The problem with major Credit Card companies is that they're all American and that the US of A is incredibly moralistic. For the sake of convenience, I'm considering PayPal to be part of the same club of moralistic knobs.
It's virtually impossible to set up any kind of online shop without accepting one or more of PayPal, MasterCard, Visa or AmEx. As soon as you accept money for anything one of these FOUR(!) financial behemoths objects to, you're out of luck. You'll be forced to stop using them, and as soon as you do you'll see your revenue drop dramatically.
And why? All because a couple of old men in suits think that they know what's "acceptable". Nevermind the legalities. PayPal makes it impossible to sell pornography, which is perfectly legal in large parts of the civilized world.
It used to be impossible to pay for porn with PayPal, however last year (I think) one of the biggest names in gay porn started accepting them as a payment method, so I guess something changed.
Two or three big players in the credit card market can effectively shutdown a business.
Honest question: do we need better enforcement for the First Amendment rights in the current digital era? Shop owners cannot decide who enters in their shop, should digital service providers be allowed to discriminate?
The same happens when someone is banned from Facebook and Twitter: of course there are other options, but he won't be able to reach 95% of the Internet audience.
Edit: maybe should've spoken about a "different, active enforcement" rather than "better enforcement".
Businesses aren't allowed to discriminate against protected classes, but can discriminate against non-protected classes, and can apparently even impinge on protected classes in some ways when their restrictions aren't arbitrary (are tied to some reasonable business concern) and are applied universally.
These boundaries don't appear to have anything to do with the First Amendment.
"Honest question: do we need better enforcement for the First Amendment rights in the current digital era?"
No. What we need is a bill of rights to protect us from corporations that would censor us and otherwise work with the government to oppress our rights.
Plain and simple, all big business needs to be regulated at this point. They've proven themselves unworthy of being given free-roam.
If there was ever a use for [insert favorite crypto currency here] gaining adoption, the killer feature is that payments can't be halted or frozen to accounts.
It sounds like they got hit by people who were unaware of what FetLife is following due diligence in processing card transactions. As far as I can discern, it's just a social network with a darker focus, which led to an overreaction from a card network.
Why haven't you embraced Bitcoin to get away from the restrictions of the banks / credit card companies? - @Eibon
Answer:
We used to accept bitcoins through Coinbase. They dropped us a year ago because we are a kinky site. No joke.
If a Bitcoin site wants to accept credit cards, then they have to adhere to rules set forth by the credit card companies.
Yes, there are other options, and we are going to look into them, but options like Bitcoin are a nice to have and not currently a viable replacement for being able to accept credit and debit cards on FetLife, no matter how much one might want to believe otherwise.
When we offered Bitcoin as an option, it was responsible for less than 0.1% of our daily transactions.
It's not dark at all. It's just a place for people to list their kinks. Nothing nefarious. It's very popular in the kinkier sub-communities of the furry fandom.
edit: I got this mixed up with F-List, which is similar in function with a narrower focus.
We need more sex positivity in this world. While I agree that some of the contents of Fetlife was objectionable from a legal standpoint the owners did a good job at getting rid of those things.
I think the objection today has mostly to do with the fact that they want to tell us what we do in our bedrooms.
> I think the objection today has mostly to do with the fact that they want to tell us what we do in our bedrooms.
Yeah we already see the first signs with Trump defunding abortion organizations. However I don't believe Trump to be behind this, much more Mike Pence.
And I'm really, really afraid that someone will either successfully impeach, maim or kill Trump - because then Mike Pence will succeed him, without anyone to check his powers, given that he'll have the entire extremist religious people in the GOP behind him.
I am a member of the FetLife community as well as an HN reader. First, let me clear up some misconceptions about FetLife that people on here may have.
It's not a porn site, or at least not primarily a porn site. The UX is a lot closer to that of Facebook but specifically for kinky people. If you go to a kink conference and meet someone, they will likely ask for your FL name to connect with you (incidentally Twitter is the other popular mechanism for communicating with fellow kinksters).
FL has a subscription model, and the main benefit you get out of that is the ability to view other members' posted media better. There is a section of the site called Kinky & Popular which is similar to Reddit's front page. Since people can Love (e.g. like/heart/etc.) their friends' pictures and videos, some become popular and land on this front page. Viewing more than the top 200 or watching the videos requires a subscription of $5/month. This section is dominated by media of pretty, skinny, submissive women, and can be seen as having porn-like content. Note that what ends up here is purely moderated by the community and is not promoted by the FL staff. The people whose media ends up here do not get paid for it.
FL until recently has had a very loose content policy. Things like blood play, consensual non-consent, rape fantasies were all allowed. Illegal things were not: no underage media, no snuff, etc. But people were free to discuss their fantasies, their kinks, etc. without much restriction. Whether you agree or disagree with stuff that gets someone off, you were free to discuss what you want and fantasize about what you want, as long as what you are posting violates no US laws.
