Wonderfully written, giving my thoughts a word.
For me and my wife, the USA, despite all their shortcomings, are a country we really want to live in. It stands for many good things. It is not a country you want to mess with, and we are fine with that. We embrace American culture, we love American companies, we so far respected American politicians. For stuff we as individuals are interested in (which might not be what everyone is interested in), the USA is perfect. So far, we live in Germany, but to prove our love, we tried to find ways to at least spend some years in the country we like to visit so much.
Until Friday. Now we are banned. My wife is Iranian. This is always a burden because of some extensive visa requirements, but we accepted the fact. With a bit of planning, we could go anywhere we wanted, go visit NYC, enjoy the plains of Texas, visit houses to buy in Dallas. All gone. We already are "extreme vetted". But now, our trust is broken. We wanted to tour Miami and Washington with our little daughter in April. Thank god we had not yet booked. This situation feels very strange. Empty.
As an American (and German as a second language speaker) I'm very sorry. I hope you will consider coming back to visit when this nonsense ends. I've lived here my whole life and have hardly had a chance to explore 10% of the land. We need good people. We need smart people. We (most of us) want you.
As an American, I have a lot of respect for Iran. It's a beautiful country with great people. But when I turn on the news and I see "Death to America" being chanted or Iranians trample or burn the American flag the rust is broken. Not to mention the 1983 Beirut Barracks Bombing which killed hundreds of Americans and was committed by a group directly funded by the Iranian gov't. The situation feels very strange. Empty.
> As of 2017, the United States, through a sequence of highly improbable events, managed to elect an extremely controversial president.
I think it a mistake to see this as a random fluke and chuck it up to chance. It seems like chance to those who were asleep or were watching news from their own bubble.
Trump is a symptom of something that was already there probably decades in the making. If we ignore the conditions which created Trump, if we only pay attention to what is in our own Facebook feed we'll end up with another Trump, and another. Every time assuming it was random or an act of God or Russians or whatever.
Also where were all these prominent tech people and CEOs when Obama was Hillary were busy destabilizing the region, bombing civilians and arming rebels in that part of the world. I find a bit hypocritical everyone being upset about a travel ban and not upset about much worse stuff. But this is about waking up so it is a good first step.
> And he signed an executive order that literally, not figuratively, banned Muslims from entering the US
It was a list created by the Obama administration for largely the same purpose. And was even used for a while to actually ban people from a Muslim country. Was there any outrage, how many tech leaders pledged to oppose the unfair blocking of refugees then? Also why didn't Trump block Indonesia instead if this this infamous Muslim ban. If this was a general Muslim ban it doesn't seem very effective just based on the countries it covers.
Let's criticize Trump and his politcies but is this the main and most serious thing to expend all the effort on? We should be paying attention to his cabinet picks, trade deals, economic and military policies.
And also, to be effective it is important to have well defined and realistic goal. Goals such as "removing Trump" are probably not realistic for the next 4 years. But in this case maybe trying to remove some countries from the ban like Iran for ex., or lobbying and campaigning to allow green card holders to be unaffected by it is better.
I think I'm taking crazy pills but...I distinctly remember watching TV back home in India in 2003 and seeing how everyone was cheering when American troops invaded Baghdad.
I don't know what's the right thing to do here honestly. You can spend 10 more years trying to "fix" Iraq, or you can just pull out, say "go to hell" and try to fix your home.
This situation should have never happened in the first place
Best post by a mile. Not only did America elect Trump, Sanders also did mighty fine for someone who in years past would be considered unelectable.
People pass around figures about GDP and low unemployment to prove to themselves things are absolutely fine, but then you dig further and you find that many feel lost and desperate.
Obama said "America is already great", and many people found it a vomit-inducing quip. In many ways liberals brought this upon themselves.
I find similarities in how liberals deal with Trump and how americans in general dealt with 9/11. "They hate us for our freedoms" is a much more palatable idea than thinking about systemic dynamics.
> Trump is a symptom of something that was already there probably decades in the making. If we ignore the conditions which created Trump, if we only pay attention to what is in our own Facebook feed we'll end up with another Trump, and another. Every time assuming it was random or an act of God or Russians or whatever.
Yes, Jeff's post is notes from the filter bubble. Someone I know on Facebook was posting proudly after the election about how his son was spending the weekend reading The Atlantic and other mags to understand the Trump voter.
I said no, you get in a car and drive to a red state and talk to people. Mediated communication is not serving us.
> Trump is a symptom of something that was already there probably decades in the making
And the something is: Democratic entitlement. Larger population is feeling the world owe them happy life, free healthcare and the all the things that successful have "took" from them.
And ofcourse its not sustainable. Democracy is done. I give it at most two more Trumps.
