I seriously doubt the intention of people behind this order has anything to do with security and safety of US citizens. In fact from my point of view, looking at the list of the countries which are banned you can see they could not care less about US citizens. For instance, for crying out load, 15 out of 19 hijackers involved in 9/11 were Saudi citizens. But why Saudi Arabia is not in the list? This is just a game of politics.
And the other four were from Egypt, Lebanon and the UAE, also not on the list. Yet the EO starts by using the September 11 attacks as an example of the consequences of not vetting foreign nationals thoroughly.
I am not a Trump fan. On the contrary, I'm more one of his biggest opponents of him and ALL what he stands for but the list of countries banned from entering the US and referenced in the text in his EO -- 8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12)--[0] is compiled by the SoS before him coming in office.
He's just riding on the coattails of former admins to expand the scope of the restrictions and sanctions imposed by them.
It's surprising that countries such as Canada, Australia and EU nations are not making any attempt to lure tech companies and students from countries affected by the executive orders. The US is literally leaving some of the best students, researchers and highly qualified employees out in the cold.
In the long term, if this madness persists, of course they will. Companies and skilled individuals are transnational now, and if you try to shut them in or make travel impossible, they'll just leave and set up somewhere else, or never come and found new companies in the first place.
I think Trump and his supporters are playing by an outdated rule book and think they can turn the clock back on globalisation and force companies and people to stay within their borders however uncomfortable he makes it. There is a very similar dynamic going on with Brexit in the UK, but this will take years or decades to play out.
I know people from the banned countries who got their degree from best in the world PhD groups, who are going to or went to Canada for jobs because of this election.
A surprising number of Iranians get PhDs from Stanford, MIT and CMU. They're exceptionally talented and kind, in my experience.
This EO was issued yesterday US time and other countries are still studying their moves in relation to this EO but I wouldn't be surprised if some decide to court some of those talents esp Iranians, Iraqis and Syrians.
I can't believe all the other responses to this question were either positive or from someone abroad! Perhaps I live in a bubble (Philadelphia), but there is a pretty unified view of how it "feels" right now: embarrassing. Awful. It feels like a bad dream that we're expecting to wake up from. And people are _afraid_ of what's to come from the administration, and of the attitude that the election has seemed to condone. The feeling is so strong here that it reminds me of riding public transit on a snow day -- you can generally make any remark to any random stranger about the snow and instantly relate to one another. That's how it is about Trump. His rhetoric does _not_ reflect the views of the majority of Americans (as the popular vote shows).
This stuff makes me worry about family back 'home' - and whether I'll be able to get back out again. Do I risk not seeing my spouse or do I hold out on visiting family? My spouse, who is not American, refuses to go back with me if I do.
Edit: Some things I thought of after I hit send:
I realize this may be unfounded, but things are so... unsure ... right now that I don't trust the government at all. In addition, I'm relying on news and it looks pretty dire. This looks like the sort of policies that American's used to laugh at.
Good. The income of laborers and low-wage workers has been artificially suppressed due to uncontrolled immigration working at rates lower than minimum wage. My hope is that these actions will increase the wages of the lower class, which will increase the velocity of the dollar in America and get our economy going again.
It is sad that many illegal immigrants will be deported, but if we provide a path to citizenship, it sends a message to others thinking about coming illegally that if you come and wait long enough, you'll gain citizenship. That's a dangerous message in my opinion.
For me and many many others I know, it's terrifying and enraging. Also I'm deeply ashamed.
Also wrt HN: like some others I am a bit surprised to see the strong Trump support here, but then, hate is so often over-represented behind the shield of anonymity.
I despise Trump, but in a perverse way, I welcome the damage he will inevitably do. The harder he and his staff of racist oligarchs swing the pendulum of American politics to the right, the more swift and brutal the retribution will be when it swings back, as it must.
He's going to discredit the axioms of the alt-right, disgrace the Republican party and, hopefully, ruin the office of President so much that actual core political reforms take place if for no other reason than to prevent anything like that from happening again.
I've lived in Canada my whole life, but I'm also a born U.S. citizen.
I feel hopeful about the outcome of the election. I'm interested to see what can happen with an effective reset of corporate sponsorship in the highest seat of government. The nice side effect of businesses not believing that he could become president, is that they didn't have as much time to buy favours.
The proposed rules for regulatory bodies (one in, two out) could considerably reduce the financial and emotional cost of doing business in the U.S. and perhaps finally undo some long-standing pay-for-play regulations.
As it stood, I would have felt terrified and uncertain if I were to start a business in the U.S. one year ago.
I don't think Donald Trump is necessarily any better of a person than the other candidates; but I think he has a better chance of doing good by accident. The alternatives seemed like they were trying to trick the U.S. into paying for their expensive lifestyles in spite of the consequences to the public.
1. What is the difference between elected dictatorship and democracy?
2. Will Americans stop screaming 'Murica', 'We are number 1' from now? This president and how elections are held in this country are a joke. So much for democratic process and respect for the office.
