Regarding salary. I think 45-50k Euro is a pretty decent entry level salary in Germany if you're coming out of university (debt free) depending on the region. That may look shocking compared to the SV numbers but you can live a good life off 50k and a lot of the stuff will be taken care of (education of your children, healthcare) which reduces the stress level quite a bit.
If you want to start a company, you'll face some social issues (failure is considered failure) but the infrastructure is decent enough. The social issues have changed a lot in recent years though. Anecdotally I feel like recruiting good devs right out of universities is a lot easier if you're a typical startup because many of the good developers will have fought the standard curriculum of the java-bot and be rather happy to work in a more agile setting (but still want to stay in their home country).
Healthcare is absolutely taken care of for American six-figure tech workers. My premium is $2.50/mo and all my care is free or for a nominal fee, like $20. US healthcare is systemically broken, but not for people who command high wages.
Having kids in college is at least 30 years out. Knowing that an expense 30 years away will be taken care of is better than the alternative, but would do nothing for my stress level in the next ~20.
I don't buy that either of these things make any actual difference for an early-career programmer.
Probably the most important thing is rent. I suspect most European cities can offer a 1-bedroom apartment within 30 minutes of work by foot/public transit for a much lower proportion of a developer's salary than SF can, even when developer salaries are much lower. And in places not SF, $50k USD is not particularly low for a developer salary.
Yeah, so this is a pr stunt. However there are many really good startup scenes here in Europe in my experience. Stockholm is one of them: "everything" in the heart and kids departments taken care of. Lots of ambition and talent. Comparatively low vagues so less burn. Lacking VCs, but the startups that have made it invest a lot here (time and money and mentoring). Compared to the craze in sf, i would say this is the perfect place to start a small and successful business. In particular in the b2b domain. So, if you can live with being well off and not insanely rich, and looking to move out of the us - you should give Stockholm a chance.
You can ask yourself how many big companies that came into existance for example in last 20 years are from the USA or from the EU. That tells you a lot how vibrat the industry is on either side of the atlantic.
> The reason why every European developer migrates to London is to escape the craziness of the continent.
> Every European developer's final 'dream' is to work in the US tech industry - London is the second best thing to reach.
Sorry but no. I think you're delusional about tech salaries in London. And if you want to sell your soul to the finance industry, there are other places where developers make good money, without the need to live in an overcrowded city.
Honestly I don't see this as a bad thing. It would be a tragedy if every country turned into a cut-throat capitalist place like the US.
In fact I'd go further and say it would be better if the US is like NYC of the world - a place where hyper ambitious people live for varying periods of time. Leave the rest of the world to preserve culture, produce human capital etc. and in return reap benefit from tech progress in the US.
I agree with the broad strokes of your comment, but I have some nitpicks. I think it's culture that's holding the European tech sector back. Investors in Europe are generally very risk-averse and anything that's less than 100 years old isn't really taken seriously. It's fascinating to see how the more neophile countries pull ahead of the rest; how much financial conservatism holds the economy back. When Germans invest, they think mostly of dividends, not growth. And Germany is reasonably sane. Many countries (Italy, Spain) don't have functioning stock markets at all.
>(cough cringe PR cough)
I so agree. This is a VC blowing its own horn and disguising it as information. Painful.
>the craziness of the continent
Britain isn't especially rich by European standards (poorer than Germany). London is a deviation. People are flocking to London, not away from the continent. Britain is pretty average in the European silliness contest. We're talking about a country that doesn't have a written constitution or equivalent thereof.
"Every European developer's final 'dream' is to work in the US tech industry - London is the second best thing to reach."
Maybe in the pre-Brexit or pre-Trump era but today... . I turned down a London offer because of the uncertainty Brexit brings and I'm certainly not alone.
It's not that Great Brittain or the US is that political stable with al that happende the last couple or months.
Completely agree. I live in Europe, am a part of the tech scene, and am sitting in the contitental craziness you speak of in Germany. This report is largely nonsense.
It talks about "top research institutions" are in Europe, neglecting the #1,#2,#4,#5, and #6 in the world are in the USA. [1]
Honestly, I have no idea why an investor would want to try to tackle this nightmare of 30+ target markets, especially when you have huge homogeneous markets in the USA and Asia.
As an American who recently moved to London, I agree with this. The salaries here are shockingly lower, especially considering how expensive London cost of living is. I wound up just working remotely for a SF firm, which I realize is a luxury thanks to my US passport.
