Having read the book something like five times now[0] I'm actually okay with this.
The swearing and cursing does make it a better book, but removing that doesn't remove the beauty of it. The film adaptation was okay without it (though it lost some scenes I'd have loved it to have included, and I'm only somewhat okay with Matt Damon in the lead role).
Kids with cool parents will buy them the better version, and they'll get to show it off to their friends. Now it's not about who is reading the book, but who's reading the cool version of it.
[0] I bought it as a KDP novel for $0.99, somewhere between it being a free book online and it being picked up by a mainstream publisher. Every now and then I want to re-read some small part of it, and accidentally re-read it all. One of my favourite books, honestly.
PG-13 movies are allowed two uses of the word "fuck." The Martian had Matt Damon use them fairly early on, first, when Watney yanks the piece of the antenna out of himself ("FUCK!"), and second, when he makes up his mind to survive ("Fuck you, Mars"). They allude to its use in many other places, though, such as the memorable shot from outside the Rover where you can clearly see his lips saying "What the fuck? What the fuck?" Then there was some "censored" text in the chat logs, a reference to Watney telling the botanists to "have sex with themselves," and so forth.
Wow I think we all need to step back and chill when it comes to swears. It's actually a really brilliant book in its current form, why would you change it for kids for the sake of a few minor swear words that the kids probably know better than you anyways.
I agree with you, but this is the reality of it. I'd much rather kids have a censored version of this book than not have it at all, which is the choice we actually have given how most schools are run.
And it's not like the swearing is in any way essential to the work. You're not destroying a great work of literature by replacing "fuck" with "crap." So while I agree we shouldn't be so uptight about swears, I'd say we also shouldn't be so uptight about removing them here.
It's hard playing moral arbiter. On the one hand, you want to make it accessible to as many students as possible as well as teach them the core of what you want. You could probably replace much of the cursing without changing the underlying narrative.
But I also totally understand your point. Why is every marvel movie jam packed with gratuitous violence. To the point where fighting is the entire point of the narrative. Characters will die in fantastic ways but is still equally traumatizing. But portraying love or swearing is too adult for children. Makes no sense to me.
There are two F-bombs in the opening sentences, and over 160 swear words throughout. I'm not cool with my 8 year old walking around dropping F-bombs, and I'm not sure why you think it's your place to tell me I should be...
I can't wait for my son to read this book, but in it's original form it was completely inappropriate for him. I'm glad to hear this is available now - it's going on the Kindle soon.
"profanity and obscenity entitle people who don't want unpleasant information to close their ears and eyes to you."
- Kurt Vonnegut
So long as some parents would be upset or uncomfortable it would limit the reach of a very important story. I also think that while the language lends authenticity, it's not at all necessary to the story.
Eric Idle should now write an entire Math textbook series based on the word Fuck. Really, you could just have them be comedic supplemental material to another textbook. I bet a talented teacher could use such material to really liven up a math class.
Agreed. I assume as a classroom tool, this book would be appealing to early high school (8/9 grade). By that age, a student ought to be capable of reading a swear word or two in context without being injured.
Totally agree. I have kids, and the book would certainly be inappropriate for them now. That said, the simple solution is to wait until they're old enough before exposing it to them instead of attempting to dilute the book.
The swearing adds some color to the book, but it definitely doesn't take away from the content. I'm OK with this tradeoff as long as it becomes more accessible to students.
I remember from being a kid that the etiquette I quickly figured out was that kids don't swear around adults and adults don't swear around kids. Where does this come from? Are there any anthropological studies about this?
Kids around kids can swear as much as they like, same with adults around adults, and they use exactly same swears, maybe adults with more awareness where did the swearwords came from, since they have better understanding of sex.
I swore much worse and much more as a kid than I do as an adult (I curbed my swearing around high-school). I haven't met an adult that swore as much as we did as kids.
Swearing is artificially powerful language, and kids are especially prone to abusing any shred of power they can get (because of fully justified insecurity about how much power they have). So if you allow swearing it they'd just ruin the artificial language power hierarchy for everybody.
