I'm a professional photographer with about 16K + Instagram followers.
I used snapchat to stream behind the scenes photos and videos and retouching tutorials, but that was a black box.
Yes, I had comments open and I interacted with my friends and fans, but I couldn't tag anyone, or hashtags, discoverability is a serious issues in that platform.
I started using Instagram stories and now I have the same views per snaps that I had on snapchat plus now I can tag brands/models/makeup artists/ etc.
Instagram is going to EAT snapchat, specially for content creators discoverability is everything.
>but I couldn't tag anyone, or hashtags, discoverability is a serious issues in that platform.
You're looking at it through the lens of a professional photographer, though. When I speak to young people the lack of discovery isn't a concern at all. If anything I'd contest that is one of the reasons Snapchat grew so quickly—you aren't tagged without you realizing it in a friend's picture, your parents aren't searching for your name, etc.
It definitely sounds like Instagram is a better fit for that. But is that really Snapchat's core use case?
There's definitely some overlap in uses, but instagram isn't a complete replacement for Snapchat. And the areas where instagram doesn't cover snapchat, it seems like are snapchat's primary uses.
There are a lot (15+) of people 25 and under in my family and I can tell you every single one of them uses Snapchat. While Instagram Stories very much replicates the general function of Snap, I really want to know some of those engagement numbers based on age, or even geography, and if it really has been all that much of a gut punch since that Instagram feature rolled out.
From a shareholder and advertiser's perspective, Snapchat was already hitting viewership parity with tv's most popular shows nearly 2 years ago. 30% of millenials are on Snapchat, one of the most expensive demographics to reach through television. Like it or hate it, Snapchat hit critical mass a long time ago.
This. IMO Snapchat is very hard to use for any kind of business application since it has no discoverability whatsoever.
My wife has 90k+ followers on Instagram and started using Snapchat up to the point where she had 4k+ views a day. When instagram launched the new stories thing she started using it slowly and has pretty much stopped using Snapchat now.
I always told that for her use case Snapchat wasn't a good fit because there is no way other than entering the username or scanning a qr code for her to be found and you have to rely on people not being lazy to add you.
Anyway, I still can't understand why hasn't Snapchat added some sort of search or trending profiles yet.
Well you were using the wrong tool for the job. Snapchat is for sharing transient data with a small intimate group. It's not meant for business at all. Instagram is designed for the kind of thing you just described using Snapchat for.
It's just like if you displayed your art at your local bar instead of the local art museum, and complained that only your friends saw it instead of new audiences.
Instagram still has very strict rules about nudety which makes it's a no go for the adult industry and has even ruffled quiet a few feathers with fashion designers and other content creators who may show the occasional nipple even in a none sexual way.
plus now I can tag brands/models/makeup artists/ etc.
I think snap do not give this option because they want have control about who pays and who get paid using the platform. At least for now.
Maybe their next step will be in this direction, making something similar to youtube. Sharing the revenue of ads with a larger pool of content creators.
Really interested in learning if Snap is more Facebook or Twitter.
This could be a big litmus test for the tech IPO.
2 things I'm very interested in:
1) If the rumors are correct that they are looking to raise 4 Billion at a roughly $40 Billion valuation.
If you assume that their absolute pie in the sky max valuation ever is similar to what facebook is now, roughly 340 Billion, then that's not alot of upside for investors for a company that probably isn't yet profitable.
2) I've heard that the founders have locked up voting control. I'm always half watching companies like this to find out just how far they can push wall street before wall street says no more. Mark Zuckerberg and the Google founders have done a great job of managing their companies while maintaining voter control.
I want to see a tech company where the founders own voting control but manage the company like Twitter, this is not a positive reference.
If Snap get's their rumored IPO price but can't grow revenue then they could be the poster child for SEC minority shareholder reform, but then again President Trump has said he wants to remove regulation in the markets so.....
Twitter had a very dedicated and professional audience, journalists, investors, etc who used their product and they couldn't live up to expectations.
Snap now has to better than twitter and they'll have to do it by taking advertising dollars from Google and Facebook. That's a tough fight to get into.
So people are super hyped about the Snapchat Spectacles. I get the excitement, they are Google Glass at a proletariat price, so owning them doesn't make you a GlassHole. Snapchat is one of the most popular LA Unicorns. Everyone is waiting for them to go public.
So how did they release their big hardware add on? Limited time vending machines. They are spinning it as cool, but with XMas, their supposed capitalization and user base, it's a pretty big warning that these are not released through a consumer channel. They are probably experiencing major headwinds keeping them out of commercialization, or a major cash crisis.
