Postman founder here HN folks. Great to see the post get featured on the homepage! Lots of discussion about what is exactly native. I have posted some replies but some other points about the choice of words:
1. Postman has 3 million users and about 1.5 million MAUs. When we tell people we have a native app, they get it. People go to our apps page, download the installer and see everything exactly as they expect things to be.
2. We have worked hard on optimizing our UI layer over the past several months including mapping of keyboard shortcuts and smoothening out performance issues.
3. We are able to provide a consistent experience for Windows, Linux and macOS users and people love that EVERYONE in the team can use the same app. That has very clear advantages when development teams are chosing tools. Postman is used by everyone who comes in touch with APIs - product managers, sales, customer support, dev evangelists and a cross-platform app allows everyone to standardize much faster.
4. Reusability in the code base through node packages is amazing to have.
5. We use React and are aiming for reusability of these components in the browser. This includes stuff like visualizations, data rendering etc. Our time to market has come down like crazy.
6. With node, not only do we get reusability across OSes but also between the app and our server-side stuff. We have a command line tool called newman that uses the same runtime (postman-runtime, open-sourced on Github) and the same runtime powers our monitoring service that runs on the cloud.
That's just some of the advantages. There is a lot of work going on in optimizing our code base. Ultimately we are validated by whether we do a good job for people who use the application. I have been building Postman over the past 5 years now and that has been the core guiding princple.
>> When we tell people we have a native app, they get it. People go to our apps page, download the installer and see everything exactly as they expect things to be.
The term "native" is used to describe apps developed for a specific operating system. By this definition, clearly Electron apps (and hence Postman) are not native apps.
Having to download an installer doesn't make it native. On smartphones, all apps are installed in the same way. Yet, some are native and others use WebViews.
I am making no comment on Postman's quality (in fact I am a customer). However, advertising Postman as native seems a bit disconcerting to me.
I used PostMan on the Mac for a couple of projects and now I'm thinking thrice before even starting the app.
The UI makes no sense to me, but I would need an UX study to find out what's up exactly.
I just know
. that I keep searching for buttons
. that somehow Postman never remembers my state. I have these "tabs" open, close them all, close the app, and when coming back there are tabs open again. When I want to close them it asks me about unsaved changes. (Which changes???)
. the panes can be resized in a way that you can hide their content, but have to fiddle around with the mouse to find the invisible point where you can size them up again.
. when saving a large response (1MB) from somewhere it keeps trying to sync that to the library which means that everything else is becoming really slow.
. It's really not easy to rename anything. I click on a Tab, duplicate it, now I have two Tabs with the same name (it does not even say 'duplicate' or 'copy'). I click the title to rename it, nothing happens.
. Oh and the title is displayed twice, once in the tab and once beneath it. Clicking on neither of them gives the option to rename. You have to find the invisible pencil icon first.
. I think the Tab metaphore isn't appropriate, especially the new Tab page. I would like to close everything.
. There should be a feature to auto-name requests or something. I keep being confused between the request, the description, the two titles.
I had to read a few comments on HN and Google your product to understand what it is. reading on your website told me (almost) nothing about your product. (I am more a desktop dev, very new to web).
I appreciate that you consider these all to be big advantages, but as a user they fall somewhere between "doesn't matter" and "makes the product worse". The only benefit to your users is the faster time to market, and that's debatable.
As a user, I want an application that performs well (which Electron apps typically don't, my main issue with Atom and Slack), and I want an app that fits in well with my platform, which an app designed to be the same on all platforms just isn't good at.
The biggest sore-point for me is that I still can't copy-as-curl-request a POST request from Chrome debugger tools (or other browser) and import it into postman. Relevant issue:
This appears to be an electron program. Is that native? I thought it was a specialized browser just for the program. I thought native was more akin to the wikipedia definition:
Maybe not Postman but at least you don't need an account: https://rest.secapps.com/ - https://httpview.secapps.com/ - #disclosure I am the author and we are making some substantial changes to make our tools available without registration
With a name like "Postman", one might expect this has something to do with mail, or messaging. The blog post gives no clue as to what it's for. It's apparently a test tool for testing HTTP-based APIs. [1] (HTTP "POST", get it?)