PS: I preassume its ok to talk politics in political threads.
Nice post, though there are some caveats. As a Pole (as some of you know, we do have some issues here too, though many would disagree) I feel at least a bit competent to give you a bit of advice, so you can get out of it better than we did.
1. Donald Trump is not your enemy, nor a problem. He is a manifestation of the problem, which is current state of your society and problems you have. Do not believe that you can just impeach a guy and call it a day.
2. Don't even try to just get back to status quo. That's basically what happened in Poland in 2007 and problems came back after 8 years, worse than ever. The status quo you had created the Donald Trump and would continue to promote similar politicians.
3. Do not hate Trump supporters, do not be mean to them, do not laugh them off. They are people who live in different US than you do. As far as I can tell, most people on HN could retire in their 40s if they wanted to. This is not the reality of average American, as are your salaries and life opportunities. You live in a bubble and you need to accept it and reach out to learn what the world looks like for an average Joe.
4. You have a lot of power now, do not lend it to random politicians, as they will try to capitalize on your emotions. Hillary Clinton was not some heavenly figure, she had her bunch of issues too. Those issues were just of lesser importance to you. It is quite likely, that if Democrats nominated Sanders, he would win with Trump. They did not nominate him for the reason - he also wanted to change quite a lot, just in different direction than Trump. No matter what your political views are, his popularity showed that what your people expect is change and they will fight for it, because they have much less to loose than you. Acknowledge that and find a way to deal with it.
5. Do not expect the situation to just calm down. It won't. It is not some kind of mistake that can be solved by moving to popular vote. Life ain't that simple. You have people working full-time who cannot afford the living. You have one of the most expensive and unreachable for many healthcare systems. You do have degressive taxing systems. You have much smaller middle class that you are used too. Those problems need attention, you cannot just swipe it under the rag and pretend it's just some kind of national outrage. It isn't.
What you're seeing is your society stopping to work as it used too. It won't bounce back until you decide to do something with it and it might not be pleasant to you. It may mean higher taxes for example. Or some other change you will not be happy about. Trust me, the alternative is much worse.
You know what a lot of people consider worse than Donald Trump? The status quo.
That's what I feel is missing in all this indignation - where were you before? The political system has been deeply broken for decades, with the same unjust policies being pursued regardless of which public face was on it - imperialist militaristic foreign policies abroad, economic inequality at home. All sold to the public with glib marketing campaigns through a monopolized mass media. The whole democracy road show feeling like a sham for the gullible to eat up.
There's a lot not to like about Donald Trump, but for one thing he is an outsider to the established system (I believe in this because of how hard the mainstream media is bent on pulling him down). It is hard for me to see that as anything but an improvement.
He's a billionaire who inherited around $750 million. He didn't pay his taxes. His chief of staff was chairman of the Republican party. His cabinet have a combined net worth of $6 billion. If anyone represents the powers-that-be, he does. If anyone has a glib marketing campaign, it's the Trump presidency in claiming to be 'outsiders'.
And if you think the political system is broken, well, you haven't seen nothing yet.
> how hard the mainstream media is bent on pulling him down
Maybe the media is criticizing him because, you know, he does things that deserve criticism.
"Both parties are the same" is such a tired meme considering what has happened the past 8 days.
Do you think President Clinton would be defunding planned parenthood? Planning a repeal of a healthcare law without a replacement, making 20 million people lose their health insurance immediately? Appoint a brain surgeon to HUD?
Do you think Democrats would set up this muslim ban? Not a 6-month refugee ban, but a ban from people who were already legal permanent residents?
Both parties might share a similar vein of imperialism, that deserved to be fought. But it ends there.
One party wanted to carpet bomb Iran, another wanted to make peace.
And, of course, Trump is the most extreme of this. How do you think someone who advocates nuclear first strike is less imperialistic than the other guys?
The idea that the political system was "deeply broken" before Trump is a popular meme these days, one that IMO is utopian, ahistorical, and increasingly destructive.
Rule of law and representative democracy, as we know them today, are quite young, and the modern take on basic human rights is even younger. When did black people win full equality in the US, even in the legal sense? When did Western colonialism in the middle east and India end? When was the last time Western countries opted for total war and incinerated civilians, en masse? These are all things that are today unthinkable that have actually happened within the lifetime of someone who could plausibly be alive today.
Building a just state and society is a slow, delicate, multi-generational project, and we are just at the beginning. We're just now getting to a place where we're moving past barbaric mass violence and mass racist persecution. And you expect us to have a good handle on subtle, systemic problems like inequality and imbalance between state and private power? Have a little perspective and patience!