The people who actually supported Trump are likely pleased with how things are going. He's doing exactly the sorts of things he said he would do. In the US, the President does have a pretty crazy amount of power, and recent Presidents have all expanded that power, with Congress's and the Supreme Court's assent most of the time. So now we get a President with no respect for the office or anything, which is exactly how he campaigned, and he's going to abuse that power as much as he can. It's truly frightening.
As for democracy, this election actually wasn't an example of it. Millions more voters voted against Trump. The US Presidential election system is obviously broken. It was obviously a ridiculous system before the elections of 2000 and 2016 proved that it was.
Believe me, most Americans agree with you that our elections have become a joke. Congressional districts have been redesigned in the past 10 years to give Republicans a huge unnatural advantage in the House of Representatives. And the US Constitution itself gave us the undemocratic Senate and Electoral College. These things are by design. They were built to be safeguards against democracy run amok. But now the GOP has figured out how to make those safeguards work against the country. It's going to get ugly. It could happen really fast. I'm genuinely scared about the future of the US and the world.
Well, but how is it not democratic? Didn't Trump say many times he'd do exactly this, and he won?
Arguably executive orders should not exist, nor should a powerful President. The Swiss system of a rapidly rotating presidency and strong "state rights" seems preferable to me. But the USA has strong elected Presidents and I never saw any American seriously challenge that setup, I hear more talk of states seceding than I see talk of changing the constitution to limit the power of the POTUS.
So I don't see your point. The people were given a (fairly crappy) choice, made it, now their preferences are being implemented. That's democracy.
Don't get me wrong. I think locking people who live in America out of the country because they happened to be on vacation at the time is outrageous, stunningly stupid. But maybe if prior generations of politicians had been more responsive to anti-Muslim sentiment things wouldn't have got so extreme now.
1) If I had to guess you are conflating two things when you say democracy. When people say 'democracy' in western countries they are usually referring to a particular form of democracy: liberal representative democracy, or also occasionally refereed to as constitutional democracy. Its quite possible to have illiberal democracies with some contemporary illiberal democracies being Egypt, Russia, Philippines, and increasingly Turkey. Democracy, in either its representative or direct form doesn't guarantee liberal values such as due process, freedom of the press, and formal or informal political oppositions.
A population can keep willing electing a dictator and that dictator could even be popular, but that political system would not be a 'democracy' as you might normally recognise; it will espouse none of the liberal values that places like the UK and the US typically expect.
The Dictator's Handbook is a great book if you're interested in the difference between autocracies and democracies. Also, CGP Grey's 'The Rules for Rulers' video is a good intro if you only have 20 mins -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs
Executive orders are quite limited in their scope although they may be very harmful.
They are not laws and can certainly be illegal and hence repelled.
>What is the difference between elected dictatorship and democracy?
In countries where elected dictators rule you can vote for anyone you want, as long as its the dictator.
>Will Americans stop screaming 'Murica', 'We are number 1' from now? This president and how elections are held in this country are a joke. So much for democratic process and respect for the office.
This statement only holds water if you'd feel that same way if your preferred candidate won.
I don't think that this EO is applied to holders of valid green cards in the US but definitely people on visas like H1B are definitely to be affected but I think that a company of the size of Google could make some arrangements as a quick remedial to situation by transferring some to other countries where they have operations to work from there till they figure out how to handle this situation going forward.
Assuming the executive order holds up, In the best case they will be allowed to reenter the U.S. after 90 days. The executive order suspends immigrant and nonimmigrant entry for only 90 days for people from specific countries not on a Diplomatic, NATO, UN, or International Organization staff visa.
This suspension could be renewed very easily and even extended to other countries. There's a report on NYT [0] which fielded questions to Iranian officials and politicians looking for their reaction to this EO and they made it very clear that they won't share any sensitive info about their citizens with the US admin rendering them to be the most likely candidate to be permanently banned from entering the US esp. when taking into account that they top the list of those seven countries in terms of visa holders in 2015.
Of course, the 90 days is there to give them time to come up with a more permanent policy, which will as likely as not be worse. If any terror attacks happen in that period, they will turn the screws even harder.
I suspect existing visa/GC holders will be allowed back in quickly once Tillerson is confirmed(better than 90 days). Not that that would mitigate how phenomenally short sighted and stupid the EO was.
Are there any noises about coming capital controls on foreign remittances? Seems like a logical next step to enforce the lock-out of foreigners and lock-in of assets.
[+] [-] sasanrose|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dghf|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gotchange|9 years ago|reply
He's just riding on the coattails of former admins to expand the scope of the restrictions and sanctions imposed by them.
[0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1187
[+] [-] XorNot|9 years ago|reply
Nor do any of them have Trump brand hotels in them.
[+] [-] flycaliguy|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jopython|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ploggingdev|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grey-area|9 years ago|reply
I think Trump and his supporters are playing by an outdated rule book and think they can turn the clock back on globalisation and force companies and people to stay within their borders however uncomfortable he makes it. There is a very similar dynamic going on with Brexit in the UK, but this will take years or decades to play out.
[+] [-] hiddencost|9 years ago|reply
A surprising number of Iranians get PhDs from Stanford, MIT and CMU. They're exceptionally talented and kind, in my experience.
