All of the pessimism ("This only worked because Iceland is so small/white/etc, it would never work in the US") in this thread baffles me. Are there a lot of other wildly successful approaches we should try first? Did you not read the bits about the Icelandic approach working well in other cities?
If anything, it sounds like the lesson here is that what worked so well is not just the approach, it's the implementation. (It's not like "build a sports facility" or "pass a curfew" or "encourage parents to spend more time with their kids" haven't been tried in the US) What I took home is that those same approaches which have had limited success when done on a small scale work a lot better when they're well-funded and taken seriously and used consistently for a long time.
America has this attitude in general, and it drives me insane. "Our problems are different so we can't use the proven (healthcare|internet|public-transportation|drug-abuse|poverty|etc) solutions that other countries use!"
Sure, some things are different, and it's important to understand why solutions work in one country, and how they may not work in others. But the US has a large problem with thinking that our problems are unique when they aren't.
Why do you believe we haven't tried this in the US?
The problem is the amount of money vs the number of students served. Midnight basketball and similar programs do indeed work, but the per capita expense is not small.
In addition, these after school programs come with a significant liability issue in the US. Many after-school programs have been nuked because nobody wants to have to hire police and security for when a bunch of drunk idiots show up and start a brawl.
If you check the 2005 vs 2012 suicide stats for iceland you'll see that in the same period substance abuse might have decrease, however suicide rates in Iceland have significantly increased...
Sure, but Iceland is so very different from America in so many ways, that it's fair to point that out.
Alcohol for example - there was never any taboo about drinking in Iceland. It was never seen as a justice issue before or after the program.
Also - the communities as a whole were never failing. You had 'decent families', decent municipalities etc..
I'd imagine, in most of America where there is decent governance, decent jobs, good families: there is not a massive problem with smoking and alcohol. There might be issues with marijuana and hard drugs possibly, both of which represent a different kind of issue entirely.
To me - the 'Iceland' solution seems pretty straightforward on the scale of 'social malaise' to deal with. 14 year olds getting drunk and smoking - just by 'cracking down' a little bit on under-age serving, liquor stores/cigarettes - changing a few laws, trying to change social norms - you'd likely be able to move the needle a bit. A more integrated social program would yield even better benefits as we see.
But imagine an Aboriginal community trying to do the same thing: there is usually a lack of coherent leadership, lack of basic justice and trust in the justice system, lack of funds, and much deeper social problems (incidence of rape is through the roof, there's a lot of violence, suicide etc.), there's poverty, joblessness, and very few have any hope for the future. Now that puts alcohol abuse in a different category.
If there were 'normal suburbs' in America with vicious underage drinking and smoking problems, I'd say Iceland provides a good solution.
Interesting report. I wonder how they motivated kids to attend the after-school programs? It doesn't really talk about that extensively. At least for me, I used to attend an after-school program and a major motivator was being able to spend time doing things with girls I liked. The party scene at that time mostly was a proxy for the same thing. Giving teens a chance to socially and romantically interact outside of the structure of school might be all that's needed to get people to show up and participate.
I pretty much agree with their conclusions though from my own personal experiences. The most trouble I've gotten into in my life, even as an adult, was out of boredom more than anything else.
Oh man. And then they drink 'till comma whenever they get out of the country, because alcohol it's so expensive in Iceland.
How do I know? Married to an Icelandic woman, have seen my fair share of drunk Icelandic people when they come to Portugal on vacation, and do they get wasted...
That article is communicating a false impression -- 49 is not a very large number, but that's more then enough liquor stores ("vinbudins", similar in function to Sweden's "systembolagets") for a very small country.
Additionally, that's just take-home liquor; Iceland has many bars and restaurants, as well as many places that sell low-alcohol beer.
this is an interesting question. without any data to back it up, my suspicion as an american is no, I would guess you'd have to look at much smaller towns to find an area like that.
I'm so glad I had just 6 hours of school per day. While I did play in a music schools ensemble, I'm much more fond of the time I spent in bands and esembles away from schools hierarchy and with people I especially cared about. Same goes for doing art and programming founding a venture for concerts and so much more...
This is a problem in every society, and must be addressed in a different way. If the role of government is to provide its children with a fundamental understanding of themselves and how to manage their individual motivations, perhaps the resulting adults will be better equipped to rise above their parents' shortcomings? Strong family and team dynamics will pull how healthier people live into stronger contrast in such a situation.
Oy, this thread. I've griped about this before - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12864151#12865128 - we really need a snappy name for the "I know it works in every other country, but it can't possibly work in the US" argument-slash-fallacy.