It's like people look around, notice that we're not in fact in some enlightened Star Trek like utopia, declare that the whole edifice rotten, and decide that the best response is nihilistic glee - why not burn it all down? Get a grip.
This is a fair point. I don't agree with your conclusion, though.
I have felt outrage against specific policies in the past. The news media has expressed outrage against specific policies in the past. But political inertia, for better and worse, was a thing that we could rely upon to temper the public whims of any particular commander-in-chief. It meant that meaningful change required constant attention and guidance. But it also meant that the actions of any individual were unlikely to crater our democracy.
The new president has now shown in both tone and action that he intends to directly manifest some of the most extreme positions promised to his supporters. This, in the face of overwhelming ethical arguments, public opinion, and systemic protections that oppose them.
This is not a threat to the local status quo, one which our political system has grown to evolve slowly but meaningfully over election cycles. It is a threat to the maximal status quo, in which we can proudly identify ourselves as Americans because we believe that we aren't perfect, but we're working towards that ideal.
Yes, the unsustainable, burned-out status quo. The last administration could create conflict, but couldn't eke out even modest support for a new ground war in Syria.
The elderly Democratic party has no bench and the same old message. The Republican party has a massive spending problem and too many hawks. Even with a system rigged for the status quo, Trump was able to win. That's what I mean by unsustainable - people chose the deeply flawed naysayer over the alternatives.
The status quo, such as it was, in 2016, was worse than... what?
I'm just not seeing how my life, or my neighbors lives, are improved by anything that's come so far. Or that is on the promised list of things to come.
It is actually already worse for some of us than it was 11 days ago.
> There's a lot not to like about Donald Trump, but for one thing he is an outsider to the established system
Or from another perspective a billionaire managed to get elected through spending enormous amounts of cash on a huge publicity machine that imprinted a simplistic and repetitive message of being an outsider on large numbers of people as if that in itself is a positive quality. /Serial killers/ are outsiders.
This didn't exactly happen in a vacuum. A country can't be a major power without trying to gain influence throughout the world; all of the other major powers are doing it too.
Of course, it's also possible to renounce the game of global influence entirely. But be careful what you wish for.
Because that's what we've chosen with Trump: building literal and figurative walls around the country. Apparently we are planning to... isolate ourselves back to greatness?
Perhaps in some ideal world we could be "noble isolationists" and close our borders, eyes, and ears to the world without a populist thirst for xenophobia and racism, secure in the knowledge that other global powers will shape the world (or perhaps become noble isolationists themselves?) for the better in our absence.
I wish I shared that fantasy; it's a particularly nice one.
The United States' meddling in world affairs has ranged from "helpful" to "disastrous." But it's absolute madness to think that others will not attempt to assert control in the power vacuum we're leaving behind. Do you really think Russia will be better for the world than us? Maybe you should ask Ukraine about that one.
There's a lot not to like about Donald Trump, but for one thing he
is an outsider to the established system (I believe in this because
of how hard the mainstream media is bent on pulling him down). It
is hard for me to see that as anything but an improvement.
A literal billionaire with a cabinet of millionaires and billionaires is now an "outsider." What is wrong with you?
I understand that they are "outsiders" in the sense that they have no experience running any form of government whatsoever.
But these people are not outsiders to the system. They have profited from the system to a degree the average American cannot fathom. They literally are the system.
>The political system has been deeply broken for decades, with the same unjust policies being pursued regardless of which public face was on it - imperialist militaristic foreign policies abroad, economic inequality at home.
Addressing the concerns of the Trump supporters is the only way forward. Why are they angry?
Silicon Valley - one of the richest sectors of society, is up in arms because the disenfranchised "have nots" are expressing their anger about being "have nots" by just tearing the whole damn thing down. The "have nots" say - through Trump and his actions - "OK, you got everything, we got nothing, here's the payback".
The have nots are angry and simply want to smash everything. The process is only just starting.
The ONLY solution is to bring the "have nots" back to being "haves". When you fight Trump, you simply fight the "have nots". You cannot fight them, you must take away Trumps support base by winning them over, not opposing them.
On one side, we have the working class made up of people who don't care too much about moral ideals because they can barely afford the "Safety" step on the Maslow pyramid.
On the other side, we have the elites who don't seem to care about the daily struggles of the working class and instead prefer to indulge their need for self-actualization by focusing on convenient moral ideals instead of inconvenient practicalities.
Why weren't any of these celebrities protesting when Washington bailed out the big banks during the financial crisis? That issue had much more significant ramifications on the average American but the elites didn't care because doing something about it would have hurt their stock portfolios.
Man, I'm working out of an office in an industrial area in New Delhi, India.
Literally across my office is a scrap metal dealer. He has about a dozen guys literally hammering metal to flatten it storing it.
