Yup. The inheritors of wealth and other rich people get to ride fast on nearly-empty roads, and the rest of the population has to be crammed onto fewer, slower roads, causing a positive feedback loop.
Works just as intended, provided you're one of the ones who can afford it.
Snark aside, "supply and demand" fails to fairly set price when the demand is inelastic -- e.g. when people need to drive home in the snow after work, and there are limited other options. As for the toll road being built "for that purpose," remember when the government was supposed to build roads for all it citizens, not just those who could afford it?
Yes. $30 seems like a lot to me for this and it's kind of shocking, but we're not talking about price gouging for food, water, or some basic necessity. We're raising the price of toll lanes specifically built as express lanes and funded through these tolls. They just get people home faster than the regular lanes.
Additionally, I suspect that in these conditions if they charged the regular prices, so many people would take the express lanes that they would slow to a crawl like the rest of the road, frustrating their purpose.
It wasn't due to demand though. It was due to price being calculated by sensors that detect lane speed. The lane was ridiculously slowed by two snow trucks, so it computed a high price.
That said, it's probably reasonable snow trucks get extremely high priority.
It wasn't working 100%, at least. The dynamic pricing is supposed to keep traffic moving at a speed of at least 45MPH. I was going southbound past them at Tysons Corner and they were nearly at a standstill. Which means these high prices were too low!
> the company (said) two salt and plow trucks were working on the southbound Express Lanes on I-495 and I-95, causing traffic to slow and increasing the toll on those lanes.
So no one was going anywhere because of salting and plowing yet the tolls were unaffected and they increased the premium - which would have changed... nothing.
I think perhaps it worked as intended right? The goal seems to be to keep traffic free flowing in the lane.
> Tolls for the Express Lanes are dynamic, meaning they change periodically based on real-time traffic conditions to keep the Lanes free-flowing.
> However, rates may rise significantly above the typical range for periods of time in the event of unusually heavy congestion or a specific event like a traffic accident or lane(s) closure.
So because the trucks were slowing things down the price raised deterring more vehicles from entering and slowing this down more. It makes sense to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe I misread this but my understanding is that the algorithm is intended to have all lanes have the same flow rate. If one lane is slow, charge more on that lane to incentivize people to use the other lanes instead. If all lanes are flowing equally, they will be priced (mostly) equally.
In this case, the slowness was based on weather conditions and plow trucks not because all the traffic was on express lane and all other lanes were empty. Clearly, their algorithm needs to take road conditions into account when creating this prices.
I didn't read this as a premium to use the express lane or only allow rich people to get home, just an unintended consequence of a beneficial program finding an edge case.
Honestly, I only saw a few flurries. I think everyone saw that and hopped on the express lanes. The day before a little rain fell and there were accidents everywhere. Guessing it was fresh on our collective minds.
I passed a lot of cars in the express lanes on my way home. Cringing at the though of what car accidents lay ahead, but everything was clear.
Yet another money grab by the government, as if the nearly 60% tax rate isn't enough (federal, state, sales, fuel, DMV, etc).
They did this the classical way too, introduce it at ridiculously low prices <$1 just to get the system in place and then they've wasted very little time in raising prices.
Ive used them in the SF Bay Area and Los Angeles where they converted car pool lanes to be express ways and carpool lanes.
It would be great if they were forced to provide evidence that they actually work because to the casual observer they don't work.
To those arguing that driving is a privilege, supply demand etc, get off your high horses. It's tough getting to work in these cities without a car, it sucks seeing lanes taken away and give to the wealthy, and it sucks even more to have the government take even more money without evidence of results.
I live in the DC area and what people don't understand here is last year we had a massive congestion disaster when the first snow hit during rush hour. People were trapped on the roads for hours as the conditions got worse. I had a coworker leave work at 4:00pm and didn't get home till 11:00.
I would have had no problems what so ever paying $30 to not be stuck in that again. $30 less than going out to dinner here.
The crazy thing is, AFAIK, it's based on real-time demand on the expressway itself and makes it more expensive when that is more crowded. So you get to pay more, just to drive behind other people. You'd think it would be slightly different, where if it's clearer than the road it's bypassing and traffic on that road is really slow, then raise the price.