It's not inherently wrong and it can be true, but it's used so reflexively and across so many different domains (drug use, public transit, taxes, guns, health, voting, labor rights) that I have to think it's more of a thought-terminating-cliché to shut down any discussion of the topic than an honest attempt to find a solution. People just don't want to think about it, and it causes a ton of cognitive dissonance to see that a solution they politically dislike can work, so they jump to this.
They cut smoking/drinking by providing facilities for after school programs for kids to sign up for, which presumably a large portion have been told to go by their parents (probably to stop them from smoking/drinking).
I know this observation has zero bearing on the data presented, but I also noticed that not a single child in those photos has anything resembling a smile. NONE of them look happy to be there.
The weird requirement that everyone smile at cameras and photographers only take pictures of smiling people is a relatively recent cultural convention, started in the US and then spread around the world by US influence. I think it has something to do with the culture of photography used for advertising/sales.
If you try taking pictures of very young children who haven’t yet been indoctrinated into the smile-for-the-camera tradition, they’ll make a wide variety of facial expressions for the camera. But American (& al.) children learn very young that the cultural norm is to always make sure to smile when a camera is pointed at you. Even if the children don’t figure this out for themselves (and they usually do), parents and other adults are often quick to tell them to smile or scold them for not smiling.
If you look at pictures of people in posed pictures in the 19th century or in parts of the world where there are few cameras/photographs, the standard expression is usually a serious/formal one. And if you look at candid pictures, people will just be making whatever natural expression they had.
Maybe it's a cultural thing but I don't always associate smiling with "happy". My wife were looking at some old pics of our son and we commented how happy he must have been in one of them because of how serious he looked!
NB I'm in Scotland, which does have a bit of a reputation for being a bit dour. ;-)
The photos in the article are not shot in-the-moment. The children pose in front of a camera, probably with lighting around. They don’t smile because they are in a kind of serious setting, look into a camera and do not interact with anyone.
Edit: Maybe the photographer is bad at soliciting emotions from his subjects.
TL;DR: Idle kids 'waste' their energy getting into self destructive behaviors. When the youthful energy is focused on a useful and valued skill, the chances of addictive behaviors is significantly lowered.
very contained and rather unique place. very little of their success is transferable elsewhere though.
it's easy to police borders of a super tiny country in the middle of atlantic ocean, not interesting place for smugglers. (been there, and apart from Reykjavik whole island is almost completely empty with tiny closed villages here and there).
> A law was also passed prohibiting children aged between 13 and 16 from being outside after 10pm in winter and midnight in summer.
totalitarian approach, could be successful but also strapping every kid to the bed would prevent drug consumption. its a question how far will state go to remove freedom to protect citizens.
> very little of their success is transferable elsewhere though.
Could you elaborate why you come to this conclusion?
> it's easy to police borders of a super tiny country in the middle of atlantic ocean, not interesting place for smugglers.
Alcohol and cigarettes are not marked as contraband. There is no reason to assume smuggling had any effect on substance abuse.
> apart from Reykjavik whole island is almost completely empty with tiny closed villages here and there).
like most of the mid-west?
> totalitarian approach,
and forcing children to attend school for the majority of their waking day isn't? They haven't reach adult age yet and most people would agree that children are not able to fully appreciate the extend of their actions.
> its a question how far will state go to remove freedom to protect citizens.
Judging by the US 'war on drugs', I'd say US citizens are willing to remove many freedoms, children and adults alike.
I think it's rather peculiar to come to the conclusion that there is little information for other countries.
1. Using various policies, Iceland has been able to strongly reduce the amount of substance abuse in their country.
2. Other countries suffer from substance abuse as well
3. The article notes that the method is mostly data driven. This implies similar methods should apply to different countries.
How do you come to the conclusion that the information presented in the article is not applicable to other countries? Why would a racial dissimilar, larger and heterogeneous population not benefit from a data-driven approach to limit substance abuse?
I'd go the opposite way: because the populations are larger, noise has less influence on the data-driven approach and tests can be accelerated.
If you're trying to argue that Iceland's population is therefore just not culturally predisposed to juvenile delinquency, underage drinking, smoking, or drug abuse, you must have missed the part where Iceland started out with high measured levels of those things, then staged interventions, and wound up with low levels of those things.
> Smoking is going out of fashion pretty fast in USA too.
Source?
Yes, Smoking traditional tobacco is going out of fashion pretty much around the world. It's been replaced by the increasing popular E-Cigarrettes / "Vaping", which is also Tobacco and poses the same health risks as traditional tobacco.
Especially very prevalent among-st Teenagers and young people. Heavily marketed by Big Tobacco as "Safe".