This is work that can be done in minutes by a simple machine. But he has 12 people doing it because it's likely cheaper or because he doesn't know that a machine like that exists.
This is happening all across the world and no one is willing to address it. People are angry because there is no "real work" left for them anymore. Even in startups around me, I see so many jobs that don't need to exist. We're just "creating work" by adding jobs that don'tn need to exist, or refusing to adopt technology.
The way the world is right now, something had to give. Trump is just a symptom of that.
i sincerely hate when people from anywhere say that. During the second half of the 20th century, the american government was directly or indirectly responsible for at least half of the conflicts on that planet. Americans need to wake up, they are as much the beacon of tyranny than they are the beacon of the "free world". It's just that most Americans don't care about what their own government does abroad. And it didn't start with Bush II.
> And we do it by taking the higher moral ground,
I absolutely hate that too, this is so arrogant. There is really a disconnect between how some Americans view themselves and how the rest of the world see them for what their government actually is: playing war-games on a constant basis and selling the PAX AMERICANA as something just.
I'm sorry but i'm extremely disappointed by Jeff here, this is just wrong and insulting for the rest of the world.
For all the bad that Trump does, I hope that at least it will tone down this sense of superiority coming from Americans, because that's the source of many problems.
> how negligent and dangerous Trump is as the leader of the free world.
You're not the leader of the free world, not according to most of the rest of the world, because of your foreign policy post WWII. You supported dictatorships, rigged democratic elections, trained death squads in south america, killed millions in Vietnam, spoiled their land with agent orange, invaded countries like Iraq that did nothing to you, all in the name of "freedom" ... freedom for whom?
One thing that might be missing from this action plan is "get into local action".
If you vote Democrat, there were many uncontested republican seats that voted Clinton. The Democratic party has had its foundation fall out, and its mostly because the local-level stuff has fallen completely by the wayside.
Hell, you can even just run for office in 2018. All the DNC chair candidates agree that there are not enough people offering to run on the Dem ticket for congress (hence uncontested seats).
If you want to be third party, start trying to win local elections. There too, maybe you can present yourself. If 5 people from a third party got into congress through the house, that'd be a big deal. Best way to do that? Concentrated local efforts.
Also, state legislatures are important! Look at California
Just like gov't is more than once every 4 years, government is not just the presidency, or just federal. Every level matters.
Bombing predominately Muslim countries, overthrowing governments and covert black sites where Muslims get tortured. These are things that are acceptable, but a 90-day ban on immigrants coming from war-torn countries, that's a step too far? Has everyone seriously lost their mind?
I'm encouraged by those who realize that they have a responsibility to our country. Freedoms are not only fought for with guns and tanks. Nor is voting our only responsibility.
And beyond the politics and policy, we all have a role in developing our culture. I hope we will all choose patience and education of one another rather than condemnation and divisiveness.
"We lead the free world. And we do it by taking the higher moral ground, doing what is right before doing what is expedient."
It's at this point that you know for sure Jeff is ignorant of American government policy.
His heart seems in the right place and he's taking some important steps. But along with it I think he needs to educate himself. Can't fix problems you don't even believe exist.
Having the luxury of time and money like the OP has allows for an extensive checklist like this. Kudos for putting it out there and for fighting a good fight. However, many people don't have the bandwidth or financial stability to divert activity away from non-stability generating activities.
Sadly the more I thought about this, the more I'm finding it difficult to see any internet posts as anything other than contributing to a constant stream of agenda pushing and/or humble bragging. FB started it and I fear now we a stuck with everything (including of course these comments) washing away in a sea of noise.
>Mexican culture is ingrained deeply into America and we are all better for it.
How is this the case? Multiculturalism is not necessarily a good thing.
I'm reminded of Thiel's The Diversity Myth. We no longer question whether some of these statements are true. Diversity is not necessarily a good thing and sometimes it can actually be detrimental by allowing for the tolerance of mediocre standards in a society.
The reality is that nothing was achieved in helping the poor and those suffering. Empty words and promises. Now that the shit has hit the fan, the well off are actually talking about politics and getting mobilized, because their own interests are on the line.
I have high respect for CodingHorror, which is why I am confused about some of his claims.
Perhaps HN can help me understand a few things:
- why do people claim it is a muslim ban, when really it seems to be a ban on countries that the US is fighting a war with (except Iran)? Whether there is a causality between "at war with the US" and "Muslim" seems to be another question?
- what is the proper US stance on Immigration? Is the "good" line that there should be no borders at all, and everybody should be able to enter at will? Because the wall, crazy as it sounds, seems to be aimed at illegal immigration. So why not fight for better immigration laws, rather than against the wall?
