What caught my eye is the fact that the author is surrounded by well paid people in the same field but he is not leveraging the Network that is at his disposal because he doesn't want to tell them the truth. To me this is the key of the issue. Asking for help may bring you the help you need, while not asking at all definitely won't bring you anything.
> That’s when the distraction starts. I promise myself, just a quick glance at Twitter to see what’s going on in the world, and then I look up and it’s 1:15 in the afternoon. Twitter is my heroin — it’s endless content, and if I’m bored by one tweet, I just go on to the next one.
I think the danger of unlimited news is understated. The addiction is as bad as other forms of drugs. Ok, maybe not as bad as heroin, but I don't think we are far form that.
Earlier this year, I read about the book Deep Work in a comment thread on HN. I bought the book and read it pretty quickly (it's an easy read) and it really resonated with me.
The author, Cal Newport wrote a piece a couple of days ago on digital minimalism that I think the author of the vox article should read:
My interpretation is that by compulsively refreshing Twitter (or HN), you're giving away your most valuable assets - time and attention. I'm working on spending my time more wisely and reading Deep Work is already paying off for me.
I agree. I used to browse the front page of Reddit endlessly, especially on days off despite only caring about a few subreddits. Now that I consume them through my Feedly, I'm on Reddit much less. I have trouble trying to consume the Internet when I'm bored, which is good because that makes more time for reading books that help my career.
He's not an engineer though, at least from what I read in the article. He wrote:
> I was still able to get customer support position quickly, learning skills on the job
> My background in IT and customer support, both considered the bottom rung at most tech companies, meant that I was expendable
So it seems he didn't really have higher qualifications, working in customer support, which is nowadays often outsourced and probably underpaid.
I feel sympathy for the author, but at the same time one thing that I miss from the article is whether he tried to raise his qualifications in any way. Did he try other market segments? Picked up any courses? Broadened his education in any way in the time he was unemployed? The market is saturated with unqualified workers so it's really not so shocking that people are having hard time finding work.
But would his wife be able to find a job there? Moving across the country so that he could get a low paying job, while his wife instead ends either unemployed or with a much worse job than the one she currently has is hardly an optimal solution. By the sound of it they are making just about enough money to get by as it is, so uprooting the entire family in search of something else is a pretty high risk strategy,
He's got a bunch of kids and a wife. Moving might not make sense. Kids will cause more stress if they're unhappy in a new location, and how do you move the current sole bread winner? She'd have to find a job in the same area as him, meaning you're looking for two jobs instead of one.
Also proximity to the in laws is worth something too.
To anyone recommending different approaches that could help this guy get a job - look at it from the other side.
There are 9 million unemployed men such as this one (according to the article). This doesn't mean that there are 9 million job openings out there, just waiting for someone with the right resume to show up. Sure, there are probably some, but mostly, this simply means there are 9 million more workers than jobs.
Educating the unemployed will only help individuals beat someone else in the competition of scoring a job, it won't help unemployment as a whole.
This guy openly admits he could find work, but doesn't due to his pride. There are lots of jobs out there that Americans (like this guy) "just won't do". He's in the bay area, I know that Handy and Uber are hiring. It won't be hard for him to find domestic labor for $12/hour.
After das trumpenfuhrer builds his wall and deports the illegals, there will be about 10M job openings.
Lets be realistic and acknowledge that this guy will refuse to take every single one of those 10M jobs.
There is nothing embarrassing about manual work. When I was 17, at one point, I sold toilet paper, on the street, in a third world country, to get some cash for my PC. Various jobs netted me half the cash for my PC over 6 months. My parents could scrape for the rest.
486dx-120mhz.
Right now I'm in a comfortable seniority, renting a townhouse ( Toronto is too expensive to buy) and having a family. The c++ projects keep coming, I don't have to work with anything other than my fingers. Life is good.
Would I, if anything happens, go back to selling toilet paper or digging cannals to survive and strive? Without a doubt.
They raised me to believe there is no shame in manual work, and I still hold that true.
We were traveling in Central America and we passed a mansion on a hill: the biggest, nicest house we'd seen in the country. We asked the driver who lived there, thinking it was perhaps the president's mansion.
He said: "That's the house of the Toilet Paper King."
I've cleaned toilets and programmed computers. I've worked the night shift in a hotel and I've sweated over machines in a sweltering factory. I've sold credit cards and advertising.
Five years I opened a bookstore. Just before I had a conversation with someone who knew my tech background, who was shocked that I would consider entering a dead end industry. I must know future was in tech? Kindle, Amazon, the Internet -- weren't bookstores dead?
Five years in and I make more than I ever did programming. YMMV, but the lesson I learned is do what YOU think is best and don't be ashamed to do what you need to do to get by.
Furthermore, while there may be "dead end jobs", don't ever believe you're in a "dead end life". Stuck working as a oyster diver? Write a best-selling book. Stuck in a patent office? Win a Nobel prize. Stuck in telemarketing? Become a famous actor. You're more than where you are right now.
I'm sure this sounds like heresy to some of you, but you don't have to outrun the bear: you only have to find a temporary local maximum, not an enduring global one. Perfection is the enemy of the good.
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” -- Oscar Wilde
I think this focus in corporate america and startups on "winner take all" and only hire elite is hurting the economy. Because we've allowed monopolies for so long and they've multiplied, it's great for companies and investors, horrible for the economy at large.
I agree. Capitalism is by far the best system, but its glory days (in the U.S.) have passed us by. I drove through the downtown area of my hometown this past weekend and tried to convince my wife that it was once a vibrant business district. When I was a kid in the 80's, every storefront was filled with local businesses bearing family names. Today there is only a collection of small-town dive bars, a tattoo shop and a gas station.
