Whatsapp: Video Calling

[sschueller]

Same day we have this article "Internet Freedom Wanes as Governments Target Messaging, Social Apps (npr.org)" in the front page of HN.

I know Facebook claims to use Whisper systems encryption but how can we blindly trust that this is actually implemented in a closed source system?

Stallman and others have been warning us for many years and we have been brushing it off. Now Snowden pretty much confirmed most of it but we keep going and entangling our wold more into these services.

[Cyph0n]

There are two things that make me trust WhatsApp more than the competition:

1. In the UAE, where VoIP is illegal, the government was not able to selectively block voice traffic since it is indistinguishable from text traffic. So they had to ask WhatsApp to block voice functionality whenever a user is in the UAE.

2. If you lose your phone, you cannot recover your messages. Now, you may claim that they're just not providing a frontend option to do this, but would that make financial sense? You are potentially losing users who want their messages backed up so you can... falsely claim that you don't store messages?

3. Similar to 2), WhatsApp desktop cannot work without your phone being connected, again because that's the only way to access your messages.

[Nux]

It's simple. People are oblivious or just don't give a shit. As long as they can share their cat pictures and so on, it's all fucking dandy.

Something really bad needs to happen to move things in the right direction. Snowden was not enough, clearly.

[davidbielen]

how about: create a website with a random string in the URL, send that URL via whatsapp combined with content that likely triggers many safety bells (at facebook, whatsapp, nsa,...) to a contact, and make sure that contact does not open the URL. create a second website (same domain) with a different URL, also with a random string, and use this to compare. check if first URL gets a hit, and if yes, check if second URL gets same hit. (spoiler alert: first URL will get a hit, second won't ;-D)

[planb]

Is absolute security really something that anyone desires from a general purpose instant messenger?

The government might read my WhatsApp messages - so what? They have been able to listen to my phone calls for ages. If there's something I want to keep private (and there is - it's not like "I have nothing to hide"), I will simply not use WhatsApp or any other communication channel I don't fully trust.

I don't care as long as the owner of the coffee shop I'm currently I cannot read my messages.

[ycmbntrthrwaway]

> but how can we blindly trust that this is actually implemented in a closed source system?

Threema implements validation mode, something similar can be done for other closed source messagers: https://threema.ch/validation/

But nobody can guarantee that encryption works when validation mode is disabled.

[nnnnnn]

I asked the question here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11431878 and there were some good responses.

[pmyjavec]

Great, another app that does the same thing as the other apps that do the same thing.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could use an open, standard protocol and network so I don't need 5 apps installed to communicate with various circles of friends over different mediums.

[nothrabannosir]

After the death of federated im on mobile, this is the closest we get to decentralisation. I'm all for it. The more people are on different platforms, the less any one platform knows about anyone.

Ideally, federation. But bar that, this is better than having everything in one app.

Bonus: this puts the pain in the front, where it should be. If there was ever a chance of getting back to an open protocol, this will be the best way to get there: make the proprietary universe annoying for users.

[oarsinsync]

There's good reasons why we don't have open standard protocols and federation discussed in this blog.

https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/

tl;dr: features features features

[mkagenius]

> Great, another app that does the same thing as the other apps that do the same thing.

Are you serious there? There were billion different apps doing text messaging too before Whatsapp. I don't see any point in dismissing the video chat on the basis that it is not the very first app.

[amelius]

I think the reason, besides the network effect, is that all federated alternatives are lacking in some way. For example, they may be missing one of these features:

- Ease to install

- Beautiful, intuitive GUI

- Always works and looks the same

- Keeps backups

- Zero cost

- Allows over-IP phone calls, now also with video

- Integrates well with phone

[Lx1oG-AWb6h_ZG0]

This is very good news, I'm really tired of how bad Skype's quality has gotten. WhatsApp's voice calls, on the other hand, are almost always crystal clear, often better than even phone calls.

[telesilla]

There is one main reason for Skype's terrible call quality these last years, and that is because it's no longer peer to peer as it was at it's beginning. All Skype calls go through Microsoft's servers, as far as I understand. I expect WhatsApp can make use of P2P (I suppose WebRTC) as I also find the phone calls excellent quality and have come to use it a lot. I'll definitely be ditching Skype very soon once video is proven.

[crdb]

It's the opposite for me. All WhatsApp calls - including to others in Singapore literally less than a mile from me - have a 3 second lag. This is not the case with Skype.

[evacchi]

It's interesting how my opinion is completely opposite. I feel like chat apps tend to get "featuritis" as soon as they become more popular.

[LiquidFlux]

Is the quality of a phone call a high bar? I've always found WhatsApp, Messenger and Skype to provide what sounds like much less compressed audio, occasionally at the cost of latency until the bitrate drops to compensate.

[ungzd]

At least Skype works on desktop.

[flyingramen]

I used video calling (almost) everyday for the past few years. I find FaceTime to be best at video calling even in the face of not the best connectivity. Unfortunately it is limited to Apple devices only. Excited to try WhatsApp for this.