I have read the memes about Jews who were denied entry to the US and then died in the Holocaust. Fair enough, and as a German, I am actually extra concerned about that. I was always very pro asylum laws, because I thought what if one day there is no US to flee to, if shit hits the fan? Still, the examples also show that immigration to the US was never as open as people seem to think.
I am not sure if the temporary ban or the wall are useful measures - I am not a fan of Trump's politics as such (not all of it anyway). But I still think criticism should be reasonable. It seems reasonable for example to ban people from a country you are at war with from entering. Maybe people are just in denial about being at war? It is only droning, not real war? To be honest it reminds me a bit of Bill Clinton not having sex.
I am not sure illegal immigrants from Mexico are hurting the US - maybe they benefit everyone by providing cheap labor. But then, why not change the immigration laws, rather than pound on an arbitrary measure for enforcing the existing laws?
> how negligent and dangerous Trump is as the leader of the free world.
A torture-endorsing leader of the free world is like the meat-eating leader of vegetarians. Trump is simply not part of the free world, and therefore not it's leader.
[+] [-] geff82|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ooqr|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pzone|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] refurb|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rdtsc|9 years ago|reply
I think it a mistake to see this as a random fluke and chuck it up to chance. It seems like chance to those who were asleep or were watching news from their own bubble.
Trump is a symptom of something that was already there probably decades in the making. If we ignore the conditions which created Trump, if we only pay attention to what is in our own Facebook feed we'll end up with another Trump, and another. Every time assuming it was random or an act of God or Russians or whatever.
Also where were all these prominent tech people and CEOs when Obama was Hillary were busy destabilizing the region, bombing civilians and arming rebels in that part of the world. I find a bit hypocritical everyone being upset about a travel ban and not upset about much worse stuff. But this is about waking up so it is a good first step.
> And he signed an executive order that literally, not figuratively, banned Muslims from entering the US
It was a list created by the Obama administration for largely the same purpose. And was even used for a while to actually ban people from a Muslim country. Was there any outrage, how many tech leaders pledged to oppose the unfair blocking of refugees then? Also why didn't Trump block Indonesia instead if this this infamous Muslim ban. If this was a general Muslim ban it doesn't seem very effective just based on the countries it covers.
Let's criticize Trump and his politcies but is this the main and most serious thing to expend all the effort on? We should be paying attention to his cabinet picks, trade deals, economic and military policies.
And also, to be effective it is important to have well defined and realistic goal. Goals such as "removing Trump" are probably not realistic for the next 4 years. But in this case maybe trying to remove some countries from the ban like Iran for ex., or lobbying and campaigning to allow green card holders to be unaffected by it is better.
[+] [-] puranjay|9 years ago|reply
I don't know what's the right thing to do here honestly. You can spend 10 more years trying to "fix" Iraq, or you can just pull out, say "go to hell" and try to fix your home.
This situation should have never happened in the first place
[+] [-] RodericDay|9 years ago|reply
People pass around figures about GDP and low unemployment to prove to themselves things are absolutely fine, but then you dig further and you find that many feel lost and desperate.
Obama said "America is already great", and many people found it a vomit-inducing quip. In many ways liberals brought this upon themselves.
I find similarities in how liberals deal with Trump and how americans in general dealt with 9/11. "They hate us for our freedoms" is a much more palatable idea than thinking about systemic dynamics.
[+] [-] golemotron|9 years ago|reply
Yes, Jeff's post is notes from the filter bubble. Someone I know on Facebook was posting proudly after the election about how his son was spending the weekend reading The Atlantic and other mags to understand the Trump voter.
I said no, you get in a car and drive to a red state and talk to people. Mediated communication is not serving us.
[+] [-] meanduck|9 years ago|reply
And the something is: Democratic entitlement. Larger population is feeling the world owe them happy life, free healthcare and the all the things that successful have "took" from them.
And ofcourse its not sustainable. Democracy is done. I give it at most two more Trumps.
PS: I preassume its ok to talk politics in political threads.
[+] [-] d3ckard|9 years ago|reply
1. Donald Trump is not your enemy, nor a problem. He is a manifestation of the problem, which is current state of your society and problems you have. Do not believe that you can just impeach a guy and call it a day.
2. Don't even try to just get back to status quo. That's basically what happened in Poland in 2007 and problems came back after 8 years, worse than ever. The status quo you had created the Donald Trump and would continue to promote similar politicians.
3. Do not hate Trump supporters, do not be mean to them, do not laugh them off. They are people who live in different US than you do. As far as I can tell, most people on HN could retire in their 40s if they wanted to. This is not the reality of average American, as are your salaries and life opportunities. You live in a bubble and you need to accept it and reach out to learn what the world looks like for an average Joe.