Of course there is a Target, Walmart, Home improvement center & large furniture store out on the highway that squeezed the life out of the family businesses a long time ago. It's really sad.
One reason for this is that the market heavily favors this and the outcomes are highly dependent on this sort of behavior. Technology makes winner take all scenarios possible, not just monopoly though that's a part of it. Capital runs after the winner takes all facilitated by technology.
A: in 7 years he couldve gone back to school to learn something else
B: most smaller schools I know waive tuition if your unemployed.
C: What's this idea of "stopped looking for work" ? And people say all of us minorities are the ones who want handouts. I've supported a family of 3 on $36k. In New York City. It wasn't easy but I had to do what I had to do.
Once you've reached that point, you can no longer afford to have pride. You have to do whatever it takes.
You have to reach out to everyone you know for a job. You have to accept people's pity and take whatever you can get.
If you don't have marketable skills, you need to switch to a low-ethics industry - It's less competitive. Find the jobs are considered wrong or unethical and which no one else wants to do - Those pay the best.
When I was going through a hard time, I worked for a gambling company and made a ton of money. Making money feels good.
My philosophy is that if you're a poor person with no savings, you shouldn't worry about how your work affects society; it's not your responsibility - Let those who are wealthy worry about that; they are the only ones who actually CAN do something about that. You do whatever it takes to get the money into your bank account. If society gets worse, then you have to get worse with it.
If society degrades to the point that people are killing each other, you have to be prepared to fight for your survival.
I am sympathetic to the author. I know a few people who are very strong in the Humanities, are well-read, and have a mastery of the English language, but can't find a Humanities related job due to market saturation. My wife falls into this category. She would be hopeless at learning a "marketable" skill like HTML and JavaScript. Asking these people to serve as a cashier is a waste of literary talent. I don't have any great ideas on what to tell them. There needs to be a better solution than go work as a cashier or go learn JavaScript.
> Asking these people to serve as a cashier is a waste of literary talent.
How is it a waste of literary talent? To be crass, if they're currently producing something society doesn't value/want to pay for, how is being a cashier a waste?
I've met a lot of people who "couldn't" find a job.
What they usually mean is "they can't find a job in the area they want, in the industry they want, doing the kind of work they want, at the salary they want, working for someone else."
This is a highly overconstrained search. If / when people loosen one or more of these constraints, they're opportunities open right up.
Like everyone, I prefer to get exactly what I want.
...but it doesn't always play out that way.
When I've needed work and my dream job isn't there, I've worked in garbage industries, on crappy projects, at places that are long commutes, etc., and I've been swamped with work for 25 years.
I've met a lot of managers who "couldn't" find anyone to hire.
What they usually mean is "they can't find an employee in the location they want, with the credentials they want, with the skills they want, at the salary they want, who's been trained by someone else."
This is a highly overconstrained search. If/when employers loosen one or more of these constraints, candidates show right up.
Like everyone, I prefer to get exactly what I want.
...but it doesn't always play out that way.
When I've needed staff and my dream candidate isn't there, I've hired imperfect people that I had to train, raise the rate I was willing to pay, put together attractive relocation packages, etc., and I've never had a problem hiring in 20 years as a manager.
(Both parties in an employment relationship may not have equal bargaining power, but I take issue with the implication that employers have no agency and workers no power.)
EDIT: A point I wanted to include or imply, but couldn't really shoehorn into this inversion, is that just as employers set bounds on what they offer employees, workers set bounds on what offers they accept. Sometimes it's rational to hold out for the right role through an extended period of unemployment (while focusing instead on finding the right role and acquiring or sharpening marketable skills) than to take underemployment that leaves you with no time for improving your position.
"There have been times where I’ve wondered if I should just get a temporary service or manual labor job...I would be too humiliated... It would be exceptionally difficult to work eight hours a day hoping with all my might that a neighbor or friend wouldn’t swing by to see me working the cash register or pumping gas."
This is a definitive example of the prideful worker effect. It's kind of crazy how our modern culture substitutes "can't" for "won't".
Meanwhile, this guy says he doesn't have skills with modern technologies and he spends 4 hours/day ("a quick glance at Twitter to see what’s going on in the world, and then I look up and it’s 1:15") procrastinating rather than learning those technologies. Hardly a surprise that no one wants to hire him, I certainly never would.
I remember talking to the father of a girlfriend's roommate at the time. He used to be an executive at an engineering company in Chicago, but he didn't survive the 5th round of layoffs. When I met him, he was working at a hardware store around the corner from his house. He was unhappy with ending up doing a cashier's job when he spent his whole life working towards what he did previously. He never once said he was ungrateful for the job and he certainly didn't say it was beneath him, he just wanted to go back to what he was doing, and he clearly didn't just stay unemployed for his next opportunity. While underemployed, he kept looking an interviewing and didn't give up until someone hired him.
My point is, that you're absolutely right. It may not be the job you want right now, but it is probably the job you need right now. You can either take it and work on our next move or sit there pontificating if the perfect job will arrive next.
Yes and no. It can speak to structural inefficiencies in the economy. For instance, I am a Computational Scientist with a decade of experience in scientific research, publications, etc. It would be a massive waste of my training to be working in an unrelated field, for instance.
Underemployment is a very real thing, and it hurts the entire economy. We as a society have a vested interest in ensuring that highly productive roles (data science, medicine, etc.) are filled, because thelse positions are more productive and boost the aggregate economy. To say nothing of the likely higher salary and job satisfaction that comes with a 'good fit'.