I take this road, and while I feel a free market is great (which this isn't, there are only really 2 choices, my way or the highway), this is absolutely ridiculous. The problem is if I decide to take this route I have to go out of my way to get there. Then if I see that it's $30 I need to turn around and backtrack for like 10 minutes to take another route.
And we aren't talking about a long stretch of road. If it was 20 miles and it saved me an hour, awesome! We are talking about A FEW MILES and for my route it saves about 15 minutes.
And I might even sing a different tune if EZPass wasn't such an awful system. When you take a trip on the east coast and you forget to fill your stupid EZPass up manually beforehand, get ready for a ton of tickets! Oh, you remembered the morning of your trip, thank god! NOPE. F U. It takes like 2 days to process your payment.
I'm not sure about you, but I have the option of having my EZPass balance refilled automatically after it gets below a certain threshold -- I have mine set at $10, but I don't go through a lot of tolls everyday. I get a statement every month saying when it refills itself from my bank account. Never have to worry about it, even when going on long trips!
Elastic pricing is whole point of the toll lanes. They are supposed to be stupid expensive when traffic is heavy; otherwise, it would just be another lane
That said, I use them all of the time during non peak hours so I can drive 75-80 without being 10+ over speed limit. (Most express lanes in the DFW are set to 75. The express lanes in the Delmarva area are pretty lame in this regard. They don't even give you a speed bump. It's purely a "pay to suffer less" service.)
Google maps consistently attempts to route you onto these lanes if you are travelling on the west beltway, which is annoying. They have an option to "skip tolls", which might work but isn't the same thing -- there's a difference between opt-in tolls and tolls that are required to use a bridge or highway.
Does anyone know of other cities / areas using this type of pricing? It sounds like this is pretty new, and I'd be interested in seeing any research / studies on the long term impact of this kind of pricing.
I could see how it is both useful and could have a disproportionate, negative impact on lower social-economic classes.
I-95 in South Florida. Currently it maxes out at $10 but I heard they are increasing it to $20.
Not sure if there has been any research, but yes I have heard on the radio how some people are against the express lanes because it does have a negative impact for those who can't afford it, and it's quite dangerous.[1] The latter might be due to a bad implementation however.
Austin, Texas has dynamic pricing on TX-1 express lanes.
I think the algorithm there is probably similar to this one and would ratchet up the price if a slow truck/construction/plow created a condition that looked like congestion.
At first I was appalled.. but then -- screw you and your cars (myself included). It is a horrible solution that we've had for decades, and something has to change. There's no better way than a suplex to the wallet.
Wonder if there will be any exemptions for high occupancy or EVs or whatever. Not necessarily saying there should be, but wouldn't be the first time a 'special' lane has exemptions.
Because the whole point of these express lanes is that they're (supposed to be) always moving quickly and never congested. The price is set to whatever it takes to achieve that. People who don't want to pay can take the normal lanes.
[+] [-] qntty|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SamBam|9 years ago|reply
Works just as intended, provided you're one of the ones who can afford it.
Snark aside, "supply and demand" fails to fairly set price when the demand is inelastic -- e.g. when people need to drive home in the snow after work, and there are limited other options. As for the toll road being built "for that purpose," remember when the government was supposed to build roads for all it citizens, not just those who could afford it?
[+] [-] ohyoutravel|9 years ago|reply
Additionally, I suspect that in these conditions if they charged the regular prices, so many people would take the express lanes that they would slow to a crawl like the rest of the road, frustrating their purpose.
[+] [-] sp332|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] slashcom|9 years ago|reply
That said, it's probably reasonable snow trucks get extremely high priority.
[+] [-] mikeash|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SonicSoul|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j1vms|9 years ago|reply
> the company (said) two salt and plow trucks were working on the southbound Express Lanes on I-495 and I-95, causing traffic to slow and increasing the toll on those lanes.
So no one was going anywhere because of salting and plowing yet the tolls were unaffected and they increased the premium - which would have changed... nothing.
[+] [-] claydiffrient|9 years ago|reply
> Tolls for the Express Lanes are dynamic, meaning they change periodically based on real-time traffic conditions to keep the Lanes free-flowing.
