poor people can't be taken care of to the point they have these things (and I think they should!) then I don't think starting with the prisons is the right way to go.
If you really care about this, then you should advocate that poor people don't produce children anymore so that at least "born poor", that is a common cause of poverty, is mostly eliminated.
[+] [-] nknwn|9 years ago|reply
Young kids who have done something incredibly stupid usually end up in these places. They are then immediately put in a situation to fuck or fight. This behavior will often escalate to extreme violence or to be broken psychologically, then owned by other inmates, bought and sold like property. Can that kind of behavior be unlearned? I doubt it... I would argue that at best, people can only learn to do something better, but always lurking in the background.
This is only one of many of the bizarre insanities of prison life. I personally don't disagree with the idea of punishment or prison. I would however say that prisons are extremely dysfunctional.
[+] [-] coenhyde|9 years ago|reply
We get a whole bunch of violent / profession criminals together so they can learn from each other and build their networks. Then brand them as criminals so they can't get a job when they come out, thus ensuring they reoffend. Oh and we incarcerate for non violent crimes, so entry level criminals have the opportunity to learn from the best and progress their career.
[+] [-] Red_Tarsius|9 years ago|reply
It seems that there are many unreported rapes in American prisons. When you read the real stories and how wardens don't care or enable such system, your faith in human nature is over. You realize how fucked up bureocrats are. If Americans – liberals and conservatives – truly cared about human rights they would have started a riot about such issues years ago. They set up a mass whining for the new president of US in less than 24 hours, people clearly don't care about the inhuman treatment of prisoners. Read the testimony of activist Stephen Donaldson. http://articles.latimes.com/1994-05-20/news/ls-60064_1_priso...
[+] [-] chongli|9 years ago|reply
I am fundamentally opposed to prison in all but the most extreme cases. I also happen to believe a bunch of other things that would also see me branded as a radical by society, but I digress. Prison is fundamentally destructive as an institution. It is slavery by another name and it must be dismantled, though I don't know how we begin the process.
[+] [-] sdenton4|9 years ago|reply
For those interested in keeping up with our contributing to the effort to fix the US prison system, please check out the Ella Baker center, http://ellabakercenter.org. Started by Van Jones twenty years ago, they've been on the forefront of resisting unnecessary prison expansions, reducing the rate at which juveniles are put in prison, and more.
[+] [-] kashkhan|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwawaycanada|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chappi42|9 years ago|reply
What can (non-american) outsiders do to help fix/improve this situation (in American prisons)?
[+] [-] tn13|9 years ago|reply
The problem is we the people. We treat anyone in prison or with a government label of felon, sex offender etc. as less than human being. I can't blame the prison university.
[+] [-] wuschel|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dorfsmay|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NumberCruncher|9 years ago|reply
>>They are then immediately put in a situation to fuck or fight.
IMHO this aspect of prison life is common knowledge. I wonder how incredibly stupid one has to be to risk getting jailed. And looking at the numbers that is not a marginal phenomenon.
[+] [-] CalChris|9 years ago|reply
$168,000
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/nyregion/citys-annual-c...
Average in the US:
$31,000
https://www.vera.org/publications/the-price-of-prisons-what-...
This isn't about justice. It's about prison guard jobs. It's about welfare.
[+] [-] StanislavPetrov|9 years ago|reply
http://www.demos.org/publication/census-count-and-prisoners-...
[+] [-] sickbeard|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chappi42|9 years ago|reply
> Immediately they are yelled at by officers to strip naked, get ‘nuts to butts,’ and after being searched they are kept naked for several minutes until they are issued some boxers...
is true. Boah, how can everybody yell at the 'bad behaviour' of Trump and Clinton and look away here?
[+] [-] smcl|9 years ago|reply
In addition if you're a politician you're not going to win votes by campaigning for better conditions in prisons, now matter how you spin it.
[+] [-] dimino|9 years ago|reply
Why is it that all the successful companies in the private prison industry are terrible for the inmates? The client is the state, and the state doesn't care about costs associated with caring for inmates, right?
Is there any way to turn that on its head? To... uh, "disrupt" some small part of this?
[+] [-] joshfraser|9 years ago|reply
Today I asked this entrepreneur for his perspective on what needs to change in our judicial system. Not surprisingly, he gave me a long list of things that are broken, including the corrupting influence of money which incentivizes tough laws and full prisons. And the money which allows people with money to walk away with a slap on the wrist for committing the exact same crime that put him away for years.
When he was released, he was scared to leave prison. He shared how the free world is terrifying to those who've been incarcerated for years. He'd been locked up in high school and never had a chance to get a proper education. He couldn't find anyone to hire him. He couldn't find anyone who'd even rent him an apartment with a felony on his record. The only people who reached out to him were his old gang members. Imagine spending the majority of your life behind bars and then being thrown into a world with smart phones and the internet -- neither of which existed when you were locked up.
Many of us in this community agree on how unfair the judicial system is in America. Many of us believe in the concept of second chances and redemption. And many of us (myself included) could do a better job at demonstrating that belief with our actions.
[+] [-] Barraketh|9 years ago|reply
There are many states that allow private prisons. There have been multiple articles about how awful these prisons are. Why not try to open a non-profit prison where gov't funds are supplemented with donations and focusing on rehabilitation and humane living conditions. Then we both improve the lives of some inmates, and can more effectively compare outcomes.