I'm want to side with the cash crisis. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't think their balance sheet is going to be very strong, if the fundamentals were there, Amazon and Best Buy would be distributing the product. Sure, tell me its a marketing strategy for exclusivity, I agree, it's great. It should have been done over the summer, moving into store shelves last week for Xmas sales.
My personal hypothesis on this is that they're eating a loss at the price range right now and are trying to figure out if people are interested in the spectacles and at what price.
Many people here are underestimating Snapchat. It is the only app where I enjoy the ads. They are not intrusively at all, most of the time they show up at the end of a story or between 2 user's stories. They are all video ads which is the best form of getting attention (atleast for me) and interacting with the ad is as simple as swiping up on the video. If it is an app install ad: Swipe up and it brings up the App Store download view. If it's a shopping ad: swipe up and its bring a web view of the advertiser's ecommerce site. It is great! Facebook is boring and repetitive, Snapchat is lively and fun to use. I see it going extremely far but it will be tough to reach Facebook-scale.
> $250 million and $350 million this year, according to those documents.
That's pretty impressive but is it a sustainable source of income?
Seems like this socio-consumer space is extremely volatile. Facebook & Twitter was the last platform I interacted with....3 years ago. Haven't even used instgram, vine, now snap chat. The fact that billions of dollars were spent buying out instagram, whatsapp, I wonder how facebook is aiming to make back all that cash expenditure. Linkedin barely gets a pass because it's enterprisey and Microsoft validated by buying it out.
Take my view with a grain of salt as I consider these social networking type of websites our generation's "cigarette" -everyone is doing it and nobody wants to stop and examine it's impact on the quality of your life.
I guess when everybody is around me is so concerned with the avatar version of themselves online and how they think they are perceived, therein emerges a divergence of values and attitude towards such mediums and the type of personalities it generates that leaks into real life (which I steer away from).
a) Why they need so much money? Don't tell me it's to produce some spectacles
b) Why they are worth so much? I get that they have an interesting user base (young people), but they are having a hard time making money, aren't they?
That $19b WhatsApp purchase hasn't exactly earned a lot of money yet, has it? It's still a very long bet, especially with Facebook being forbidden to collect the data now in some countries.
a) To build an ad business capable of handling $100m of ads. You need massive investments in sales, infrastructure, tools, etc. to build a business like that
b) They have one of the fastest growing user bases in the social space, their users spends an astounding amount of time on the app (estimated at 30 minutes per day), and their user base is the most targeted demographic for demographics. Also they have literally barely turned on the advertising machine and their initial forays have already hit a revenue run rate of $300M+.
So essentially they have a shitload of eyeballs, the eyeballs are growing massively, their eyeballs spend a lot of time on their app, and advertisers love those eyeballs. Their business valuation is based on massive potential, not current revenues, but their advertising efforts already show huge promise. There is almost no startup with anything close to their engagement, growth, and monetization potential and the last company that looked like them was Facebook. Hence, the HYPE.
WhatsApp was a possible existential threat to FB (usage moving from streams of posts from many many "friends" to more direct conversation in smaller chat groups), so $19B when spread across the many years of "non-death" of the company can be recuperated even if they don't earn a dime from WhatsApp thereafter.
"Need" is probably the wrong word. I imagine they're trying to maximize their return: sell enough stock to make lots of money, but not so much as to flood the market.
b) Why they are worth so much?
That's the question, and it really does boil down to "they're worth what people will pay". One side might argue that it's a game of musical chairs--someone assuming they can find a greater sucker to buy into it for more money down the road. Another side might be that they have a massive user base of people just starting to make money (high school & college graduates) who are willing to spend $5/mo on stickers and filters and stuff, as well as watch some ads.
If they can effectively maintain their audience (a huge "if"), they will make lots of money. If they lose them to the next funny app, then they'll be a gigantic bust. So far they've continued to grow.... (Personally I think they're trying to IPO before the bottom falls out, but hey, what do I know)
A) They have the capacity to deliver state-of-the-art technology and can easily dominate with a surge of money for mass-production of electronics. On a whim they could deliver unparalleled face recognition for instance: https://hackernoon.com/is-snap-inc-building-a-wearable-face-...
B) They're worth so much because on any given day, the app reaches 41 percent of all 18-to-34-year-olds in the United States. They have amazing potential as a platform for advertising, recruiting, sales, and so much more. They're probably not making money yet because they're not done honey-potting everybody like Facebook circa-2008.