FL serves an important purpose to our community: it is a place to share events and local community knowledge, to keep up with people, and importantly to identify abusers. This is the main benefit I see in it and it would be the biggest loss if FL went under.
These latest developments have obviously put a damper on things at FL. They have contacted several groups that are able to advocate for them and give advice, and even the EFL at one point was involved. However, the outlook is bleak. Sadly, the community is not united in supporting FL due to seemingly arbitrary content restrictions, and FL is unable to provide a reasonable level of service without those. If someone knows a way to help this community, please post it here and I'll do my best to point it out to the powers that be there. I am not affiliated with the FL staff, just a user, but they do talk to the community freely and frequently.
There are things that, in the interest of global freedom, need to be taken out of the hands of corporations and government, permanently, forever. The transfer of value is definitely one of them.
This has more front-loaded backstory than a recipe post at Pioneer Woman Cooks, but it sounds like a harbinger for Puritan effects on commerce. Who could be next on the list of these card companies? The cannabis world already has their own troubles, so maybe the ratchet will next tighten on them. That a criteria for canceling an account can be "Illegal or immoral," like those are synonyms, is telling.
> The cannabis world already has their own troubles, so maybe the ratchet will next tighten on them
IIRC cannabis merchants can't even open bank accounts, much less accept credit cards. The only way that they can be annoyed further is by restricting the amount of cash they can hold in the store - which actually would make sense, given that a pot stop filled to the brim with cash is a prime target for gangsters.
There is a lot of escorting on Fetlife, a quick check of the site will reveal plenty of prostitution which is why I didn't apply there for a job when they were once advertising for Rails devOps people with a gigantic salary(for Canada) and I went through the site to check it out. Too risky to end up like Redbook people who got arrested.
Consider their market. It's one thing to send a transaction which is in bank and payment processor records, but at least is mostly anonymous on the other side. It's another to send a piece of paper signed with your name, saying you're subscribing to an online fetish community.
Why not Bitpay? I'm not associated with them, and have never been on the merchant side of the transaction, but it seems like a 'safe' bitcoin option. And based on my quick read of their merchant TOS[0] bitpay shouldn't (in theory) have an issue with the nature of FetLife's business.
As an aside, it's fun to watch a bunch of old, technically-illiterate and conservative financiers unknowingly sow yet another little seed of their own destruction. I guess being at the top of the heap can make one feel invulnerable...
They did try Coinbase before and said that it accounted for less than 0.1% of their transaction volume. People just don't use BitCoin enough. I imagine if it was a higher percentage, you could make the case that switching to BTC-only would drive it higher, but at such minimal numbers, staking your entire business on it seems like a bad risk.
I started hearing about this several days ago via a subreddit. There had been some confusion//discussion about what was going on regarding the group deletions.
[+] [-] Tharkun|9 years ago|reply
It's virtually impossible to set up any kind of online shop without accepting one or more of PayPal, MasterCard, Visa or AmEx. As soon as you accept money for anything one of these FOUR(!) financial behemoths objects to, you're out of luck. You'll be forced to stop using them, and as soon as you do you'll see your revenue drop dramatically.
And why? All because a couple of old men in suits think that they know what's "acceptable". Nevermind the legalities. PayPal makes it impossible to sell pornography, which is perfectly legal in large parts of the civilized world.
[+] [-] sp332|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] prnthrowaway|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] zakk|9 years ago|reply
Honest question: do we need better enforcement for the First Amendment rights in the current digital era? Shop owners cannot decide who enters in their shop, should digital service providers be allowed to discriminate?
The same happens when someone is banned from Facebook and Twitter: of course there are other options, but he won't be able to reach 95% of the Internet audience.
Edit: maybe should've spoken about a "different, active enforcement" rather than "better enforcement".
[+] [-] LordKano|9 years ago|reply
Which is just the tip of the iceberg as to why the idea of a cashless society is so terrifying.
Shop owners cannot decide who enters in their shop, should digital service providers be allowed to discriminate?
Oddly enough, if you belong to a group or political faction that is highly reviled, they certainly can.
Remember when a Wal-Mart refused to provide a birthday cake for a child whose name was "Adolph Hitler Campbell"?
[+] [-] tptacek|9 years ago|reply
These boundaries don't appear to have anything to do with the First Amendment.
[+] [-] lightedman|9 years ago|reply
No. What we need is a bill of rights to protect us from corporations that would censor us and otherwise work with the government to oppress our rights.
Plain and simple, all big business needs to be regulated at this point. They've proven themselves unworthy of being given free-roam.