[+] [-] danieltillett|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nickpsecurity|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rand005|9 years ago|reply
> If somebody has a drug problem we treat their addiction, if they are aggressive we provide anger management, if they have got money problems we give them debt counselling. So we try to remove whatever it was that caused the crime. The inmate himself or herself must be willing to change but our method has been very effective. Over the last 10 years, our work has improved more and more.
> Fewer than 10% then return to prison after their release. In England and Wales, and in the United States, roughly half of those serving short sentences reoffend within two years, and the figure is often higher for young adults.
[+] [-] Taek|9 years ago|reply
Does anyone want to say things in support of prison? If we revamp the prison system, what things should we keep? What do prisons do right?
And, what are the next steps for a community willing to invest in changes to our criminal management? How do we make a difference?
[+] [-] allendoerfer|9 years ago|reply
You should have to stay there for as long as you are a threat to society or as long as your situation has not changed and it is likely that you will commit the crime again.
So everything that is already that should be kept, everything else we can get rid of. I would personally say, start with socializing them again, then we have an incentive to reduce prison populations by keeping people out, who do not belong there in the first place. As always, when I make this comments I am a hopeless optimist: Do not worry, it is already happening.
Also something to cheer you up, America: Where do you think ISIS comes from? If you look for a group of losers, just turn to your local (on HN often praised) European prison.
[+] [-] totalZero|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fny|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danieltillett|9 years ago|reply
I have often thought the solution to the reoffending problem is to fill the prisioners day with heaps of novel activities so that each day is spent learning new things (doesn't really matter what as long as it is not criminal). The aim would be that by the time the prisioner has finished their sentence their old life and self will be forgotten. The human brain only has so much capacity and if you fill it with enough novelty you will overwrite all the old bad information and behaviours.
VR has the ability to make this cheap and effective.
[+] [-] mmagin|9 years ago|reply
I object. They're still human, and as they have been deprived of their freedom, we (society) have been entrusted with caring for them. Even the death penalty (quite flawed as it is) may be better in some sense, morally, than "the nastiest hellholes".
[+] [-] undersuit|9 years ago|reply
>The aim would be that by the time the prisioner has finished their sentence their old life and self will be forgotten.
I know you're talking about the nice prison here, but if you hold that belief then what happens to the innocent person who has had 50 years of hell?
[+] [-] mmagin|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jpatokal|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mehwoot|9 years ago|reply
I don't think those really have to do directly with prisons though. It's a related topic.
[+] [-] jstoiko|9 years ago|reply
The problem is that there are always more important things to worry about in our society than reforming prisons. Not much has changed since prisons have been invented, really. Recidivism is unacceptably high. The solution is not more discipline. It's more respect, more compassion, more dignity, more learning, and more showing that life doing other things is as rewarding if not more than doing the things that lead to prison.
[+] [-] perfmode|9 years ago|reply
https://www.netflix.com/title/80091741
[+] [-] joggery|9 years ago|reply
Reform could only be somewhere where >90% people are non-criminal e.g. army, monastery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_monkey_effect
[+] [-] TH3R3LL1K|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Vintila|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _audakel|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] transfire|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] verbify|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jlebrech|9 years ago|reply
like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon
[+] [-] DominikR|9 years ago|reply
But the fact that prisoners frequently have to face rape is sick and shows how dysfunctional the current system is. I even read some time ago an article that stated that the US is the only country in the world where more men than women are raped. (due to the fact that so many men are raped in prison)
What I personally believe would be a good way to treat this issue is to have prisoners work in the private sector while their payment will largely be used to pay for prison and to repay their victims for the damage they have caused them. The prisoner is set free once he has paid for all damages. (or as much as is reasonably possible)
Prisons will have an incentive to make sure that their prisoners earn as much as possible (trainings and education), victims will receive payments for damages and the prisoners themselves will have an incentive to get out of prison as soon as possible. Of course this can't be done with every type of felony and there's the question if damages are always accurate.
Also with this approach some types of felonies cannot be punished. One example would be drug abuse. You are only harming yourself and since no third party can claim damages it also would not be punished. (this alone would hugely reduce prison population)
You could even make the case that selling drugs would be legalised since there's clearly a buyer willing to buy and consume it who's not hurting any third parties directly by his choice.
I believe it is more reasonable to have prison sentences reflect the damage caused instead of ideology and prison life be more about making it up to the victims (as far as it is possible) instead of creating the most nasty, brutal place imaginable and having people suffer there.
It's probably also a better lesson for an offender to have to repay someone for destroying his car than subjecting him to repeated rapes which will likely break him psychologically.
[+] [-] KeshandKooley|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] wccrawford|9 years ago|reply
Well yeah, no shit. Of course they want it better in there. If they got all this, they'd eventually be complaining that they should have computers and playstations.
Prison isn't supposed to be torture (physically or mentally) but it's also not supposed to be better than poor people have it. If poor people can't be taken care of to the point they have these things (and I think they should!) then I don't think starting with the prisons is the right way to go.
[+] [-] williadc|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwawaycanada|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chappi42|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] wolfgke|9 years ago|reply
If you really care about this, then you should advocate that poor people don't produce children anymore so that at least "born poor", that is a common cause of poverty, is mostly eliminated.