[+] [-] gotchange|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] k__|9 years ago|reply
London, Berlin, Barcelona are names I always hear when they talk about tech start-ups in Germany.
With the Brexit an this EO, maybe the dream of Berlin to become THE start-up hub of Europe will finally become true.
[+] [-] gregoriol|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dcip6s|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] timwis|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Broken_Hippo|9 years ago|reply
This stuff makes me worry about family back 'home' - and whether I'll be able to get back out again. Do I risk not seeing my spouse or do I hold out on visiting family? My spouse, who is not American, refuses to go back with me if I do.
Edit: Some things I thought of after I hit send:
I realize this may be unfounded, but things are so... unsure ... right now that I don't trust the government at all. In addition, I'm relying on news and it looks pretty dire. This looks like the sort of policies that American's used to laugh at.
[+] [-] dukeluke|9 years ago|reply
It is sad that many illegal immigrants will be deported, but if we provide a path to citizenship, it sends a message to others thinking about coming illegally that if you come and wait long enough, you'll gain citizenship. That's a dangerous message in my opinion.
[+] [-] kylog|9 years ago|reply
Also wrt HN: like some others I am a bit surprised to see the strong Trump support here, but then, hate is so often over-represented behind the shield of anonymity.
[+] [-] mikeash|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] krapp|9 years ago|reply
He's going to discredit the axioms of the alt-right, disgrace the Republican party and, hopefully, ruin the office of President so much that actual core political reforms take place if for no other reason than to prevent anything like that from happening again.
[+] [-] woofyman|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] microcolonel|9 years ago|reply
I feel hopeful about the outcome of the election. I'm interested to see what can happen with an effective reset of corporate sponsorship in the highest seat of government. The nice side effect of businesses not believing that he could become president, is that they didn't have as much time to buy favours.
The proposed rules for regulatory bodies (one in, two out) could considerably reduce the financial and emotional cost of doing business in the U.S. and perhaps finally undo some long-standing pay-for-play regulations. As it stood, I would have felt terrified and uncertain if I were to start a business in the U.S. one year ago.
I don't think Donald Trump is necessarily any better of a person than the other candidates; but I think he has a better chance of doing good by accident. The alternatives seemed like they were trying to trick the U.S. into paying for their expensive lifestyles in spite of the consequences to the public.
[+] [-] lizavp|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] meanduck|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kylog|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] kylog|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] CamperBob2|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NTDF9|9 years ago|reply
1. What is the difference between elected dictatorship and democracy?
2. Will Americans stop screaming 'Murica', 'We are number 1' from now? This president and how elections are held in this country are a joke. So much for democratic process and respect for the office.
[+] [-] skywhopper|9 years ago|reply
As for democracy, this election actually wasn't an example of it. Millions more voters voted against Trump. The US Presidential election system is obviously broken. It was obviously a ridiculous system before the elections of 2000 and 2016 proved that it was.
Believe me, most Americans agree with you that our elections have become a joke. Congressional districts have been redesigned in the past 10 years to give Republicans a huge unnatural advantage in the House of Representatives. And the US Constitution itself gave us the undemocratic Senate and Electoral College. These things are by design. They were built to be safeguards against democracy run amok. But now the GOP has figured out how to make those safeguards work against the country. It's going to get ugly. It could happen really fast. I'm genuinely scared about the future of the US and the world.
[+] [-] zigzigzag|9 years ago|reply
Arguably executive orders should not exist, nor should a powerful President. The Swiss system of a rapidly rotating presidency and strong "state rights" seems preferable to me. But the USA has strong elected Presidents and I never saw any American seriously challenge that setup, I hear more talk of states seceding than I see talk of changing the constitution to limit the power of the POTUS.
So I don't see your point. The people were given a (fairly crappy) choice, made it, now their preferences are being implemented. That's democracy.
Don't get me wrong. I think locking people who live in America out of the country because they happened to be on vacation at the time is outrageous, stunningly stupid. But maybe if prior generations of politicians had been more responsive to anti-Muslim sentiment things wouldn't have got so extreme now.
[+] [-] a_humean|9 years ago|reply
A population can keep willing electing a dictator and that dictator could even be popular, but that political system would not be a 'democracy' as you might normally recognise; it will espouse none of the liberal values that places like the UK and the US typically expect.
[+] [-] joefreeman|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maxerickson|9 years ago|reply
The people screaming that before this will mostly be proud of this action.
The number of refugees the US had taken from Syria was already pathetic. Stopping taking any is straight up evil.
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] pfortuny|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cmdrfred|9 years ago|reply
In countries where elected dictators rule you can vote for anyone you want, as long as its the dictator.
>Will Americans stop screaming 'Murica', 'We are number 1' from now? This president and how elections are held in this country are a joke. So much for democratic process and respect for the office.
This statement only holds water if you'd feel that same way if your preferred candidate won.
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] gotchange|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Oletros|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hartator|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikeash|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Jabbles|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tristanj|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gotchange|9 years ago|reply
[0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/world/middleeast/trump-vi...
[+] [-] skywhopper|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] audeyisaacs|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _callcc|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
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