You may be right about a bloated WhatsApp $19B price, because the Snapchat data is much more valuable and going for $4B.
Not sure if it's worth $25 billion, but I have noticed that it is the "Facebook" for younger generations, and that when they use it, they use it all the time, not just a few times a day like other social media. It's a way to share their lives - in real time - with their friends and followers, and have their friends do the same.
I won't tell you to 'produce some spectacles' but Snapchat has been incredibly blunt about their goals. They claim to be reinventing the camera, and with AR, that probably means lots of R&D $. So probably not spectacles, but their next camera products.
"Need" money? You mean "want" money, right? And there's no wrong reason to want money since this is the US. Maybe he'll turn into a huge benefactor like Bill Gates and return all that money back to charitable foundations, etc.
Maybe I'm alone here, but I love the way Evan and Snapchat, er Snap, communicate as a company. They are incredibly tight lipped, but also very honest and blunt. They've talked about this IPO for years, and made no secret about becoming a camera company.
On the other hand, I find it extremely annoying how Team Snapchat routinely sends elaborately animated pre-prepared snaps that are impossible to make in the official app. Eat your own dogfood, guys!
I agree. Tight lips with "information leaks", makes for an intriguing situation. Apple is the master at this. They never announce anything but the media's love to search for information(mostly useless, if not leaked by the company's communication's dept) gives then a ton of constant publicity - very smart.
I realized that facebook had made it when old people started using it, and I don't mean silicon valley old, but like for real old. Snapchat hasn't hit that threshold yet. It could be the next myspace of facebook, but at 40 billion there is a plenty of upside.
I don't follow the numbers on Snap, but my personal experience is that Snow is eating their share in Asia. You can build a big business without Asia, but it won't be enough to keep The Street happy. This IPO feels like a liquidation for investors who see the end of the road ahead for Snap.
Maybe someone can enlighten me. I read awhile back (when the rumors just started) that a company can not engage in advertising/marketing in the pre-IPO period. If that's the case I assume the timing of Spectacles release is a way around that?
It is amazing that the best business model of current era is - Build something that allows people to feed their ego (ahem social activity ahem) and sell ads, simple :)
Just an anecdote but my kids (2 10 year olds in Chile) use Instagram and Snapchat about the same. They use Whatsapp and Musically several times more frequently.
Anecdotal, but as a casual snapchat user I've noticed a significant 50%+ drop in activity by my friends + peers since Instagram launched stories. I use to sign in and have 20+ stories to watch, this morning it is 4.
I feel like Snapchat sees the writing on the wall, and this is their chance for everyone to cash out.
I do not understand the value of Snapchat as a social network at all, and I use it on a daily basis.
There's no way to reshare anything, which means the only way you can find people is through other channels external to Snapchat. And they make it really hard to add someone that isn't in your immediate vicinity with their logo ready to snap. This seems ludicrous to me. How can a social networking app not try to capture all of the activity surrounding it? How can a social networking app not do everything it can to encourage people to build their network?
Can some one tell me why they use "confidentially"? When they have been talking about this for months and everyone in the tech/social business knows about it.
I guess it's confidential since they didn't blast fireworks and cannons.
Anyhow, I say that they will soon(if not now) be known as the cool social network while Facebook will live as the old but reliable techie social network , similar to the Apple/Microsoft delineation.
I do want to point out that the investment market is hot. That likely plays into their decision. Why wait when you know you can get a great valuation now, and there is a chance the market could cool.
I use snapchat a lot to communicate and follow friends. I think their difficulty in monetization will be from not being able to target ads as effectively as Facebook or Google can.
[+] [-] taytus|9 years ago|reply
I used snapchat to stream behind the scenes photos and videos and retouching tutorials, but that was a black box.
Yes, I had comments open and I interacted with my friends and fans, but I couldn't tag anyone, or hashtags, discoverability is a serious issues in that platform.
I started using Instagram stories and now I have the same views per snaps that I had on snapchat plus now I can tag brands/models/makeup artists/ etc.
Instagram is going to EAT snapchat, specially for content creators discoverability is everything.
[+] [-] 27182818284|9 years ago|reply
You're looking at it through the lens of a professional photographer, though. When I speak to young people the lack of discovery isn't a concern at all. If anything I'd contest that is one of the reasons Snapchat grew so quickly—you aren't tagged without you realizing it in a friend's picture, your parents aren't searching for your name, etc.