4. You have a lot of power now, do not lend it to random politicians, as they will try to capitalize on your emotions. Hillary Clinton was not some heavenly figure, she had her bunch of issues too. Those issues were just of lesser importance to you. It is quite likely, that if Democrats nominated Sanders, he would win with Trump. They did not nominate him for the reason - he also wanted to change quite a lot, just in different direction than Trump. No matter what your political views are, his popularity showed that what your people expect is change and they will fight for it, because they have much less to loose than you. Acknowledge that and find a way to deal with it.
5. Do not expect the situation to just calm down. It won't. It is not some kind of mistake that can be solved by moving to popular vote. Life ain't that simple. You have people working full-time who cannot afford the living. You have one of the most expensive and unreachable for many healthcare systems. You do have degressive taxing systems. You have much smaller middle class that you are used too. Those problems need attention, you cannot just swipe it under the rag and pretend it's just some kind of national outrage. It isn't.
What you're seeing is your society stopping to work as it used too. It won't bounce back until you decide to do something with it and it might not be pleasant to you. It may mean higher taxes for example. Or some other change you will not be happy about. Trust me, the alternative is much worse.
Good luck!
[+] [-] aedron|9 years ago|reply
That's what I feel is missing in all this indignation - where were you before? The political system has been deeply broken for decades, with the same unjust policies being pursued regardless of which public face was on it - imperialist militaristic foreign policies abroad, economic inequality at home. All sold to the public with glib marketing campaigns through a monopolized mass media. The whole democracy road show feeling like a sham for the gullible to eat up.
There's a lot not to like about Donald Trump, but for one thing he is an outsider to the established system (I believe in this because of how hard the mainstream media is bent on pulling him down). It is hard for me to see that as anything but an improvement.
[+] [-] verbify|9 years ago|reply
He's a billionaire who inherited around $750 million. He didn't pay his taxes. His chief of staff was chairman of the Republican party. His cabinet have a combined net worth of $6 billion. If anyone represents the powers-that-be, he does. If anyone has a glib marketing campaign, it's the Trump presidency in claiming to be 'outsiders'.
And if you think the political system is broken, well, you haven't seen nothing yet.
> how hard the mainstream media is bent on pulling him down
Maybe the media is criticizing him because, you know, he does things that deserve criticism.
[+] [-] rtpg|9 years ago|reply
Do you think President Clinton would be defunding planned parenthood? Planning a repeal of a healthcare law without a replacement, making 20 million people lose their health insurance immediately? Appoint a brain surgeon to HUD?
Do you think Democrats would set up this muslim ban? Not a 6-month refugee ban, but a ban from people who were already legal permanent residents?
Both parties might share a similar vein of imperialism, that deserved to be fought. But it ends there.
One party wanted to carpet bomb Iran, another wanted to make peace.
And, of course, Trump is the most extreme of this. How do you think someone who advocates nuclear first strike is less imperialistic than the other guys?
[+] [-] m_fayer|9 years ago|reply
Rule of law and representative democracy, as we know them today, are quite young, and the modern take on basic human rights is even younger. When did black people win full equality in the US, even in the legal sense? When did Western colonialism in the middle east and India end? When was the last time Western countries opted for total war and incinerated civilians, en masse? These are all things that are today unthinkable that have actually happened within the lifetime of someone who could plausibly be alive today.
Building a just state and society is a slow, delicate, multi-generational project, and we are just at the beginning. We're just now getting to a place where we're moving past barbaric mass violence and mass racist persecution. And you expect us to have a good handle on subtle, systemic problems like inequality and imbalance between state and private power? Have a little perspective and patience!
It's like people look around, notice that we're not in fact in some enlightened Star Trek like utopia, declare that the whole edifice rotten, and decide that the best response is nihilistic glee - why not burn it all down? Get a grip.
[+] [-] barking|9 years ago|reply
I don't suppose there was ever a possibility of Jeff or all the people currently protesting, voting for Trump in the first place.
So, aren't we just seeing the same people who were anti-Trump before the election, protesting now?
The election of Trump came as a shock even during the count because the Trump voters tended to be quieter and/or ignored.
But they won the election and now what they voted for is being enacted.
[+] [-] thedudemabry|9 years ago|reply
I have felt outrage against specific policies in the past. The news media has expressed outrage against specific policies in the past. But political inertia, for better and worse, was a thing that we could rely upon to temper the public whims of any particular commander-in-chief. It meant that meaningful change required constant attention and guidance. But it also meant that the actions of any individual were unlikely to crater our democracy.
The new president has now shown in both tone and action that he intends to directly manifest some of the most extreme positions promised to his supporters. This, in the face of overwhelming ethical arguments, public opinion, and systemic protections that oppose them.