[mathw]

I know why FaceTime wasn't opened like they promised it would be, but I do think it's a big shame. It's 2016 - we should have pervasive standard video calling by now, surely?

[Gustomaximus]

Have you tried hangouts? I find that quite good.

[thewhitetulip]

I remember reading a long time ago that Whatsapp will not include things like calling/video calling and will focus solely on texting. Why is every messaging app doing the exact same thing and why is there no inter-connectivity between them?

[thomasahle]

This. And now that Facebook owns WhatsApp, they could at least integrate those two?

[fwn]

I'd love to know whether it is encrypted.

They promoted their end to end encryption promise for messages, so I think they would've promoted it again if it still were true for the video call feature.

edit:

Google, for example, promised their video calls to be encrypted with Duo. https://blog.google/products/duo/meet-google-duo-simple-1-to...

[jamix]

They most probably use WebRTC for video and voice calling, and you can't have an unencrypted call in WebRTC.

[xfr]

It is end to end encrypted.

[thewhitetulip]

you really believe them?

[planetjones]

FaceTime seems to be the only service which delivers consistently good quality. Skype's video quality was abysmal the last time I used it and the Google app (Duo I think) was the worst ever - infact that one showed the recipient the video flipped vertically. I didn't bother to see if it would be resolved, but instead just uninstalled it. I don't use Whatsapp's audio calls, so I doubt I will use video.

[pritambarhate]

I tried it a couple of times. Video quality was not great. The second time I tried Duo it had weird sound issues. Was completely disappointed. Didn't use it after that.

It's a surprise since it comes from Google. Hangouts has worked more or less OK for me.

[gonvaled]

Google Duo is working very well for me, and it is really easy to use, which is a must when talking with older family members.

Let's see how WhatsApp compares.

[dx034]

I really like that Duo can switch between Wifi and mobile network without reconnecting. However, usability is imo much better with Whatsapp. Duo still doesn't support calls on home screen on iPhones (calls are shown as notifications) and often fails to connect if the other person hasn't used the app for a day. It's annoying to first ask via Whatsapp to open Duo and then call there.

[riprowan]

This is the first I've heard of this app.

What is the point? Isn't this just hangouts all over again?

I can't understand why these companies keep rolling and re-rolling the same apps over and over.

[TheArcane]

You can't individually switch off video on duo.

[pmontra]

Nice to have but I almost never used a video chat any phone app, only a few times on Skype, mostly on desktop. Anyway, probably many people are using this so it's a must have for WhatsApp not to fade away.

But please add bots, unless FB decided that their Messenger is the only platform to survive in the long run and WhatsApp has to die. WhatsApp is still the number one chat in most of Europe and every developer here would like to write bots for it instead of for Messenger and Telegram. It's where our customers and our customers' customers are. Messenger is going to take over if bots get mainstream and you don't support them. My bet is that it will happen next year or never so you're running out of time (or not at all). We'll see.

And if you do implement bot, please copy Messenger: exactly the same API and the same or a very similar UI. That will give you all the Messenger bots from day 1 and developers will love you.

[secfirstmd]

What's the story with encryption of WhatsApp video calls? Can it still be protected via Signal Protocol?

[Angostura]

Sorry, while it requires unrestricted access to all my contacts, I'm not using it.

[thirdsun]

Of course it uses your Contacts. Would you prefer to add your contacts to WhatsApp individually and maintain a second set of mostly duplicated data?

[relics443]

Just because they have access to your contacts doesn't mean they store. Most likely all they do is check to see if they're on WhatsApp.

[herman5]

Since they're one of Twilio's largest customers, I wonder if they're accomplishing Video calling with the new Twilio Video product [1] that's currently in beta

[1] https://www.twilio.com/video

[dx034]

Does anyone know when we can actually use it? They say "over the next days", does that mean we'll have to wait for an update or is the functionality already there and will be unlocked?

[Aoyagi]

Meanwhile, Telegram doesn't even have voice calling...

[LyalinDotCom]

I think its time someone created yet another messaging/video app. We just don't have enough ways to communicate.

[_ao789]

"Hello, can you hear me?" <- will this be the first 3minutes of every WhatsApp call now too? (hint: Skype)

[Maarten88]

I don't understand the priorities of WhatsApp. I don't need video calling.

I need support for bots.

WhatsApp doesn't have it. Meanwhile, Skype, Telegram, Facebook Messenger and Google are where the action is, building great bot support. I want to use WhatsApp, but am using Skype and Telegram now to build a bot.

Bot support could also make WhatsApp viable as a business in the long run as an independent, secure service. Simply make businesses pay for bot accounts.

[tscs37]

No.

Audio Calls on Whatsapp are already bad, not only is there no way to turn them off, the quality just sucks compared to the local mobile network.

I guess same goes to the Video Calls... and honestly, who does video calls from their phone?

[arao]

"Welcome aboard." says WeChat..

[nickik]

Is this end to end encrypted as well?

[padiyar83]

Love it!