[+] [-] rgbrenner|9 years ago|reply
There's definitely some overlap in uses, but instagram isn't a complete replacement for Snapchat. And the areas where instagram doesn't cover snapchat, it seems like are snapchat's primary uses.
[+] [-] jklinger410|9 years ago|reply
No one wants to even give a second of time to the ads in Snapchat. They are obtrusive and in the middle breaking up the content you want to see.
For personal branding Snapchat is great. For communicating directly with people you care about, Snapchat is great.
I honestly don't see it going anywhere beyond that. Probably going out of business due to a lack of revenue.
[+] [-] nickysemenza|9 years ago|reply
I use snapchat soley for communicating with my close friends
so for me, they both have distinct use cases that aren't too overlapping
[+] [-] ericzawo|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] austinringer|9 years ago|reply
Snapchat vs. Television - https://gigaom.com/2015/02/24/snapchats-our-stories-are-gene...
Pretty Up-to-date Metrics - http://expandedramblings.com/index.php/snapchat-statistics/
[+] [-] tucaz|9 years ago|reply
My wife has 90k+ followers on Instagram and started using Snapchat up to the point where she had 4k+ views a day. When instagram launched the new stories thing she started using it slowly and has pretty much stopped using Snapchat now.
I always told that for her use case Snapchat wasn't a good fit because there is no way other than entering the username or scanning a qr code for her to be found and you have to rely on people not being lazy to add you.
Anyway, I still can't understand why hasn't Snapchat added some sort of search or trending profiles yet.
[+] [-] sdegutis|9 years ago|reply
It's just like if you displayed your art at your local bar instead of the local art museum, and complained that only your friends saw it instead of new audiences.
[+] [-] timdorr|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ardeay|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] laumars|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vit05|9 years ago|reply
I think snap do not give this option because they want have control about who pays and who get paid using the platform. At least for now.
Maybe their next step will be in this direction, making something similar to youtube. Sharing the revenue of ads with a larger pool of content creators.
[+] [-] TaylorGood|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pg_is_a_butt|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] kevando|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chollida1|9 years ago|reply
This could be a big litmus test for the tech IPO.
2 things I'm very interested in:
1) If the rumors are correct that they are looking to raise 4 Billion at a roughly $40 Billion valuation.
If you assume that their absolute pie in the sky max valuation ever is similar to what facebook is now, roughly 340 Billion, then that's not alot of upside for investors for a company that probably isn't yet profitable.
2) I've heard that the founders have locked up voting control. I'm always half watching companies like this to find out just how far they can push wall street before wall street says no more. Mark Zuckerberg and the Google founders have done a great job of managing their companies while maintaining voter control.
I want to see a tech company where the founders own voting control but manage the company like Twitter, this is not a positive reference.
If Snap get's their rumored IPO price but can't grow revenue then they could be the poster child for SEC minority shareholder reform, but then again President Trump has said he wants to remove regulation in the markets so.....
Twitter had a very dedicated and professional audience, journalists, investors, etc who used their product and they couldn't live up to expectations.
Snap now has to better than twitter and they'll have to do it by taking advertising dollars from Google and Facebook. That's a tough fight to get into.
[+] [-] johngrefe|9 years ago|reply
So how did they release their big hardware add on? Limited time vending machines. They are spinning it as cool, but with XMas, their supposed capitalization and user base, it's a pretty big warning that these are not released through a consumer channel. They are probably experiencing major headwinds keeping them out of commercialization, or a major cash crisis.
I'm want to side with the cash crisis. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't think their balance sheet is going to be very strong, if the fundamentals were there, Amazon and Best Buy would be distributing the product. Sure, tell me its a marketing strategy for exclusivity, I agree, it's great. It should have been done over the summer, moving into store shelves last week for Xmas sales.
[+] [-] deepnotderp|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Apocryphon|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] slackoverflower|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brilliantcode|9 years ago|reply
That's pretty impressive but is it a sustainable source of income?
Seems like this socio-consumer space is extremely volatile. Facebook & Twitter was the last platform I interacted with....3 years ago. Haven't even used instgram, vine, now snap chat. The fact that billions of dollars were spent buying out instagram, whatsapp, I wonder how facebook is aiming to make back all that cash expenditure. Linkedin barely gets a pass because it's enterprisey and Microsoft validated by buying it out.
Take my view with a grain of salt as I consider these social networking type of websites our generation's "cigarette" -everyone is doing it and nobody wants to stop and examine it's impact on the quality of your life.