[+] [-] Shank|9 years ago|reply
It sounds like they got hit by people who were unaware of what FetLife is following due diligence in processing card transactions. As far as I can discern, it's just a social network with a darker focus, which led to an overreaction from a card network.
[+] [-] kefka|9 years ago|reply
Why haven't you embraced Bitcoin to get away from the restrictions of the banks / credit card companies? - @Eibon
Answer:
We used to accept bitcoins through Coinbase. They dropped us a year ago because we are a kinky site. No joke.
If a Bitcoin site wants to accept credit cards, then they have to adhere to rules set forth by the credit card companies.
Yes, there are other options, and we are going to look into them, but options like Bitcoin are a nice to have and not currently a viable replacement for being able to accept credit and debit cards on FetLife, no matter how much one might want to believe otherwise.
When we offered Bitcoin as an option, it was responsible for less than 0.1% of our daily transactions.
[+] [-] noarchy|9 years ago|reply
So it looks like any use of a cryptocurrency has to be completely decoupled from the credit card world.
[+] [-] RileyKyeden|9 years ago|reply
edit: I got this mixed up with F-List, which is similar in function with a narrower focus.
[+] [-] xutopia|9 years ago|reply
I think the objection today has mostly to do with the fact that they want to tell us what we do in our bedrooms.
[+] [-] mschuster91|9 years ago|reply
Yeah we already see the first signs with Trump defunding abortion organizations. However I don't believe Trump to be behind this, much more Mike Pence.
And I'm really, really afraid that someone will either successfully impeach, maim or kill Trump - because then Mike Pence will succeed him, without anyone to check his powers, given that he'll have the entire extremist religious people in the GOP behind him.
[+] [-] underdown|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Analemma_|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mcdoug|9 years ago|reply
It's not a porn site, or at least not primarily a porn site. The UX is a lot closer to that of Facebook but specifically for kinky people. If you go to a kink conference and meet someone, they will likely ask for your FL name to connect with you (incidentally Twitter is the other popular mechanism for communicating with fellow kinksters).
FL has a subscription model, and the main benefit you get out of that is the ability to view other members' posted media better. There is a section of the site called Kinky & Popular which is similar to Reddit's front page. Since people can Love (e.g. like/heart/etc.) their friends' pictures and videos, some become popular and land on this front page. Viewing more than the top 200 or watching the videos requires a subscription of $5/month. This section is dominated by media of pretty, skinny, submissive women, and can be seen as having porn-like content. Note that what ends up here is purely moderated by the community and is not promoted by the FL staff. The people whose media ends up here do not get paid for it.
FL until recently has had a very loose content policy. Things like blood play, consensual non-consent, rape fantasies were all allowed. Illegal things were not: no underage media, no snuff, etc. But people were free to discuss their fantasies, their kinks, etc. without much restriction. Whether you agree or disagree with stuff that gets someone off, you were free to discuss what you want and fantasize about what you want, as long as what you are posting violates no US laws.
FL serves an important purpose to our community: it is a place to share events and local community knowledge, to keep up with people, and importantly to identify abusers. This is the main benefit I see in it and it would be the biggest loss if FL went under.
These latest developments have obviously put a damper on things at FL. They have contacted several groups that are able to advocate for them and give advice, and even the EFL at one point was involved. However, the outlook is bleak. Sadly, the community is not united in supporting FL due to seemingly arbitrary content restrictions, and FL is unable to provide a reasonable level of service without those. If someone knows a way to help this community, please post it here and I'll do my best to point it out to the powers that be there. I am not affiliated with the FL staff, just a user, but they do talk to the community freely and frequently.
[+] [-] hollerith|9 years ago|reply
I think you mean the EFF (the Electronic Frontier Foundation).
[+] [-] troncheadle|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dragontamer|9 years ago|reply
Visa, Mastercard, and AmEx are doing this on behalf of their own internal policies. Welcome to the free market.
[+] [-] rhizome|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mschuster91|9 years ago|reply
IIRC cannabis merchants can't even open bank accounts, much less accept credit cards. The only way that they can be annoyed further is by restricting the amount of cash they can hold in the store - which actually would make sense, given that a pot stop filled to the brim with cash is a prime target for gangsters.
[+] [-] hackermailman|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jakebasile|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] viraptor|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beat|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spangry|9 years ago|reply
As an aside, it's fun to watch a bunch of old, technically-illiterate and conservative financiers unknowingly sow yet another little seed of their own destruction. I guess being at the top of the heap can make one feel invulnerable...
[0] https://bitpay.com/about/terms#merchant
[+] [-] mcdoug|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drdeadringer|9 years ago|reply
I'm glad to get more of the story.
[+] [-] the8472|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hackerboos|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sre_ops|9 years ago|reply
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