Not to be confused with Postman Corporation, which is a "computer repair shop" near CIA headquarters.
My 2 cents. Try and add a notification within your Chrome App that there's a native version of your app as well. 'Cuz since now, although I've been using your app for more than a year now, I didn't know about the native version of the app.
PS: Paying customer :)
I've been on the native app for a while and was very glad to switch. The pseudo-standalone Chrome app had some very weird and obnoxious behavior when navigating between applications and windows on MacOS.
My guess is they are doubling down on Progressive Web Apps.
Many users don't understand the "browser is an app store" model.
Making installing an "App" a seamless transition for websites you constantly use, seems like a UX improvement, if Progressive can deliver on it's vision.
Big fan of Postman for quickly iterating on API's, microservice integration tests, and one off requests. However, my team keeps the collections in git and they are very difficult to diff. This almost always require a detailed commit (doesnt usually happen) or me asking the dev what they changed. Any suggestions on how to improve comparing two collections?
When did we start calling Electron Apps, Native Apps? Is it now a marketing ploy to call your App native when it's not?
If your App renders in a WebView then by definition it's not native and shouldn't be labelled as such so it doesn't devalue Apps that use Native OS's UI components and idioms that are truly Native. If it has a mix of native and WebView controls then it's at best a Hybrid App.
I am not sure why something would be inherently superior if it is using pre-built OS components. Any software can have memory leaks, buggy behavior, weird input issues etc. I'd rather look at the user experience and qualify something as better/worse after using it. Postman had issues in the beginning when we started porting things over but these were quickly solved and in fact gave us much more power over the experience.
In the case of this specific post, they seem to be using "native" to mean "has features that require access to native OS APIs, and which cannot exist purely within the HTML5 abstract machine."
There's probably a better term for this. "Native-enabled", perhaps? "Unsandboxed"?
Electron apps are more native than Chrome apps. Electron apps integrate much better with macOS than do Chrome apps:
- With a Chrome app, I found that pressing Cmd-Q quits Chrome, not just the Chrome app.
- Electron apps have more useful menus than Chrome apps.
- Electron apps like Simplenote usually work offline, while some of the Chrome apps I've used don't.
... and so on.
I agree with you that it's still not 100% accurate to call them native apps, but trying to communicate shades of grey in a blog post risks confusing readers, even technical ones, who want to do whatever Postman does, not understand the finer points of Electron vs Chrome vs Cocoa apps.
I'll take clear communication over communication that's confusing because it's accurate in ways I don't care about.
If an app can be installed the same way a "native" app does, it is a native app. Users do not care about the technology behind the scene and what they are called.
I absolutely love the Postman app, well done and thank you!
My biggest frustration with native apps are things like the Google login. Without it being in a browser, I have no way to verify that I'm looking at a legitimate login, or a fake one, right through to 2 factor authentication.
[+] [-] a85|9 years ago|reply
1. Postman has 3 million users and about 1.5 million MAUs. When we tell people we have a native app, they get it. People go to our apps page, download the installer and see everything exactly as they expect things to be.
2. We have worked hard on optimizing our UI layer over the past several months including mapping of keyboard shortcuts and smoothening out performance issues.
3. We are able to provide a consistent experience for Windows, Linux and macOS users and people love that EVERYONE in the team can use the same app. That has very clear advantages when development teams are chosing tools. Postman is used by everyone who comes in touch with APIs - product managers, sales, customer support, dev evangelists and a cross-platform app allows everyone to standardize much faster.
4. Reusability in the code base through node packages is amazing to have.
5. We use React and are aiming for reusability of these components in the browser. This includes stuff like visualizations, data rendering etc. Our time to market has come down like crazy.
6. With node, not only do we get reusability across OSes but also between the app and our server-side stuff. We have a command line tool called newman that uses the same runtime (postman-runtime, open-sourced on Github) and the same runtime powers our monitoring service that runs on the cloud.