I guess when everybody is around me is so concerned with the avatar version of themselves online and how they think they are perceived, therein emerges a divergence of values and attitude towards such mediums and the type of personalities it generates that leaks into real life (which I steer away from).
[+] [-] Tepix|9 years ago|reply
a) Why they need so much money? Don't tell me it's to produce some spectacles
b) Why they are worth so much? I get that they have an interesting user base (young people), but they are having a hard time making money, aren't they?
That $19b WhatsApp purchase hasn't exactly earned a lot of money yet, has it? It's still a very long bet, especially with Facebook being forbidden to collect the data now in some countries.
[+] [-] sfaf|9 years ago|reply
b) They have one of the fastest growing user bases in the social space, their users spends an astounding amount of time on the app (estimated at 30 minutes per day), and their user base is the most targeted demographic for demographics. Also they have literally barely turned on the advertising machine and their initial forays have already hit a revenue run rate of $300M+.
So essentially they have a shitload of eyeballs, the eyeballs are growing massively, their eyeballs spend a lot of time on their app, and advertisers love those eyeballs. Their business valuation is based on massive potential, not current revenues, but their advertising efforts already show huge promise. There is almost no startup with anything close to their engagement, growth, and monetization potential and the last company that looked like them was Facebook. Hence, the HYPE.
[+] [-] hkmurakami|9 years ago|reply
WhatsApp was a possible existential threat to FB (usage moving from streams of posts from many many "friends" to more direct conversation in smaller chat groups), so $19B when spread across the many years of "non-death" of the company can be recuperated even if they don't earn a dime from WhatsApp thereafter.
[+] [-] JonFish85|9 years ago|reply
"Need" is probably the wrong word. I imagine they're trying to maximize their return: sell enough stock to make lots of money, but not so much as to flood the market.
b) Why they are worth so much?
That's the question, and it really does boil down to "they're worth what people will pay". One side might argue that it's a game of musical chairs--someone assuming they can find a greater sucker to buy into it for more money down the road. Another side might be that they have a massive user base of people just starting to make money (high school & college graduates) who are willing to spend $5/mo on stickers and filters and stuff, as well as watch some ads.
If they can effectively maintain their audience (a huge "if"), they will make lots of money. If they lose them to the next funny app, then they'll be a gigantic bust. So far they've continued to grow.... (Personally I think they're trying to IPO before the bottom falls out, but hey, what do I know)
[+] [-] banusaur|9 years ago|reply
B) They're worth so much because on any given day, the app reaches 41 percent of all 18-to-34-year-olds in the United States. They have amazing potential as a platform for advertising, recruiting, sales, and so much more. They're probably not making money yet because they're not done honey-potting everybody like Facebook circa-2008.
You may be right about a bloated WhatsApp $19B price, because the Snapchat data is much more valuable and going for $4B.
[+] [-] binalpatel|9 years ago|reply
On b-
Not sure if it's worth $25 billion, but I have noticed that it is the "Facebook" for younger generations, and that when they use it, they use it all the time, not just a few times a day like other social media. It's a way to share their lives - in real time - with their friends and followers, and have their friends do the same.
(Look at me sounding like an old man!)
[+] [-] kevando|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pfarnsworth|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pplperson|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kevando|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pimlottc|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WheelsAtLarge|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] partiallypro|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] photogrammetry|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samfisher83|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nihonde|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beedogs|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pplperson|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ankurdhama|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] millettjon|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shaunrussell|9 years ago|reply
I feel like Snapchat sees the writing on the wall, and this is their chance for everyone to cash out.
[+] [-] Apocryphon|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moron4hire|9 years ago|reply
There's no way to reshare anything, which means the only way you can find people is through other channels external to Snapchat. And they make it really hard to add someone that isn't in your immediate vicinity with their logo ready to snap. This seems ludicrous to me. How can a social networking app not try to capture all of the activity surrounding it? How can a social networking app not do everything it can to encourage people to build their network?
[+] [-] WheelsAtLarge|9 years ago|reply
I guess it's confidential since they didn't blast fireworks and cannons.
Anyhow, I say that they will soon(if not now) be known as the cool social network while Facebook will live as the old but reliable techie social network , similar to the Apple/Microsoft delineation.
[+] [-] richardlblair|9 years ago|reply
I do want to point out that the investment market is hot. That likely plays into their decision. Why wait when you know you can get a great valuation now, and there is a chance the market could cool.
[+] [-] foota|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SN76477|9 years ago|reply