[+] [-] kriro|9 years ago|reply
If you want to start a company, you'll face some social issues (failure is considered failure) but the infrastructure is decent enough. The social issues have changed a lot in recent years though. Anecdotally I feel like recruiting good devs right out of universities is a lot easier if you're a typical startup because many of the good developers will have fought the standard curriculum of the java-bot and be rather happy to work in a more agile setting (but still want to stay in their home country).
[+] [-] superuser2|9 years ago|reply
Having kids in college is at least 30 years out. Knowing that an expense 30 years away will be taken care of is better than the alternative, but would do nothing for my stress level in the next ~20.
I don't buy that either of these things make any actual difference for an early-career programmer.
Probably the most important thing is rent. I suspect most European cities can offer a 1-bedroom apartment within 30 minutes of work by foot/public transit for a much lower proportion of a developer's salary than SF can, even when developer salaries are much lower. And in places not SF, $50k USD is not particularly low for a developer salary.
[+] [-] lucaspiller|9 years ago|reply
http://www.atomico.com/downloads/state-of-european-tech/atom...
The slideshow won't go full screen for me, so it's next to useless.
[+] [-] swampthinker|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bergjs|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] deepnotderp|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] freekh|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] expertentipp|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nec4b|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PunchTornado|9 years ago|reply
I see no limits to the ambition of young Europeans. We've broken the glass ceiling etc.
Looks dumb to me. Just show me the data compared to American tech.
[+] [-] throwthisawayt|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PunchTornado|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] wrong_variable|9 years ago|reply
You could create similar optimistic charts for US, China, India, etc.
The EU ( 550 million ) tech industry is dwarfed by the US ( 350 million )
Looking from a higher abstract plane, EU produces the least new entrepreneurs and innovative companies compared to the beast that is US and Asia.
The EU also has the most unstable political and financial system globally with entire countries on the verge of defaulting on their sovereign debt.
The reason why every European developer migrates to London is to escape the craziness of the continent.
Every European developer's final 'dream' is to work in the US tech industry - London is the second best thing to reach.
(.. Money Talks .. )
You can see how much value that tech is given in europe by just looking at the salaries in europe vs N.A - so much for valuing hard tech.
Seeing that both the US and Europe have similar numbers of developers (~ 3 mil) - how is european tech industry 1/8 the size of the US ??
Oversupply of developers due to better engineering school ? ( my sides )
More like MBAs from Cambridge are not as smart as their counterparts graduating from Sloan in creating value out of tech.
-- Not an American --- Direct experience with London and Berlin tech scene ---
[+] [-] hocuspocus|9 years ago|reply
> Every European developer's final 'dream' is to work in the US tech industry - London is the second best thing to reach.
Sorry but no. I think you're delusional about tech salaries in London. And if you want to sell your soul to the finance industry, there are other places where developers make good money, without the need to live in an overcrowded city.
[+] [-] jmeister|9 years ago|reply
In fact I'd go further and say it would be better if the US is like NYC of the world - a place where hyper ambitious people live for varying periods of time. Leave the rest of the world to preserve culture, produce human capital etc. and in return reap benefit from tech progress in the US.
[+] [-] tormeh|9 years ago|reply
>(cough cringe PR cough)
I so agree. This is a VC blowing its own horn and disguising it as information. Painful.
>the craziness of the continent
Britain isn't especially rich by European standards (poorer than Germany). London is a deviation. People are flocking to London, not away from the continent. Britain is pretty average in the European silliness contest. We're talking about a country that doesn't have a written constitution or equivalent thereof.
[+] [-] glenndebacker|9 years ago|reply
Maybe in the pre-Brexit or pre-Trump era but today... . I turned down a London offer because of the uncertainty Brexit brings and I'm certainly not alone.
It's not that Great Brittain or the US is that political stable with al that happende the last couple or months.
[+] [-] jfaucett|9 years ago|reply
It talks about "top research institutions" are in Europe, neglecting the #1,#2,#4,#5, and #6 in the world are in the USA. [1]
Honestly, I have no idea why an investor would want to try to tackle this nightmare of 30+ target markets, especially when you have huge homogeneous markets in the USA and Asia.
1. http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/universit...
[+] [-] ForHackernews|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] izacus|9 years ago|reply
Uhh.. what? O.o In 2016?
[+] [-] collyw|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kriro|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ionised|9 years ago|reply
Not me. I have no interest in living and working in the US.