I did the life-ruining one as my previous startup. Then I did one that only turned out to be a nice business. The good project and the disaster both took about 3 years to build but the good project was always making money since week 1 cause it had to sustain me as I'd overextended myself in every way just trying to sustain the disaster.
After about 3 years trying and failing to make the good project earn a lot more money I wanted to do an exciting new startup. Having almost hit 6 digits that third year meant I couldn't just ignore the good project and let it atrophy but I didn't want to pursue an exciting new startup being anchored to the good project all the time. I decided to sell it.
With that decision all of the remaining work became about transitioning from 'code on my computer' to 'coherent and pleasant part time job for someone else to do well'. I replaced bash scripts and w/e other random crap with a web interface and gutted my code and dependencies so that the person they find on craigslist to add something in 2 years won't drown.
Now I'm completely free to work on my new startup and make something like a good salary while I do, someone else takes care of the nice business in 5 hours a week. Probably half of HN could pull that off with a side project or two. This is where patio11 and someone from feinternational.com described the difference between the good project and the nice business -
Just a comment on the expected salaries for developers in London:
- A junior developer at £20k is probably going to do you more harm than good
- £30 - £40k for a junior developer is more reasonable, where £30k would be fresh from red-brick uni (if lucky) or a couple years industry experience
- A senior developer asking less than £50k is probably not super confident (could be various reasons e.g. failing to get other jobs, not super experienced) or experienced with startups
- Good senior developers experienced with startups are more likely to be on a minimum of £60k and anywhere up to £80/90k
Also it's a little more nuanced than this. A first hire developer might (perhaps reasonably) expect to be a CTO or Tech Lead assuming further hires - this is one of the reasons some developers consider working in startups as it's a potential fast track to gain management-like experience. If you're hiring a junior developer, this probably isn't the best idea and it should be made clear to them this isn't the case. In hiring a senior developer it should at the very least be discussed - the outcome of this may potentially be an expectation of higher salary (either immediately or upon company growth). It's not unheard of for small startups (seed / series A) to pay £100k+ for CTOs.
Is this a guideline for startups only? I work as the only dev in a small design company but have no frame of reference for salary expectations as I've never worked with other developers and transitioned into it from a design role. I earn slightly more than the other employees (designers) but that's still under £30k. I would consider myself more experienced than a junior.
Having crunched the numbers in London a couple of times, I think these are pretty much spot on. One thing I will say is that there is a pretty large variance. It depends a lot in what sector you're working. Outside of London is quite a bit cheaper (surprisingly so) and I often wonder how people hire anyone.
I work a lot in the UK. And NL and DE as well. I do not like talking about salaries, how much someone makes. But fresh out of uni I was above your senior numbers and besides being overly confident I did not do much more. My senior friends in the UK and NL and DE also make far more than you suggest. I think you are right that you need to be confident; without that you get abused. And I guess that is when labels like introvert get tossed around; if you do not ask or if you think you are not worth it...
Edit; Forgot to add the context; gross salaries per yet. In EU talking about net salaries make no sense at all so I assumed that.
I started a company (actually several companies by now) because I knew that my life literally depended on it. I had a job out of school at a big firm and I absolutely hated it. The idea of getting up at 6:30 am every morning, wasting precious time sitting in rush hour traffic, dealing with people at an office I don't necessarily want to see, much less work with on a daily basis, sitting in a cubicle working on something that just helps get someone else rich, was just terrifying to me. I have a few people in my extended family who have committed suicide and I knew that if I continued on this path I would definitely, 100% be one of those people. I know others can, and some may even enjoy it, but I simply cannot enjoy a life like that. So I started a company and fought like I was going to war to save my own life, and it worked. I worked really hard for about 5 years and now I have enough money that I never have to worry about getting stuck in one of those dead end jobs I feared at the start of my career. So, if you're thinking of starting a company, be ready to go up against some competitors (depending on industry) who will fight you to the death - if corporate life doesn't bother you so much, perhaps you should stay there.
opposite question as the other poster: what do you do if you have a great idea (naturally everyone thinks their own ideas are great) but don't have the entrepreneurial spirit ? I've been working on a project for a couple years, still have about 25% of the work to go for it to be MVP, but I'd really like to find a business partner/investor. I'm afraid to reach out though because I dont know how to protect myself from being screwed.
I love the section about the first idea is probably not going to be the last idea. I've seen startups come in with a very set idea of how the product was going to work, only to find that the way it was going to work wasn't really what customers were looking for.
Rather than defining how a product should work, startups should define their mission and adapt their product to both accomplish their mission and meet the needs/demands of the customer.
I've been involved in a few startups and this is what I've learned:
1. Iteration is key and should be welcomed.
2. Validation, as noted, is incredibly important.
3. Continuing to validate iterations ultimately leads to a successful company.
Absolutely! Couldn't agree more with this. Most often thing I see is teams holding onto a solution to a problem that 1) no-one has, or 2) a few people have but no-one cares about. Sometimes they also over engineer the early iterations to a level of complexity that even prospective users won't "get it". Starting small, doing the research & interview legwork to define the problem, then design the smallest version of one possible product solution to it, iterate, review continuously...