It's good that kids will get to read this as part of their class, but America as a country needs to relax when it comes to swearing. How much damage can reading the word fuck do to someone who is 13-18 years old?
It's not so much that "America" is uptight about swearing is that the minority that is uptight about it cares very intensely, and the people that aren't also aren't nearly as upset about what needs to be done to placate that minority as the minority is if not placated, and the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
I don't think America as a country is particularly uptight about swearing. I hear swearing all the time, everywhere I go.
We have a cultural norm that adult authority figures do not swear in front of children or provide them with educational materials containing profanity.
I can see why this norm may be irksome to some people but I don't see how it is harmful.
Obviously there is no damage, but part of schooling is teaching children how to behave in our culture. Our culture believes swears are unprofessional and crass.
I certainly wouldn't have any problems with it for 13-18 years olds, but I can see why there is some push back.
Especially in an age where saying "son of bitch" could be construed as a perpetuating hostile workplace environment for women.
I've got a filthy mouth and I sort of wish I didn't.
I'd also be against cleaning up important classic works that use language that isn't really allowed anymore. That is whitewashing history.
I don't know what age the coursework around the book will be targeted at, but my son could absolutely devour the book at 8 - I held off due to the language. I will be getting him a copy of the friendly version as soon as he's done with the series he's reading now.
Well, if parents got to choose their kids' schools rather than being forced to accept what the State gives them, then this wouldn't be an issue (or, rather, it'd be an issue for each school to consider on its own).
I believe that constant swearing is inappropriate. As a matter of fact, in that book it decreased believability for me. An educated astronaut, faced with a possible extinction, would want to leave a worthy testament/diary, and not an expletive-riddled notes.
To be honest, I was actually distracted by the the swearing because it really was unnecessary writing. Like there are places where as an editor I would have told him to cut it too. --E.g., when he finds out what re-runs his crew member has and immediately follows the sentence with some cursing. It just would have been better with a lot of other literary devices.
Although some books will lose something if you subtract the harsher language, this is not one of them.
It's not necessary in any real sense, but a foul-mouthed astronaut who doesn't swear isn't a foul-mouthed astronaut. It's a trait that works well with the character's irreverent attitude.
I don't remember the language from when I read the book, so it must not have bothered me. I think given the situation the main character was put into, cursing makes a lot of sense. He's basically talking to himself day after day and clues the reader into his cowboy (in addition to science geek) like attitude. It also served as a bit of comedic relief for the character and reader.
Something was off about the swearing for me as well. Kept distracting me while reading the book. I’m perfectly OK with Bruce Willis foul mouthing his bloody way through a skyscraper. But for me this astronaut’s fucks are unimaginative, emotionally dull and repeating ad nauseam. I am reminded of Tourette syndrome.
It's simple. The teacher/school would have to get permission from parents. Many parents would refuse to give permission. This would force the teacher/school to provide alternative material. That becomes a pain when part of the class is reading one thing and part is reading a different thing. Its just easier to avoid the situation all together by either "sanitizing" the book or using a different book.
By the way, thanks for the link. I just ordered a classroom version of the book for my kids to read (yes, I would be one of those parents who wouldn't give permission for their kids to read the original version.)
Picking battles and all that. I don't think it's worth keeping this book out of the hands of more kids for the sake of a few swear words. It's not exactly Catcher in the Rye.
Yeah this wouldn't be allowed in UK schools because of the swearing. "Crap" would be allowed, and "shit" might be in the context of a piece of literature being reviewed in an English class, but in a science class there's no need for it and it is considered inappropriate for children. For context, saying 'the f-word' or equivalent in earshot of a teacher would usually result in punishment.
south American countries have 14yr kids read books on a band of criminal, murderous, rapists orphans living in the outskirts of the city.
But, most countries there are suffering State coups recently and some even removed science (geography, chemistry, sociology) to add State doctrine classes (where kids 6 and up are educated on their duties but never on their rights as citizens)
This makes me think of Peter Watts' experiences regarding making one of his books 'classroom-friendly' [1]. Briefly, a high-school teacher wanted to use his Blindsight in her English class, and got his reluctant permission to produce a censored version. It never got off the ground, because there was parental protest at teaching from a book that at one point had profanity in it.