The problem is education is tailored towards particular jobs. For example if you have a degree in biology, sure you can get a job in a factory paying almost minimum wage. . . but it wouldn't pay enough for you to cover your student loans and still be able to move out. There seems to be a serious lack of jobs that let people actually have a life. . . and I'm not talking about picket fence in the suburbs dream home kind of life, I'm just talking about being able to afford basic necessities
You can't ignore the fact that once you get off the merry-go-round it becomes incredibly hard to get back on. There's something to be said for holding out for a job that fits with your skills, standard of living, and expectations. If we're a land so flush with opportunity and markets are working like so many of its adherents like to claim this should work fine, right?
There have always been people who can't find a job under those conditions. The question is why that proportion of men is higher now than it was a decade or two or three ago.
Moralizing about how they're all too lazy and prideful to get a job is itself lazy. At least take the step to identify why you think the number of the prideful lazy has increased.
Also: you said you've been in the workforce for 25 years. Have you considered that not everyone shares your particular history of entering into the workforce right before an extended boom time? That's a huge difference from people who entered in 2008, only found a paying job in 2010, and as a consequence of timing are behind people who graduated a year or two later than them.
15 minutes walk and I was able to find 8 retails job offers. It was 4G upload speed that was slowing me down adding new posts...
Jobs are everywhere and I couldn't agree more: "they can't find a job in the area they want, in the industry they want, doing the kind of work they want, at the salary they want, working for someone else."
I totally understand the desperation of not wanting to "ratchet down" in one's career.
I remember being out of work for quite a bit of time. It was right out of MBA school (after working ~10 years as a software developer), I graduated into the Great Recession. Could not find anything--programming or otherwise. I started burning through savings, and was very tempted to just take any gas station job I could in order to make ends meet. It's like a game of chicken where you wait as long as you can before jumping out of the way of the truck.
Through a great miraculous fortune, at the last possible moment, I found a mid level software job and took it with zero negotiation, being about 1 month away from insolvency. It was totally beneath me in terms of qualifications but when the alternative is going broke, you take it. I was pretty close to walking into McDonalds at that point asking if they needed a janitor.
I came to say exactly this, though the article touched on a thing I've never understood: why is it embarrassing to take a job that pays? If I only had $30 for a week, I'd dig holes for minimum wage 10 hours a day if that's what it took to get out of a bad financial situation.
One thing I've heard of from other sources is that managers who offer menial jobs like burger flipping and supermarket checkout will not actually employ someone who can get a better job.
Doesn't sound like the guy in the article has tried, but he may find his situation is a lot worse when it gets to that level of desperation.
The reason is of course that if you're running a McDonalds or supermarket, you don't want a guy who you know is actively searching for something else and will leave immediately when he finds it. There's a cost to finding and training people, even if it's a lot less than finding a dev.
This article scares me more than any horror movie ever has. I'm currently the sole provider for my family (thankfully, this will change in a few weeks), and even though I have a decently stable job that pays well. Losing it and not being able to get another is my worse nightmare (right after burning alive).
I know it shouldn't bother me this much. I have had 7 interviews in my life and I only failed 2 of them. One of them being back in high school when I applied to Pepsi for stocking shelves.
I know that if I would to ever actually end up in that kind of position, it would most likely be because of feared it so much that I made it happen to myself.
The silver lining as I read this is how this guy even with all the trouble has remained married provided for his children all while living in one of the most expensive areas in the world.
And with offical unemployment at 4.5% as some else has mentioned jobs may not exist for these guys given the current economic structure. The demand is not there. Hopefully, no matter how imperfect, a large infrastructure investment happens and stimulates demand for prime age male workers.
Well, HN never fails to to disappoint with the libertarian "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and "just learn how to code" rhetoric.
A slew of survivorship bias comments that seem to focus on the 1 sentence of the article, where the author is saying they do not consider a manual labor job to be practical, and neatly ignoring everything else.
Here are some things most commenters have willingly ignored from the comfort of their privileged ignorance of economics:
1. Depending on your health, working a manual labor job at 47 may be a net negative value. Your body does not heal or recover that well from prolonged repetitive tasks, so working long days for a $12/hr wage may actually be a worse deal from not working at all. If this country had federal health care, then it might have made sense, but since we have the for-profit approach, it doesn't.
This can be true even if he's in perfect health right now.
2. Ageism is more real than you think. Especially ageism when it comes to the resume and job history. Since he's not an engineer, the thought process of a potential employer goes like this: this guy is 47 and he hasn't held a management job once in his life, nor progressed beyond basic tech support and customer service. He also has a family, so he likely won't be willing to work extra hours for free and be as willing to be exploited as someone who is 23.
3. Applying for shitty jobs is more costly than applying for higher paying jobs. The application process for a job is taking a certain amount of time regardless of the job itself, but the since the payoff for a better job is much higher, it makes sense to apply only for jobs that pay above a certain threshold. This is especially true when you consider he is providing some benefit at home as a stay at home dad (presumably). If he's providing $10,000 in value by staying at home, It will be 6x as costly to apply for a $15,000 job than for a $40,000 job.
4. The social stigma and not being able to network: Networking works great when you're a professional that is able to get job offers without networking. It helps you get better jobs or more interesting jobs, but it doesn't suddenly elevate you from a non-professional status (tech support + customer service) to the status of a professional with the corresponding salary and benefits. The only case where this work is very entrenched nepotism, where someone unqualified could get a job for which they are not suited with compensation higher than their "real" market rate.
Networking is mostly useless if you don't have the skills to back it up, like this guy.