Gotta tell you, that "giving a shit" scale isn't true in my case. I work for an agency and we give much more of a shit about our client than the client's internal devs do... about the code, about the business, you name it...
This. I've seen agencies that look like they're 11s on the give-a-shit scale. Usually it's interactive creative design agencies that are both small enough and young enough to really care about their reputation.
That said, using an agency to build your startup probably isn't the best idea for so many reasons.
How to start a startup without ruining your life
1. Never accumulate personal debt in the process of starting up
2. Sleep, Exercise and eat well
3. Never forget 1 and 2
The rest are beyond your control by a large degree. Try your level best. And Yea, occasionally read through such advices.
After having failed at my first startup, and having partially succeeded in second, I couldn't agree more on those two points.
The debt accrued on my first startup still haunts me. And I really wish, I slept more and worked out more during the period. It is really a simple advice, to sleep and to work out. But when you are a sinking ship, you could hardly follow it.
How do you start a startup if you're at least a few years from getting out of existing debt? Is it even remotely feasible? I've been having urges to give it a try but I'd be starting in the hole, which seems like a really bad idea.
I try to work on things in my off time but it's difficult finding the time after working all day.
> 80% won't give you critical feedback, because humans like to avoid conflict and are polite
Haha. I wish!
"Your app sucks".
"Why is this not free?"
"Can I do X? Why can't I do X?"
"You changed Y and I hate it"
80% won't give you feedback, period. Because they've another 10 tabs open and you've haven't intrigued them enough to warrant anymore of their precious time and attention.
This was aimed at the idea validation stage. You shouldn't have built anything at this point as you're too busy talking to customers face-to-face, trying to hone the idea down.
I'd love for someone to write about howto meet people who you'd want to join up with you as a cofounder. I know I wouldn't be able to do any of my high in the sky plans by myself but I don't know many people who'd be up to taking the plundge.
It may not appeal but I took up ultramarathons a couple of years ago. On the multi-day ones (e.g. Marathon des Sables) you meet some terrific people with the kind of insanely driven mentality that chewing glass and staring into the abyss demands. They've also typically got a bit of personal runway - so can bare financial risk of a startup.
Yeah, Rik's totally right. As a technical person you control the proverbial board. Go out, meet (great, non-crazy) people...talk about your ideas. Have in mind the type or skill set of the co-founder you want though, early stage everyone needs to bring hard skills, IMHO.
Looking at your profile, as a technical person you'll be a lot more in-demand than someone non-technical. Go to meetups and talk about your ideas online, people will naturally come out of the woodwork the more you talk about your high-in-the-sky plans.
Yep, totally agree. A lot of founders don't do this as they're too attached to the idea or too worried about criticism. It's a tough learning process to get over the negative feedback.
"It’s always easier to work with your friends rather than searching for someone to be your co-founder. You trust them and you have faith in their abilities. However, startups will strain even the most solid of relationships."
Not only that, they could ruin your relationship with your friends forever. Friends are friends, business partners are business partners. Been there, done that.
Not that many comments. Here is what I would like to say, I love how you structured SuperHi as a both online course and 1-1 mentorship. That way people get best of both worlds. To me that says you care about what you are doing and your customers. This is important and will enable this business to be viable long term.
Thank you! Yeh, we've been consistently asking customers what works for them over the two or so years we've been running. We found that a lot of people get stuck very quickly with the free online courses that are out there, and they wanted to create sites from scratch rather than learning about HTML, CSS and Javascript – it's a very slight difference, practical vs theory.
We've found that the 1:1 help informs the course material too - if we get the same request topics in the 1:1 help, it's obvious we're missing something from the course material, so we add it in.
Almost all such articles miss the most crucial self assessment piece- if you are married/in a relationship make sure you and your partner have a good understanding of the potential stress that you are about to take on. It can make all the difference in making shitty days tolerable or even more terrible.
Not really. Failing is bad. It's better to not try at all if you're going to fail, unless you can learn something that makes you succeed in the future. Otherwise, trying will mean missed opportunity costs.
Such an amazing response to this thread! Thanks everyone. Rik (the author) made the original article into an ebook as a result of all this great conversation. It's on Product Hunt books also now, should you wish to check it out: https://www.producthunt.com/posts/how-to-start-a-startup-wit... :)
Great article, thank you! As a developer I often dream about having a startup. I don't want anything large or fancy but a nice little SaaS app that can generate some income. I'm absolutely terrible at marketing and I can never seem to come up with a good idea / product. Do you have any suggestions as to where I can get inspiration for products or find markets that need something?
The title of the piece is slightly misleading. It's really more like: Roundup of startup advice based on one person's journey. There's decent advice, but it's not really structured to support the title, which would seem to require a few counterexamples of ruin.