> However, rates may rise significantly above the typical range for periods of time in the event of unusually heavy congestion or a specific event like a traffic accident or lane(s) closure.
So because the trucks were slowing things down the price raised deterring more vehicles from entering and slowing this down more. It makes sense to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[+] [-] snarf21|9 years ago|reply
In this case, the slowness was based on weather conditions and plow trucks not because all the traffic was on express lane and all other lanes were empty. Clearly, their algorithm needs to take road conditions into account when creating this prices.
I didn't read this as a premium to use the express lane or only allow rich people to get home, just an unintended consequence of a beneficial program finding an edge case.
[+] [-] pavel_lishin|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 6DM|9 years ago|reply
I passed a lot of cars in the express lanes on my way home. Cringing at the though of what car accidents lay ahead, but everything was clear.
[+] [-] aninhumer|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] totally|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] temp246810|9 years ago|reply
They did this the classical way too, introduce it at ridiculously low prices <$1 just to get the system in place and then they've wasted very little time in raising prices.
Ive used them in the SF Bay Area and Los Angeles where they converted car pool lanes to be express ways and carpool lanes.
It would be great if they were forced to provide evidence that they actually work because to the casual observer they don't work.
To those arguing that driving is a privilege, supply demand etc, get off your high horses. It's tough getting to work in these cities without a car, it sucks seeing lanes taken away and give to the wealthy, and it sucks even more to have the government take even more money without evidence of results.
[+] [-] DanCarvajal|9 years ago|reply
I would have had no problems what so ever paying $30 to not be stuck in that again. $30 less than going out to dinner here.
[+] [-] ianstallings|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dumbfounder|9 years ago|reply
And we aren't talking about a long stretch of road. If it was 20 miles and it saved me an hour, awesome! We are talking about A FEW MILES and for my route it saves about 15 minutes.
And I might even sing a different tune if EZPass wasn't such an awful system. When you take a trip on the east coast and you forget to fill your stupid EZPass up manually beforehand, get ready for a ton of tickets! Oh, you remembered the morning of your trip, thank god! NOPE. F U. It takes like 2 days to process your payment.
F EZPASS AND THE HORSE IT CAME IN ON.
Not that I am mad or anything.
[+] [-] moron4hire|9 years ago|reply
Why aren't you on autopay? This is a problem of your own making. I have the same, exact EZPass you have and I never have this problem.
[+] [-] zcdziura|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nunez|9 years ago|reply
That said, I use them all of the time during non peak hours so I can drive 75-80 without being 10+ over speed limit. (Most express lanes in the DFW are set to 75. The express lanes in the Delmarva area are pretty lame in this regard. They don't even give you a speed bump. It's purely a "pay to suffer less" service.)
[+] [-] flavor8|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dquigley|9 years ago|reply
I could see how it is both useful and could have a disproportionate, negative impact on lower social-economic classes.
[+] [-] felideon|9 years ago|reply
Not sure if there has been any research, but yes I have heard on the radio how some people are against the express lanes because it does have a negative impact for those who can't afford it, and it's quite dangerous.[1] The latter might be due to a bad implementation however.
[1] https://www.kairelaw.com/car-accidents/lane-diving-make-i-95...
[+] [-] brechin|9 years ago|reply
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/mnpass/howmnpassworks.html
[+] [-] amykhar|9 years ago|reply
I remember reading a while back about a European city that was using it with great success. I don't remember which one though.
[+] [-] wyldfire|9 years ago|reply
I think the algorithm there is probably similar to this one and would ratchet up the price if a slow truck/construction/plow created a condition that looked like congestion.
[+] [-] organsnyder|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] austincheney|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ortuna|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] c17r|9 years ago|reply
And they are HOT-3 lanes. With the proper EZ-pass transponder and 2 passengers, you flip a switch and pay no toll.
I used to commute to Alexandria for work. Would spend about $15 a day for tolls to use the Express Lanes. Totally worth it.
[+] [-] btbuildem|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neiled|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 6DM|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ohyoutravel|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] acomar|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] finid|9 years ago|reply
Why should toll prices be based on demand?
[+] [-] mikeash|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] John23832|9 years ago|reply