Don't forget to mention the religious diversity, where only 71% of the population belongs to the official Luthern Church of Iceland, while the heathens of the Free Luthern church in Reykjavík and Hafnarfjörður only comprise 5% of the population.
[+] [-] mundo|9 years ago|reply
If anything, it sounds like the lesson here is that what worked so well is not just the approach, it's the implementation. (It's not like "build a sports facility" or "pass a curfew" or "encourage parents to spend more time with their kids" haven't been tried in the US) What I took home is that those same approaches which have had limited success when done on a small scale work a lot better when they're well-funded and taken seriously and used consistently for a long time.
[+] [-] CaptSpify|9 years ago|reply
Sure, some things are different, and it's important to understand why solutions work in one country, and how they may not work in others. But the US has a large problem with thinking that our problems are unique when they aren't.
[+] [-] Trill-I-Am|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bsder|9 years ago|reply
The problem is the amount of money vs the number of students served. Midnight basketball and similar programs do indeed work, but the per capita expense is not small.
In addition, these after school programs come with a significant liability issue in the US. Many after-school programs have been nuked because nobody wants to have to hire police and security for when a bunch of drunk idiots show up and start a brawl.
[+] [-] thinkMOAR|9 years ago|reply
If you check the 2005 vs 2012 suicide stats for iceland you'll see that in the same period substance abuse might have decrease, however suicide rates in Iceland have significantly increased...
[+] [-] edblarney|9 years ago|reply
Alcohol for example - there was never any taboo about drinking in Iceland. It was never seen as a justice issue before or after the program.
Also - the communities as a whole were never failing. You had 'decent families', decent municipalities etc..
I'd imagine, in most of America where there is decent governance, decent jobs, good families: there is not a massive problem with smoking and alcohol. There might be issues with marijuana and hard drugs possibly, both of which represent a different kind of issue entirely.
To me - the 'Iceland' solution seems pretty straightforward on the scale of 'social malaise' to deal with. 14 year olds getting drunk and smoking - just by 'cracking down' a little bit on under-age serving, liquor stores/cigarettes - changing a few laws, trying to change social norms - you'd likely be able to move the needle a bit. A more integrated social program would yield even better benefits as we see.
But imagine an Aboriginal community trying to do the same thing: there is usually a lack of coherent leadership, lack of basic justice and trust in the justice system, lack of funds, and much deeper social problems (incidence of rape is through the roof, there's a lot of violence, suicide etc.), there's poverty, joblessness, and very few have any hope for the future. Now that puts alcohol abuse in a different category.
If there were 'normal suburbs' in America with vicious underage drinking and smoking problems, I'd say Iceland provides a good solution.
Outside of that, I think it's much more complex.
[+] [-] tristor|9 years ago|reply
I pretty much agree with their conclusions though from my own personal experiences. The most trouble I've gotten into in my life, even as an adult, was out of boredom more than anything else.
[+] [-] r00fus|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Gargoyle|9 years ago|reply
https://warontherocks.com/2015/09/your-guide-to-drinking-in-...
[+] [-] funnyfacts365|9 years ago|reply
How do I know? Married to an Icelandic woman, have seen my fair share of drunk Icelandic people when they come to Portugal on vacation, and do they get wasted...
[+] [-] mjolk|9 years ago|reply
Additionally, that's just take-home liquor; Iceland has many bars and restaurants, as well as many places that sell low-alcohol beer.
[+] [-] aylmao|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Florin_Andrei|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mahyarm|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] haser_au|9 years ago|reply
Research: http://justice.uaa.alaska.edu/research/2010/1010.voa/1010.04...
List of Cities: https://ballotpedia.org/Largest_cities_in_the_United_States_...
[+] [-] tribby|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stillsut|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anotheryou|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 8421504|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _archon_|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Analemma_|9 years ago|reply
It's not inherently wrong and it can be true, but it's used so reflexively and across so many different domains (drug use, public transit, taxes, guns, health, voting, labor rights) that I have to think it's more of a thought-terminating-cliché to shut down any discussion of the topic than an honest attempt to find a solution. People just don't want to think about it, and it causes a ton of cognitive dissonance to see that a solution they politically dislike can work, so they jump to this.
[+] [-] markdown|9 years ago|reply
The 'murican bigness' argument.
[+] [-] flukus|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] netsharc|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] prog_1|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bussierem|9 years ago|reply
I know this observation has zero bearing on the data presented, but I also noticed that not a single child in those photos has anything resembling a smile. NONE of them look happy to be there.