I can't reiterate the incentive vs caring point he makes enough. Agencies exist to satisfy a requirement, collect a check, and run. Engage them warily for dev/design.
[+] [-] benologist|9 years ago|reply
After about 3 years trying and failing to make the good project earn a lot more money I wanted to do an exciting new startup. Having almost hit 6 digits that third year meant I couldn't just ignore the good project and let it atrophy but I didn't want to pursue an exciting new startup being anchored to the good project all the time. I decided to sell it.
With that decision all of the remaining work became about transitioning from 'code on my computer' to 'coherent and pleasant part time job for someone else to do well'. I replaced bash scripts and w/e other random crap with a web interface and gutted my code and dependencies so that the person they find on craigslist to add something in 2 years won't drown.
Now I'm completely free to work on my new startup and make something like a good salary while I do, someone else takes care of the nice business in 5 hours a week. Probably half of HN could pull that off with a side project or two. This is where patio11 and someone from feinternational.com described the difference between the good project and the nice business -
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11347541
[+] [-] Blackstone4|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Swizec|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] the-dude|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aldarn|9 years ago|reply
- A junior developer at £20k is probably going to do you more harm than good
- £30 - £40k for a junior developer is more reasonable, where £30k would be fresh from red-brick uni (if lucky) or a couple years industry experience
- A senior developer asking less than £50k is probably not super confident (could be various reasons e.g. failing to get other jobs, not super experienced) or experienced with startups
- Good senior developers experienced with startups are more likely to be on a minimum of £60k and anywhere up to £80/90k
Also it's a little more nuanced than this. A first hire developer might (perhaps reasonably) expect to be a CTO or Tech Lead assuming further hires - this is one of the reasons some developers consider working in startups as it's a potential fast track to gain management-like experience. If you're hiring a junior developer, this probably isn't the best idea and it should be made clear to them this isn't the case. In hiring a senior developer it should at the very least be discussed - the outcome of this may potentially be an expectation of higher salary (either immediately or upon company growth). It's not unheard of for small startups (seed / series A) to pay £100k+ for CTOs.
[+] [-] string|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikekchar|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tluyben2|9 years ago|reply
Edit; Forgot to add the context; gross salaries per yet. In EU talking about net salaries make no sense at all so I assumed that.
[+] [-] riklomas|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] simmons5552|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shostack|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] godzillabrennus|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] riklomas|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] euyyn|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] digler999|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 40acres|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jv22222|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pratap103|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sanderson1|9 years ago|reply
Rather than defining how a product should work, startups should define their mission and adapt their product to both accomplish their mission and meet the needs/demands of the customer.
I've been involved in a few startups and this is what I've learned:
1. Iteration is key and should be welcomed. 2. Validation, as noted, is incredibly important. 3. Continuing to validate iterations ultimately leads to a successful company.
[+] [-] Adamola|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] isomorph|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rl3|9 years ago|reply
That said, using an agency to build your startup probably isn't the best idea for so many reasons.
[+] [-] rkunnamp|9 years ago|reply
The rest are beyond your control by a large degree. Try your level best. And Yea, occasionally read through such advices.
[+] [-] ioda|9 years ago|reply
The debt accrued on my first startup still haunts me. And I really wish, I slept more and worked out more during the period. It is really a simple advice, to sleep and to work out. But when you are a sinking ship, you could hardly follow it.
[+] [-] cableshaft|9 years ago|reply
I try to work on things in my off time but it's difficult finding the time after working all day.
[+] [-] yokisan|9 years ago|reply
Haha. I wish!
"Your app sucks".
"Why is this not free?"
"Can I do X? Why can't I do X?"
"You changed Y and I hate it"
80% won't give you feedback, period. Because they've another 10 tabs open and you've haven't intrigued them enough to warrant anymore of their precious time and attention.
[+] [-] riklomas|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gravypod|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anotherturn|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Adamola|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] riklomas|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cr0sh|9 years ago|reply
An internet "dating site" for startup co-founders to meet on (you could have the whole shebang - ratings, chat, profiles).
Maybe something like LinkedIn meets Match.com, with a sprinkle of YC thrown in?
[+] [-] rebekk99|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] riklomas|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] birdpers0n|9 years ago|reply
Not only that, they could ruin your relationship with your friends forever. Friends are friends, business partners are business partners. Been there, done that.
[+] [-] desireco42|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] riklomas|9 years ago|reply
We've found that the 1:1 help informs the course material too - if we get the same request topics in the 1:1 help, it's obvious we're missing something from the course material, so we add it in.
[+] [-] gagzilla|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ankitsoni|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elwell|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Adamola|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] doozler|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vonnik|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] riklomas|9 years ago|reply
I should have linked to http://autopsy.io/ - a good place to read about why startups failed from the founders.
[+] [-] kdazzle|9 years ago|reply
> SuperHi has online courses which means we have students from California to Australia, all due to the internet.
Lol, sounds like a whole lot of fish to me, amirite?
[+] [-] DrScump|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] riklomas|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arzt|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emodendroket|9 years ago|reply