Yeah. Let's water down the shit out of this. It's a fantastic book even without the profanity and if this is required to get it into the classroom, well, then so be it. The original language makes it even more attractive to some younger readers though. "I'm pretty much fucked." as the very first sentence? Cool, I'll keep on reading.
Try going to any social media outlets like Instagram or Twitter or Snapchat and suddenly swear words like "fuck" and "crap" will seem normal. These kids have access to social media these days. Innocence was long gone with the advent of open social media. Good luck modern parents.
Honestly, all the swearing is pretty good training for future jobs. In my experience, engineers swear almost as much as financial analysts and sailors. "It behaves fucky" is probably our most used technical term.
My son read it in 3rd grade, after I helped him read the first chapter. It was the first adult book he'd ever read. He was so excited to then be able to see the movie.
I'm wildly supportive of the PG version of the book. There are a lot of prudish parents out there, and public schools naturally have to be inclined toward folks who complain the most.
It would be tragic to allow a few bad words to keep such an inspiring book from millions of children who wouldn't see it otherwise.
If I buy The Martian in a year will I get the normal version of the safe for our precious children version? If I buy it on Kindle will it magically update in the future to protect my brain from the badness?
Or will there be an adult version and a child version?
IDK, I find this kind of thing really stupid and pointless[1], but then again I don't have kids so I doubt my opinion matters on the subject to those that do.
[1] Kids swear like trains when they're 10, or these days probably younger.
All the people here saying "I don't get what the big deal with the swear words is" are far more stupid than the teachers who went and got the changes made so they could actually use the damn book in their classrooms.
When millions of people have some harmless feeling you think is irrational, the thing to do is work around it, not whine about it on Hacker News.
No, the teachers are idiots who would censor literature "for the greater good".
The people who have a problem with a kid (I'm guessing this would be 8th grade plus?, so teenagers) reading a few swear words in a book need to get over it.
Yes we should cover statues and paintings , and rewrite books so that some people don't be offended. Yes it is really a good plan, submit to the beliefs of some people and change reality so that it's nicer to them.
So somebody just locked in a made-for-school monopoly on the 'safe' text, and schools will now likely pay a premium. All to protect middle/high schools students from swear words they can hear in the halls everyday.
[+] [-] mabbo|9 years ago|reply
The swearing and cursing does make it a better book, but removing that doesn't remove the beauty of it. The film adaptation was okay without it (though it lost some scenes I'd have loved it to have included, and I'm only somewhat okay with Matt Damon in the lead role).
Kids with cool parents will buy them the better version, and they'll get to show it off to their friends. Now it's not about who is reading the book, but who's reading the cool version of it.
[0] I bought it as a KDP novel for $0.99, somewhere between it being a free book online and it being picked up by a mainstream publisher. Every now and then I want to re-read some small part of it, and accidentally re-read it all. One of my favourite books, honestly.
[+] [-] erbo|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] libeclipse|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikeash|9 years ago|reply
And it's not like the swearing is in any way essential to the work. You're not destroying a great work of literature by replacing "fuck" with "crap." So while I agree we shouldn't be so uptight about swears, I'd say we also shouldn't be so uptight about removing them here.
[+] [-] frostirosti|9 years ago|reply
But I also totally understand your point. Why is every marvel movie jam packed with gratuitous violence. To the point where fighting is the entire point of the narrative. Characters will die in fantastic ways but is still equally traumatizing. But portraying love or swearing is too adult for children. Makes no sense to me.
[+] [-] djrogers|9 years ago|reply
There are two F-bombs in the opening sentences, and over 160 swear words throughout. I'm not cool with my 8 year old walking around dropping F-bombs, and I'm not sure why you think it's your place to tell me I should be...
I can't wait for my son to read this book, but in it's original form it was completely inappropriate for him. I'm glad to hear this is available now - it's going on the Kindle soon.