5. The twitter sentence. I'm honestly shocked at some of the vitriol from the HN community here. Do none of you ever procrastinate? If I'm not mistaken, it's working hours right now, but most of you are finding the time to comment here, on HN. If you had ever spent job hunting for a significant amount of time, you'd know it's at least as mentally draining as any job, so getting distracted or having some down time isn't unwarranted.
I could go on and on, but the gist of it is: show some goddamn compassion and maybe step outside of your bubble for once.
The fact that this person is one of 9 MILLION should maybe at least tell you that it's a systematic problem, and not just a problem of "not being willing to work any job for fear of embarrassment"
For every one unwilling to do manual labor like this guy, there's another one who is (aka the other 4.5 million).
Citation needed. Most of my coworkers are easily over 40. The best programmers I've met at most of my jobs are late forties/fifties. What studies are you using, rather than your hypothetical "though process" of the hypothetical employer?
> If he's providing $10,000 in value by staying at home, It will be 6x as costly to apply for a $15,000 job than for a $40,000 job.
It will be 6x more costly to accept the 15k job than to accept the 40k job. The application costs are still the same. Also, by applying for the 15k job in your example, you are able to a) spend 10k to offset the value you bring at home or keep the 10k and let some chores remain undone and b) Keep 5k regardless.
> but most of you are finding the time to comment here, on HN.
We are not the ones who have to stretch 30 dollars a week to cover expenses for a family of four. If you have a steady job that doesn't frown too heavily on some procrastination, go ahead.
> If you had ever spent job hunting for a significant amount of time, you'd know it's at least as mentally draining as any job, so getting distracted or having some down time isn't unwarranted.
We're talking about degrees here. I'm procrastinating right now, but if I procrastinate too long I will end up unemployed, just like this guy. There's a difference between getting distracted and down time, and taking weeks off between interviews.
> show some goddamn compassion and maybe step outside of your bubble for once
From all accounts, this man who wrote the article is the one in the bubble. It's all about how he feels, how his friends will hurt his feelings if they figure out he's unemployed. He's the one that needs to step outside himself.
Buddy, you're in a rut. You're only 47 -- that means you've got 20-25 more years to work. If you do it right and earn the ability to retire. What happened yesterday is done. It's tomorrow you have to focus on. The only race is with yourself.
You're letting the world get you down, and there's no reason for that. Every day is a new day to reinvent yourself; learn a new skill, fix a character trait you don't like / or that isn't working. Humans are fluid, adaptable. But... if you don't constantly seek change by perpetually improving yourself, you'll have to deal with change imposed on you by others -- making your own choices is how you stay empowered.
Going to go through a bit more, point-by-point, and highlight why I feel this article is a cautionary tale.
> While I majored in the humanities, I was still able to get customer support position quickly, learning skills on the job.
So why not learn to code? You lived through the dot-com boom... no reason why you couldn't pick up a book and get more into technology. You've been around technology longer than some startup CEOs have been alive. Stop standing still, there are plenty of online resources and courses on how to learn new skills.
> Budgeting has become a well-rehearsed drill
Everyone should budget. If you don't have money you need to. If you have money and you don't budget, well... you'll probably need to soon enough. Also... move. Plenty of places that are a lot cheaper than California.
> The job hunting process is pure drudgery
See previous point... you need to keep working on improving yourself. The job process is "drudgery" because the market is saying, "We don't want what you're selling, go get something else and sell that." Additionally, if you ever get to this point where you are feeling down and out and hopeless... why would anyone want to hire you? Take the time you need to collect yourself, come back fresh. Again... not so much a choice, you won't have success trying to apply for jobs if your head isn't in the game -- so either you choose to take the time to get better, or you continue in a rut.
> The days are long and boring
So, you have lots of time to learn new skills, new technology, new platforms, or just read books? My mom used to tell me when I was growing up, "Only boring people get bored." If you're depressed, and it sounds like you are, just focus on moving. Walk as far as you can in a day. Try to beat your high score the next day... until you feel like doing something else.
> There’s social stigma
There's a stigma around saying, "I'm a failure, I'm a failure." Look at failure as an opportunity to learn. You talked about "being a consultant" and there's no reason why you can't be a consultant... fake it until you make it... all that. Maybe 1% of real SEO consultants know what they're doing... they all seem to make money off it (and even to be in that 1% doesn't take that much knowledge) -- an example of a non-technical job you can self-teach yourself into.
Seven years off... I have to think there's something going on here. Possible someone is enabling you to make shitty life choices that put you in a depression spiral? You have the time, you have the ability, you the resources (as most of them are free and just require a computer)... you just to start taking small steps. Learn HTML + CSS, learn SEO, learn JavaScript... learn how to install WordPress themes (literally no coding required), learn how to use HubSpot, or Google Analyitcs, or any of the huge assortment of tools that people can make a living off of using. And don't stop learning.
Set goals for yourself, and be wary of anyone who makes it easy to ignore those goals... Yes, it sucks to fail... and it's nice to have a warm bed to come home to -- win or lose... but when given the choice... skip the easy path (rut), go for the challenge -- that's how you learn and grow. The solution to your problems isn't on the easy path, you say you've been on that path for 7 years without success... time to try something new.
> There have been times where I’ve wondered if I should just get a temporary service or manual labor job to help out with extra cash. But I’m worried about getting stuck in a position with even less room for growth than my previous jobs. And to be honest, I would be too humiliated. Our social circle, made up of mostly well-paid tech workers and professionals, has no idea how bad our situation has been. It would be exceptionally difficult to work eight hours a day hoping with all my might that a neighbor or friend wouldn’t swing by to see me working the cash register or pumping gas.