This is not a threat to the local status quo, one which our political system has grown to evolve slowly but meaningfully over election cycles. It is a threat to the maximal status quo, in which we can proudly identify ourselves as Americans because we believe that we aren't perfect, but we're working towards that ideal.
[+] [-] EdSharkey|9 years ago|reply
The elderly Democratic party has no bench and the same old message. The Republican party has a massive spending problem and too many hawks. Even with a system rigged for the status quo, Trump was able to win. That's what I mean by unsustainable - people chose the deeply flawed naysayer over the alternatives.
[+] [-] test1235|9 years ago|reply
Maybe change was needed, but this is so much worse than before.
[+] [-] selllikesybok|9 years ago|reply
I'm just not seeing how my life, or my neighbors lives, are improved by anything that's come so far. Or that is on the promised list of things to come.
It is actually already worse for some of us than it was 11 days ago.
[+] [-] chimprich|9 years ago|reply
Or from another perspective a billionaire managed to get elected through spending enormous amounts of cash on a huge publicity machine that imprinted a simplistic and repetitive message of being an outsider on large numbers of people as if that in itself is a positive quality. /Serial killers/ are outsiders.
[+] [-] otikik|9 years ago|reply
Well I hope those people like surprises.
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] JohnBooty|9 years ago|reply
Of course, it's also possible to renounce the game of global influence entirely. But be careful what you wish for.
Because that's what we've chosen with Trump: building literal and figurative walls around the country. Apparently we are planning to... isolate ourselves back to greatness?
Perhaps in some ideal world we could be "noble isolationists" and close our borders, eyes, and ears to the world without a populist thirst for xenophobia and racism, secure in the knowledge that other global powers will shape the world (or perhaps become noble isolationists themselves?) for the better in our absence.
I wish I shared that fantasy; it's a particularly nice one.
The United States' meddling in world affairs has ranged from "helpful" to "disastrous." But it's absolute madness to think that others will not attempt to assert control in the power vacuum we're leaving behind. Do you really think Russia will be better for the world than us? Maybe you should ask Ukraine about that one.
A literal billionaire with a cabinet of millionaires and billionaires is now an "outsider." What is wrong with you?I understand that they are "outsiders" in the sense that they have no experience running any form of government whatsoever.
But these people are not outsiders to the system. They have profited from the system to a degree the average American cannot fathom. They literally are the system.
[+] [-] eli_gottlieb|9 years ago|reply
Trump ran on making all of these things worse.
[+] [-] rimantas|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrewstuart|9 years ago|reply
Silicon Valley - one of the richest sectors of society, is up in arms because the disenfranchised "have nots" are expressing their anger about being "have nots" by just tearing the whole damn thing down. The "have nots" say - through Trump and his actions - "OK, you got everything, we got nothing, here's the payback".
The have nots are angry and simply want to smash everything. The process is only just starting.
The ONLY solution is to bring the "have nots" back to being "haves". When you fight Trump, you simply fight the "have nots". You cannot fight them, you must take away Trumps support base by winning them over, not opposing them.
[+] [-] jondubois|9 years ago|reply
The working class enjoys watching the elites get worked up and horrified about Trump.
I think that this election is a manifestation of inter-class conflicts according to "Maslow's hierarchy of needs" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs ).
On one side, we have the working class made up of people who don't care too much about moral ideals because they can barely afford the "Safety" step on the Maslow pyramid.
On the other side, we have the elites who don't seem to care about the daily struggles of the working class and instead prefer to indulge their need for self-actualization by focusing on convenient moral ideals instead of inconvenient practicalities.
Why weren't any of these celebrities protesting when Washington bailed out the big banks during the financial crisis? That issue had much more significant ramifications on the average American but the elites didn't care because doing something about it would have hurt their stock portfolios.
[+] [-] puranjay|9 years ago|reply
Literally across my office is a scrap metal dealer. He has about a dozen guys literally hammering metal to flatten it storing it.
This is work that can be done in minutes by a simple machine. But he has 12 people doing it because it's likely cheaper or because he doesn't know that a machine like that exists.
This is happening all across the world and no one is willing to address it. People are angry because there is no "real work" left for them anymore. Even in startups around me, I see so many jobs that don't need to exist. We're just "creating work" by adding jobs that don'tn need to exist, or refusing to adopt technology.
The way the world is right now, something had to give. Trump is just a symptom of that.
[+] [-] mdemare|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rtpg|9 years ago|reply
His approval is in free fall. What's the low point?
40%? 30%? 20%?
The French president was at one point at 8% approval.