[+] [-] jacobolus|9 years ago|reply
If you try taking pictures of very young children who haven’t yet been indoctrinated into the smile-for-the-camera tradition, they’ll make a wide variety of facial expressions for the camera. But American (& al.) children learn very young that the cultural norm is to always make sure to smile when a camera is pointed at you. Even if the children don’t figure this out for themselves (and they usually do), parents and other adults are often quick to tell them to smile or scold them for not smiling.
If you look at pictures of people in posed pictures in the 19th century or in parts of the world where there are few cameras/photographs, the standard expression is usually a serious/formal one. And if you look at candid pictures, people will just be making whatever natural expression they had.
[+] [-] arethuza|9 years ago|reply
NB I'm in Scotland, which does have a bit of a reputation for being a bit dour. ;-)
[+] [-] fedorarer|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kluny|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tqkxzugoaupvwqr|9 years ago|reply
Edit: Maybe the photographer is bad at soliciting emotions from his subjects.
[+] [-] sharkweek|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eeZah7Ux|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Florin_Andrei|9 years ago|reply
Now go to the mediterranean riviera and everyone is smiling broadly and talking loudly even when they feel like murdering someone.
[+] [-] 725686|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kelvin0|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saiya-jin|9 years ago|reply
it's easy to police borders of a super tiny country in the middle of atlantic ocean, not interesting place for smugglers. (been there, and apart from Reykjavik whole island is almost completely empty with tiny closed villages here and there).
> A law was also passed prohibiting children aged between 13 and 16 from being outside after 10pm in winter and midnight in summer.
totalitarian approach, could be successful but also strapping every kid to the bed would prevent drug consumption. its a question how far will state go to remove freedom to protect citizens.
[+] [-] edejong|9 years ago|reply
Could you elaborate why you come to this conclusion?
> it's easy to police borders of a super tiny country in the middle of atlantic ocean, not interesting place for smugglers.
Alcohol and cigarettes are not marked as contraband. There is no reason to assume smuggling had any effect on substance abuse.
> apart from Reykjavik whole island is almost completely empty with tiny closed villages here and there).
like most of the mid-west?
> totalitarian approach,
and forcing children to attend school for the majority of their waking day isn't? They haven't reach adult age yet and most people would agree that children are not able to fully appreciate the extend of their actions.
> its a question how far will state go to remove freedom to protect citizens.
Judging by the US 'war on drugs', I'd say US citizens are willing to remove many freedoms, children and adults alike.
[+] [-] gingerrr|9 years ago|reply
I'm guessing you didn't know that roughly 70% of US cities also have a youth curfew in effect? (http://www.usmayors.org/publications/curfew.htm, from a 1995 study)
[+] [-] jameshart|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tn13|9 years ago|reply
Good for Iceland that their teenagers don't smoke as much. But there is little information for other countries in there.
Smoking is going out of fashion pretty fast in USA too.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/12/13/teens-d...
[+] [-] edejong|9 years ago|reply
1. Using various policies, Iceland has been able to strongly reduce the amount of substance abuse in their country.
2. Other countries suffer from substance abuse as well
3. The article notes that the method is mostly data driven. This implies similar methods should apply to different countries.
How do you come to the conclusion that the information presented in the article is not applicable to other countries? Why would a racial dissimilar, larger and heterogeneous population not benefit from a data-driven approach to limit substance abuse?
I'd go the opposite way: because the populations are larger, noise has less influence on the data-driven approach and tests can be accelerated.
[+] [-] jameshart|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Florin_Andrei|9 years ago|reply
With that can't do attitude of course things will never get fixed in the US.
[+] [-] sean_patel|9 years ago|reply
Source?
Yes, Smoking traditional tobacco is going out of fashion pretty much around the world. It's been replaced by the increasing popular E-Cigarrettes / "Vaping", which is also Tobacco and poses the same health risks as traditional tobacco.
Especially very prevalent among-st Teenagers and young people. Heavily marketed by Big Tobacco as "Safe".
Sources:
1) CDC: Tobacco Use Among Middle and High School Students — United States, 2011–2015: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/65/wr/mm6514a1.htm?s_cid=mm...
1) England: Smoking rate continues to decrease while vaping gains in popularity http://www.vapingpost.com/2016/09/22/england-smoking-rate-co...
2) The good news is that cigarettes are out these days. The bad news is that tobacco is still in. http://www.teenvogue.com/story/vaping-tobacco-popularity
[+] [-] Zigurd|9 years ago|reply
Arf. Arf.
[+] [-] flubert|9 years ago|reply
http://px.hagstofa.is/pxen/pxweb/en/Samfelag/Samfelag__menni...