Seriously? You're living in a house your mother gave you, and you've got two children to feed, and you don't want to work at a gas station because you'd be embarrassed?
Is this a weird cultural thing, where ten years of Russian upbringing followed by a decade plus in Texas, both rural in urban makes me incapable of feeling sympathy for a man who'd be too embarrassed to be seen feeding his family?
How is that more shameful than writing an article for the world, admitting that you're too scared of a bit of social stigma to get a temporary job to help you get by?
There are more practical considerations. Would you want to hire a 40-year old programmer who had just spent the last 3 months flipping burgers because he couldn't find a job? The stigma is real and it's more than just pride. A fall from middle class to lower class can become permanent through nothing more than that stigma. With that comes a higher mortality rate across the board.
I'd worry more about my wife and kids saw everyday, than what my social circle saw once in a while. I think he's got his priorities mixed up.
I don't believe in "men's" work, "woman's" work, "immigrants" work... there is only work that needs doing. Being someone who is know to take on whatever needs doing is a great way to get better jobs.
Because the author of this article is hoping this goes viral. If this goes viral, he is going to receive a lot of emails from people wanting to donate money to him and offer him jobs.
The author knows exactly what he is doing and he is succeeding. I'm certain he will either have several thousand dollars in donations or a high-paying job by the end of the week.
This is the age of entitlement. You only have to do what you feel like doing and feelings are all that matter.
Oh, cry me a river. I put myself through school on retail. I am a programmer. If I lost this job, I'd be back to retail in a heartbeat while I worked to find a new IT job. I have a very hard time having sympathy for someone who goes on and on about how bad he has it while he's not willing to work a job that is "beneath" him. What classes are you taking? What are you doing to get more relevant? Github is free. Resources are free. Many classes are free. Get your StackOverflow on. Shit, I get offers from there frequently and all I have done is answer some questions.
Your kids are hungry because you're too good to get a job at a freaking grocery store??
[+] [-] goshx|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hartator|9 years ago|reply
I think the danger of unlimited news is understated. The addiction is as bad as other forms of drugs. Ok, maybe not as bad as heroin, but I don't think we are far form that.
[+] [-] criddell|9 years ago|reply
Earlier this year, I read about the book Deep Work in a comment thread on HN. I bought the book and read it pretty quickly (it's an easy read) and it really resonated with me.
The author, Cal Newport wrote a piece a couple of days ago on digital minimalism that I think the author of the vox article should read:
http://calnewport.com/blog/2016/12/18/on-digital-minimalism/
My interpretation is that by compulsively refreshing Twitter (or HN), you're giving away your most valuable assets - time and attention. I'm working on spending my time more wisely and reading Deep Work is already paying off for me.
[+] [-] nunez|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flippy2|9 years ago|reply
There are plenty of companies needing IT workers across the USA and moving to one of them sounds like a good way for him to get back on his feet.
[+] [-] M4v3R|9 years ago|reply
> I was still able to get customer support position quickly, learning skills on the job
> My background in IT and customer support, both considered the bottom rung at most tech companies, meant that I was expendable
So it seems he didn't really have higher qualifications, working in customer support, which is nowadays often outsourced and probably underpaid.
I feel sympathy for the author, but at the same time one thing that I miss from the article is whether he tried to raise his qualifications in any way. Did he try other market segments? Picked up any courses? Broadened his education in any way in the time he was unemployed? The market is saturated with unqualified workers so it's really not so shocking that people are having hard time finding work.
[+] [-] dagw|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lordnacho|9 years ago|reply
Also proximity to the in laws is worth something too.
[+] [-] mcguire|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MatekCopatek|9 years ago|reply
There are 9 million unemployed men such as this one (according to the article). This doesn't mean that there are 9 million job openings out there, just waiting for someone with the right resume to show up. Sure, there are probably some, but mostly, this simply means there are 9 million more workers than jobs.
Educating the unemployed will only help individuals beat someone else in the competition of scoring a job, it won't help unemployment as a whole.
[+] [-] yummyfajitas|9 years ago|reply
After das trumpenfuhrer builds his wall and deports the illegals, there will be about 10M job openings.
Lets be realistic and acknowledge that this guy will refuse to take every single one of those 10M jobs.
[+] [-] acedinlowball|9 years ago|reply
> this simply means there are 9 million more workers than jobs
what an outrageous and uninformed thing to say. Can you please edit or delete your comment?
[+] [-] quickben|9 years ago|reply
486dx-120mhz.
Right now I'm in a comfortable seniority, renting a townhouse ( Toronto is too expensive to buy) and having a family. The c++ projects keep coming, I don't have to work with anything other than my fingers. Life is good.
Would I, if anything happens, go back to selling toilet paper or digging cannals to survive and strive? Without a doubt.
They raised me to believe there is no shame in manual work, and I still hold that true.
[+] [-] canadian_voter|9 years ago|reply
He said: "That's the house of the Toilet Paper King."
I've cleaned toilets and programmed computers. I've worked the night shift in a hotel and I've sweated over machines in a sweltering factory. I've sold credit cards and advertising.
Five years I opened a bookstore. Just before I had a conversation with someone who knew my tech background, who was shocked that I would consider entering a dead end industry. I must know future was in tech? Kindle, Amazon, the Internet -- weren't bookstores dead?
Five years in and I make more than I ever did programming. YMMV, but the lesson I learned is do what YOU think is best and don't be ashamed to do what you need to do to get by.