[+] [-] throwaw181ay|9 years ago|reply
i sincerely hate when people from anywhere say that. During the second half of the 20th century, the american government was directly or indirectly responsible for at least half of the conflicts on that planet. Americans need to wake up, they are as much the beacon of tyranny than they are the beacon of the "free world". It's just that most Americans don't care about what their own government does abroad. And it didn't start with Bush II.
> And we do it by taking the higher moral ground,
I absolutely hate that too, this is so arrogant. There is really a disconnect between how some Americans view themselves and how the rest of the world see them for what their government actually is: playing war-games on a constant basis and selling the PAX AMERICANA as something just.
I'm sorry but i'm extremely disappointed by Jeff here, this is just wrong and insulting for the rest of the world.
For all the bad that Trump does, I hope that at least it will tone down this sense of superiority coming from Americans, because that's the source of many problems.
> how negligent and dangerous Trump is as the leader of the free world.
You're not the leader of the free world, not according to most of the rest of the world, because of your foreign policy post WWII. You supported dictatorships, rigged democratic elections, trained death squads in south america, killed millions in Vietnam, spoiled their land with agent orange, invaded countries like Iraq that did nothing to you, all in the name of "freedom" ... freedom for whom?
[+] [-] rtpg|9 years ago|reply
If you vote Democrat, there were many uncontested republican seats that voted Clinton. The Democratic party has had its foundation fall out, and its mostly because the local-level stuff has fallen completely by the wayside.
Hell, you can even just run for office in 2018. All the DNC chair candidates agree that there are not enough people offering to run on the Dem ticket for congress (hence uncontested seats).
If you want to be third party, start trying to win local elections. There too, maybe you can present yourself. If 5 people from a third party got into congress through the house, that'd be a big deal. Best way to do that? Concentrated local efforts.
Also, state legislatures are important! Look at California
Just like gov't is more than once every 4 years, government is not just the presidency, or just federal. Every level matters.
[+] [-] wingerlang|9 years ago|reply
Isn't "banned muslims" the wrong choice of words here? You could enter US as a muslim from e.g. Malaysia still.
[+] [-] MisterWebz|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andyfleming|9 years ago|reply
And beyond the politics and policy, we all have a role in developing our culture. I hope we will all choose patience and education of one another rather than condemnation and divisiveness.
[+] [-] comice|9 years ago|reply
It's at this point that you know for sure Jeff is ignorant of American government policy.
His heart seems in the right place and he's taking some important steps. But along with it I think he needs to educate himself. Can't fix problems you don't even believe exist.
[+] [-] tempodox|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] untilHellbanned|9 years ago|reply
Sadly the more I thought about this, the more I'm finding it difficult to see any internet posts as anything other than contributing to a constant stream of agenda pushing and/or humble bragging. FB started it and I fear now we a stuck with everything (including of course these comments) washing away in a sea of noise.
[+] [-] andrewstuart|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _andromeda_|9 years ago|reply
How is this the case? Multiculturalism is not necessarily a good thing.
I'm reminded of Thiel's The Diversity Myth. We no longer question whether some of these statements are true. Diversity is not necessarily a good thing and sometimes it can actually be detrimental by allowing for the tolerance of mediocre standards in a society.
[+] [-] moultano|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 127|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] josscrowcroft|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] facepalm|9 years ago|reply
Perhaps HN can help me understand a few things:
- why do people claim it is a muslim ban, when really it seems to be a ban on countries that the US is fighting a war with (except Iran)? Whether there is a causality between "at war with the US" and "Muslim" seems to be another question?
- what is the proper US stance on Immigration? Is the "good" line that there should be no borders at all, and everybody should be able to enter at will? Because the wall, crazy as it sounds, seems to be aimed at illegal immigration. So why not fight for better immigration laws, rather than against the wall?
I have read the memes about Jews who were denied entry to the US and then died in the Holocaust. Fair enough, and as a German, I am actually extra concerned about that. I was always very pro asylum laws, because I thought what if one day there is no US to flee to, if shit hits the fan? Still, the examples also show that immigration to the US was never as open as people seem to think.
I am not sure if the temporary ban or the wall are useful measures - I am not a fan of Trump's politics as such (not all of it anyway). But I still think criticism should be reasonable. It seems reasonable for example to ban people from a country you are at war with from entering. Maybe people are just in denial about being at war? It is only droning, not real war? To be honest it reminds me a bit of Bill Clinton not having sex.
I am not sure illegal immigrants from Mexico are hurting the US - maybe they benefit everyone by providing cheap labor. But then, why not change the immigration laws, rather than pound on an arbitrary measure for enforcing the existing laws?
[+] [-] 1ris|9 years ago|reply
A torture-endorsing leader of the free world is like the meat-eating leader of vegetarians. Trump is simply not part of the free world, and therefore not it's leader.