[+] [-] tootie|9 years ago|reply
- Kurt Vonnegut
So long as some parents would be upset or uncomfortable it would limit the reach of a very important story. I also think that while the language lends authenticity, it's not at all necessary to the story.
[+] [-] stcredzero|9 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jixxYx9fklM
(For those who don't know, writing songs based on Fuck has kind of become one of Eric Idle's things.)
[+] [-] alistairSH|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jbrantly|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hrayr|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scotty79|9 years ago|reply
I remember from being a kid that the etiquette I quickly figured out was that kids don't swear around adults and adults don't swear around kids. Where does this come from? Are there any anthropological studies about this?
Kids around kids can swear as much as they like, same with adults around adults, and they use exactly same swears, maybe adults with more awareness where did the swearwords came from, since they have better understanding of sex.
I swore much worse and much more as a kid than I do as an adult (I curbed my swearing around high-school). I haven't met an adult that swore as much as we did as kids.
[+] [-] Uhhrrr|9 years ago|reply
Devil's advocate: maybe they should!
[+] [-] PerryCox|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dragonwriter|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nsxwolf|9 years ago|reply
We have a cultural norm that adult authority figures do not swear in front of children or provide them with educational materials containing profanity.
I can see why this norm may be irksome to some people but I don't see how it is harmful.
[+] [-] rhino369|9 years ago|reply
I certainly wouldn't have any problems with it for 13-18 years olds, but I can see why there is some push back.
Especially in an age where saying "son of bitch" could be construed as a perpetuating hostile workplace environment for women.
I've got a filthy mouth and I sort of wish I didn't.
I'd also be against cleaning up important classic works that use language that isn't really allowed anymore. That is whitewashing history.
[+] [-] djrogers|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zeveb|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mudil|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 27182818284|9 years ago|reply
Although some books will lose something if you subtract the harsher language, this is not one of them.
[+] [-] bendykstra|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matwood|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pavel_lishin|9 years ago|reply
> It just would have been better with a lot of other literary devices.
about a lot of parts of any given book.
[+] [-] nier|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] irrational|9 years ago|reply
By the way, thanks for the link. I just ordered a classroom version of the book for my kids to read (yes, I would be one of those parents who wouldn't give permission for their kids to read the original version.)
[+] [-] nkrisc|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nickhalfasleep|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] psychometry|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danpalmer|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mambodog|9 years ago|reply
As an example, here is some colourful language in a novel was a pretty standard text for English Literature classes in my state: https://books.google.com/books?id=BRwwAAAAQBAJ&q=fuck#v=snip...
[+] [-] gcb0|9 years ago|reply
But, most countries there are suffering State coups recently and some even removed science (geography, chemistry, sociology) to add State doctrine classes (where kids 6 and up are educated on their duties but never on their rights as citizens)
[+] [-] adtac|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EdwardCoffin|9 years ago|reply
[1] http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6879
[+] [-] tyingq|9 years ago|reply
Somewhat interesting, all 3 started in Utah.
https://www.vidangel.com/news/mission/
https://try.clearplay.com/what-is-clearplay/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CleanFlicks
[+] [-] ubiyubix|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CodeSheikh|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] headcanon|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dankohn1|9 years ago|reply
I'm wildly supportive of the PG version of the book. There are a lot of prudish parents out there, and public schools naturally have to be inclined toward folks who complain the most.
It would be tragic to allow a few bad words to keep such an inspiring book from millions of children who wouldn't see it otherwise.
[+] [-] SCdF|9 years ago|reply
Or will there be an adult version and a child version?
IDK, I find this kind of thing really stupid and pointless[1], but then again I don't have kids so I doubt my opinion matters on the subject to those that do.
[1] Kids swear like trains when they're 10, or these days probably younger.
[+] [-] dcre|9 years ago|reply
When millions of people have some harmless feeling you think is irrational, the thing to do is work around it, not whine about it on Hacker News.
[+] [-] aanm1988|9 years ago|reply
The people who have a problem with a kid (I'm guessing this would be 8th grade plus?, so teenagers) reading a few swear words in a book need to get over it.
[+] [-] ghostDancer|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dv_dt|9 years ago|reply