Furthermore, while there may be "dead end jobs", don't ever believe you're in a "dead end life". Stuck working as a oyster diver? Write a best-selling book. Stuck in a patent office? Win a Nobel prize. Stuck in telemarketing? Become a famous actor. You're more than where you are right now.
I'm sure this sounds like heresy to some of you, but you don't have to outrun the bear: you only have to find a temporary local maximum, not an enduring global one. Perfection is the enemy of the good.
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” -- Oscar Wilde
[+] [-] sharemywin|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cabinguy|9 years ago|reply
Of course there is a Target, Walmart, Home improvement center & large furniture store out on the highway that squeezed the life out of the family businesses a long time ago. It's really sad.
[+] [-] devoply|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alvaromuir|9 years ago|reply
A: in 7 years he couldve gone back to school to learn something else B: most smaller schools I know waive tuition if your unemployed.
C: What's this idea of "stopped looking for work" ? And people say all of us minorities are the ones who want handouts. I've supported a family of 3 on $36k. In New York City. It wasn't easy but I had to do what I had to do.
[+] [-] jondubois|9 years ago|reply
You have to reach out to everyone you know for a job. You have to accept people's pity and take whatever you can get.
If you don't have marketable skills, you need to switch to a low-ethics industry - It's less competitive. Find the jobs are considered wrong or unethical and which no one else wants to do - Those pay the best.
When I was going through a hard time, I worked for a gambling company and made a ton of money. Making money feels good.
My philosophy is that if you're a poor person with no savings, you shouldn't worry about how your work affects society; it's not your responsibility - Let those who are wealthy worry about that; they are the only ones who actually CAN do something about that. You do whatever it takes to get the money into your bank account. If society gets worse, then you have to get worse with it.
If society degrades to the point that people are killing each other, you have to be prepared to fight for your survival.
[+] [-] peapicker|9 years ago|reply
If nothing else, it give you credentials to help avoid this sort of situation in the field you wish to work in.
Not many employers look for humanities majors to run their IT when there are many other applicants with credentials.
[+] [-] jimlawruk|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jimmywanger|9 years ago|reply
How is it a waste of literary talent? To be crass, if they're currently producing something society doesn't value/want to pay for, how is being a cashier a waste?
[+] [-] mathattack|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tjic|9 years ago|reply
What they usually mean is "they can't find a job in the area they want, in the industry they want, doing the kind of work they want, at the salary they want, working for someone else."
This is a highly overconstrained search. If / when people loosen one or more of these constraints, they're opportunities open right up.
Like everyone, I prefer to get exactly what I want.
...but it doesn't always play out that way.
When I've needed work and my dream job isn't there, I've worked in garbage industries, on crappy projects, at places that are long commutes, etc., and I've been swamped with work for 25 years.
[+] [-] cijt|9 years ago|reply
What they usually mean is "they can't find an employee in the location they want, with the credentials they want, with the skills they want, at the salary they want, who's been trained by someone else."
This is a highly overconstrained search. If/when employers loosen one or more of these constraints, candidates show right up.
Like everyone, I prefer to get exactly what I want.
...but it doesn't always play out that way.
When I've needed staff and my dream candidate isn't there, I've hired imperfect people that I had to train, raise the rate I was willing to pay, put together attractive relocation packages, etc., and I've never had a problem hiring in 20 years as a manager.
(Both parties in an employment relationship may not have equal bargaining power, but I take issue with the implication that employers have no agency and workers no power.)
EDIT: A point I wanted to include or imply, but couldn't really shoehorn into this inversion, is that just as employers set bounds on what they offer employees, workers set bounds on what offers they accept. Sometimes it's rational to hold out for the right role through an extended period of unemployment (while focusing instead on finding the right role and acquiring or sharpening marketable skills) than to take underemployment that leaves you with no time for improving your position.
[+] [-] yummyfajitas|9 years ago|reply
"There have been times where I’ve wondered if I should just get a temporary service or manual labor job...I would be too humiliated... It would be exceptionally difficult to work eight hours a day hoping with all my might that a neighbor or friend wouldn’t swing by to see me working the cash register or pumping gas."
This is a definitive example of the prideful worker effect. It's kind of crazy how our modern culture substitutes "can't" for "won't".
Meanwhile, this guy says he doesn't have skills with modern technologies and he spends 4 hours/day ("a quick glance at Twitter to see what’s going on in the world, and then I look up and it’s 1:15") procrastinating rather than learning those technologies. Hardly a surprise that no one wants to hire him, I certainly never would.
[+] [-] kemiller2002|9 years ago|reply
My point is, that you're absolutely right. It may not be the job you want right now, but it is probably the job you need right now. You can either take it and work on our next move or sit there pontificating if the perfect job will arrive next.
[+] [-] swamp40|9 years ago|reply
He said he had to shut down his business - couldn't find anyone willing to learn the trade.
He said no one wants to get their hands dirty anymore.
He said it's a shame, they could basically charge as much as they like - write their own tickets.
[+] [-] arcanus|9 years ago|reply
Yes and no. It can speak to structural inefficiencies in the economy. For instance, I am a Computational Scientist with a decade of experience in scientific research, publications, etc. It would be a massive waste of my training to be working in an unrelated field, for instance.
Underemployment is a very real thing, and it hurts the entire economy. We as a society have a vested interest in ensuring that highly productive roles (data science, medicine, etc.) are filled, because thelse positions are more productive and boost the aggregate economy. To say nothing of the likely higher salary and job satisfaction that comes with a 'good fit'.
[+] [-] vivekd|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 1_2__3|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scarmig|9 years ago|reply
Moralizing about how they're all too lazy and prideful to get a job is itself lazy. At least take the step to identify why you think the number of the prideful lazy has increased.
Also: you said you've been in the workforce for 25 years. Have you considered that not everyone shares your particular history of entering into the workforce right before an extended boom time? That's a huge difference from people who entered in 2008, only found a paying job in 2010, and as a consequence of timing are behind people who graduated a year or two later than them.
[+] [-] stefek99|9 years ago|reply
15 minutes walk and I was able to find 8 retails job offers. It was 4G upload speed that was slowing me down adding new posts...
Jobs are everywhere and I couldn't agree more: "they can't find a job in the area they want, in the industry they want, doing the kind of work they want, at the salary they want, working for someone else."
Ditto.
[+] [-] ryandrake|9 years ago|reply
I remember being out of work for quite a bit of time. It was right out of MBA school (after working ~10 years as a software developer), I graduated into the Great Recession. Could not find anything--programming or otherwise. I started burning through savings, and was very tempted to just take any gas station job I could in order to make ends meet. It's like a game of chicken where you wait as long as you can before jumping out of the way of the truck.
Through a great miraculous fortune, at the last possible moment, I found a mid level software job and took it with zero negotiation, being about 1 month away from insolvency. It was totally beneath me in terms of qualifications but when the alternative is going broke, you take it. I was pretty close to walking into McDonalds at that point asking if they needed a janitor.
[+] [-] client4|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lordnacho|9 years ago|reply
Doesn't sound like the guy in the article has tried, but he may find his situation is a lot worse when it gets to that level of desperation.
The reason is of course that if you're running a McDonalds or supermarket, you don't want a guy who you know is actively searching for something else and will leave immediately when he finds it. There's a cost to finding and training people, even if it's a lot less than finding a dev.
[+] [-] dsfyu404ed|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] amiller2571|9 years ago|reply
I know it shouldn't bother me this much. I have had 7 interviews in my life and I only failed 2 of them. One of them being back in high school when I applied to Pepsi for stocking shelves.
I know that if I would to ever actually end up in that kind of position, it would most likely be because of feared it so much that I made it happen to myself.
[+] [-] bhewes|9 years ago|reply
And with offical unemployment at 4.5% as some else has mentioned jobs may not exist for these guys given the current economic structure. The demand is not there. Hopefully, no matter how imperfect, a large infrastructure investment happens and stimulates demand for prime age male workers.
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] antisthenes|9 years ago|reply
A slew of survivorship bias comments that seem to focus on the 1 sentence of the article, where the author is saying they do not consider a manual labor job to be practical, and neatly ignoring everything else.
Here are some things most commenters have willingly ignored from the comfort of their privileged ignorance of economics:
1. Depending on your health, working a manual labor job at 47 may be a net negative value. Your body does not heal or recover that well from prolonged repetitive tasks, so working long days for a $12/hr wage may actually be a worse deal from not working at all. If this country had federal health care, then it might have made sense, but since we have the for-profit approach, it doesn't.
This can be true even if he's in perfect health right now.
2. Ageism is more real than you think. Especially ageism when it comes to the resume and job history. Since he's not an engineer, the thought process of a potential employer goes like this: this guy is 47 and he hasn't held a management job once in his life, nor progressed beyond basic tech support and customer service. He also has a family, so he likely won't be willing to work extra hours for free and be as willing to be exploited as someone who is 23.
3. Applying for shitty jobs is more costly than applying for higher paying jobs. The application process for a job is taking a certain amount of time regardless of the job itself, but the since the payoff for a better job is much higher, it makes sense to apply only for jobs that pay above a certain threshold. This is especially true when you consider he is providing some benefit at home as a stay at home dad (presumably). If he's providing $10,000 in value by staying at home, It will be 6x as costly to apply for a $15,000 job than for a $40,000 job.
4. The social stigma and not being able to network: Networking works great when you're a professional that is able to get job offers without networking. It helps you get better jobs or more interesting jobs, but it doesn't suddenly elevate you from a non-professional status (tech support + customer service) to the status of a professional with the corresponding salary and benefits. The only case where this work is very entrenched nepotism, where someone unqualified could get a job for which they are not suited with compensation higher than their "real" market rate.
Networking is mostly useless if you don't have the skills to back it up, like this guy.
5. The twitter sentence. I'm honestly shocked at some of the vitriol from the HN community here. Do none of you ever procrastinate? If I'm not mistaken, it's working hours right now, but most of you are finding the time to comment here, on HN. If you had ever spent job hunting for a significant amount of time, you'd know it's at least as mentally draining as any job, so getting distracted or having some down time isn't unwarranted.
I could go on and on, but the gist of it is: show some goddamn compassion and maybe step outside of your bubble for once.
The fact that this person is one of 9 MILLION should maybe at least tell you that it's a systematic problem, and not just a problem of "not being willing to work any job for fear of embarrassment" For every one unwilling to do manual labor like this guy, there's another one who is (aka the other 4.5 million).
[+] [-] jimmywanger|9 years ago|reply
Citation needed. Most of my coworkers are easily over 40. The best programmers I've met at most of my jobs are late forties/fifties. What studies are you using, rather than your hypothetical "though process" of the hypothetical employer?
> If he's providing $10,000 in value by staying at home, It will be 6x as costly to apply for a $15,000 job than for a $40,000 job.
It will be 6x more costly to accept the 15k job than to accept the 40k job. The application costs are still the same. Also, by applying for the 15k job in your example, you are able to a) spend 10k to offset the value you bring at home or keep the 10k and let some chores remain undone and b) Keep 5k regardless.
> but most of you are finding the time to comment here, on HN.
We are not the ones who have to stretch 30 dollars a week to cover expenses for a family of four. If you have a steady job that doesn't frown too heavily on some procrastination, go ahead.
> If you had ever spent job hunting for a significant amount of time, you'd know it's at least as mentally draining as any job, so getting distracted or having some down time isn't unwarranted.
We're talking about degrees here. I'm procrastinating right now, but if I procrastinate too long I will end up unemployed, just like this guy. There's a difference between getting distracted and down time, and taking weeks off between interviews.
> show some goddamn compassion and maybe step outside of your bubble for once
From all accounts, this man who wrote the article is the one in the bubble. It's all about how he feels, how his friends will hurt his feelings if they figure out he's unemployed. He's the one that needs to step outside himself.
[+] [-] dbg31415|9 years ago|reply
Buddy, you're in a rut. You're only 47 -- that means you've got 20-25 more years to work. If you do it right and earn the ability to retire. What happened yesterday is done. It's tomorrow you have to focus on. The only race is with yourself.
You're letting the world get you down, and there's no reason for that. Every day is a new day to reinvent yourself; learn a new skill, fix a character trait you don't like / or that isn't working. Humans are fluid, adaptable. But... if you don't constantly seek change by perpetually improving yourself, you'll have to deal with change imposed on you by others -- making your own choices is how you stay empowered.
Going to go through a bit more, point-by-point, and highlight why I feel this article is a cautionary tale.
> While I majored in the humanities, I was still able to get customer support position quickly, learning skills on the job.
So why not learn to code? You lived through the dot-com boom... no reason why you couldn't pick up a book and get more into technology. You've been around technology longer than some startup CEOs have been alive. Stop standing still, there are plenty of online resources and courses on how to learn new skills.
> Budgeting has become a well-rehearsed drill
Everyone should budget. If you don't have money you need to. If you have money and you don't budget, well... you'll probably need to soon enough. Also... move. Plenty of places that are a lot cheaper than California.
> The job hunting process is pure drudgery
See previous point... you need to keep working on improving yourself. The job process is "drudgery" because the market is saying, "We don't want what you're selling, go get something else and sell that." Additionally, if you ever get to this point where you are feeling down and out and hopeless... why would anyone want to hire you? Take the time you need to collect yourself, come back fresh. Again... not so much a choice, you won't have success trying to apply for jobs if your head isn't in the game -- so either you choose to take the time to get better, or you continue in a rut.
> The days are long and boring
So, you have lots of time to learn new skills, new technology, new platforms, or just read books? My mom used to tell me when I was growing up, "Only boring people get bored." If you're depressed, and it sounds like you are, just focus on moving. Walk as far as you can in a day. Try to beat your high score the next day... until you feel like doing something else.
> There’s social stigma
There's a stigma around saying, "I'm a failure, I'm a failure." Look at failure as an opportunity to learn. You talked about "being a consultant" and there's no reason why you can't be a consultant... fake it until you make it... all that. Maybe 1% of real SEO consultants know what they're doing... they all seem to make money off it (and even to be in that 1% doesn't take that much knowledge) -- an example of a non-technical job you can self-teach yourself into.
Seven years off... I have to think there's something going on here. Possible someone is enabling you to make shitty life choices that put you in a depression spiral? You have the time, you have the ability, you the resources (as most of them are free and just require a computer)... you just to start taking small steps. Learn HTML + CSS, learn SEO, learn JavaScript... learn how to install WordPress themes (literally no coding required), learn how to use HubSpot, or Google Analyitcs, or any of the huge assortment of tools that people can make a living off of using. And don't stop learning.
Set goals for yourself, and be wary of anyone who makes it easy to ignore those goals... Yes, it sucks to fail... and it's nice to have a warm bed to come home to -- win or lose... but when given the choice... skip the easy path (rut), go for the challenge -- that's how you learn and grow. The solution to your problems isn't on the easy path, you say you've been on that path for 7 years without success... time to try something new.
[+] [-] pavel_lishin|9 years ago|reply
Seriously? You're living in a house your mother gave you, and you've got two children to feed, and you don't want to work at a gas station because you'd be embarrassed?
Is this a weird cultural thing, where ten years of Russian upbringing followed by a decade plus in Texas, both rural in urban makes me incapable of feeling sympathy for a man who'd be too embarrassed to be seen feeding his family?
How is that more shameful than writing an article for the world, admitting that you're too scared of a bit of social stigma to get a temporary job to help you get by?
[+] [-] lj3|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jwhitlark|9 years ago|reply
I don't believe in "men's" work, "woman's" work, "immigrants" work... there is only work that needs doing. Being someone who is know to take on whatever needs doing is a great way to get better jobs.
[+] [-] acedinlowball|9 years ago|reply
The author knows exactly what he is doing and he is succeeding. I'm certain he will either have several thousand dollars in donations or a high-paying job by the end of the week.
This is the age of entitlement. You only have to do what you feel like doing and feelings are all that matter.
[+] [-] nikki-9696|9 years ago|reply
Oh, cry me a river. I put myself through school on retail. I am a programmer. If I lost this job, I'd be back to retail in a heartbeat while I worked to find a new IT job. I have a very hard time having sympathy for someone who goes on and on about how bad he has it while he's not willing to work a job that is "beneath" him. What classes are you taking? What are you doing to get more relevant? Github is free. Resources are free. Many classes are free. Get your StackOverflow on. Shit, I get offers from there frequently and all I have done is answer some questions.
Your kids are hungry because you're too good to get a job at a freaking grocery store??
[+] [-] sickbeard|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] sctb|9 years ago|reply