That's just some of the advantages. There is a lot of work going on in optimizing our code base. Ultimately we are validated by whether we do a good job for people who use the application. I have been building Postman over the past 5 years now and that has been the core guiding princple.
[+] [-] psyklic|9 years ago|reply
The term "native" is used to describe apps developed for a specific operating system. By this definition, clearly Electron apps (and hence Postman) are not native apps.
Having to download an installer doesn't make it native. On smartphones, all apps are installed in the same way. Yet, some are native and others use WebViews.
I am making no comment on Postman's quality (in fact I am a customer). However, advertising Postman as native seems a bit disconcerting to me.
[+] [-] fn1|9 years ago|reply
The UI makes no sense to me, but I would need an UX study to find out what's up exactly.
I just know
. that I keep searching for buttons
. that somehow Postman never remembers my state. I have these "tabs" open, close them all, close the app, and when coming back there are tabs open again. When I want to close them it asks me about unsaved changes. (Which changes???)
. the panes can be resized in a way that you can hide their content, but have to fiddle around with the mouse to find the invisible point where you can size them up again.
. when saving a large response (1MB) from somewhere it keeps trying to sync that to the library which means that everything else is becoming really slow.
. It's really not easy to rename anything. I click on a Tab, duplicate it, now I have two Tabs with the same name (it does not even say 'duplicate' or 'copy'). I click the title to rename it, nothing happens.
. Oh and the title is displayed twice, once in the tab and once beneath it. Clicking on neither of them gives the option to rename. You have to find the invisible pencil icon first.
. I think the Tab metaphore isn't appropriate, especially the new Tab page. I would like to close everything.
. There should be a feature to auto-name requests or something. I keep being confused between the request, the description, the two titles.
. Don't get me started on managing environments.
[+] [-] kyberias|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] viraptor|9 years ago|reply
Are people here not... people? You seem to describe a desktop app. Bring able to install it has nothing to do with being native or not.
[+] [-] kelvin0|9 years ago|reply
From https://www.getpostman.com/
"A powerful GUI platform to make your API development faster & easier, from building API requests through testing, documentation and sharing"
Then searching, I found this:
https://seesparkbox.com/foundry/api_testing_with_postman
"...for interacting with HTTP APIs. It presents you with a friendly GUI for constructing requests and reading responses"
It's a bit sad I (an experienced dev) need to google outside your site to find out what your product does. Hope this helps.
[+] [-] danpalmer|9 years ago|reply
As a user, I want an application that performs well (which Electron apps typically don't, my main issue with Atom and Slack), and I want an app that fits in well with my platform, which an app designed to be the same on all platforms just isn't good at.
[+] [-] aleem|9 years ago|reply
The biggest sore-point for me is that I still can't copy-as-curl-request a POST request from Chrome debugger tools (or other browser) and import it into postman. Relevant issue:
https://github.com/postmanlabs/postman-app-support/issues/26...
[+] [-] sapphire_tomb|9 years ago|reply
If not, I still can't make the switch. :(
[+] [-] fnord123|9 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_%28computing%29
[+] [-] juice_bus|9 years ago|reply
I appreciate the fact that Postman allows you to continue without registration[0]
[0]http://i.imgur.com/8XVCu5u.png
[+] [-] _pdp_|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fimdomeio|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rvanmil|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] umen|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Animats|9 years ago|reply
Not to be confused with Postman Corporation, which is a "computer repair shop" near CIA headquarters.
[1] https://www.getpostman.com/
[+] [-] blizkreeg|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] a85|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fiatjaf|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] overcast|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] draw_down|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fatal510|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ummjackson|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] a85|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] colordrops|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mythz|9 years ago|reply
> How we avoided going native, and built an App with Electron instead
[+] [-] aberatiu|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] a85|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] luhn|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tbrock|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ozten|9 years ago|reply
Many users don't understand the "browser is an app store" model.
Making installing an "App" a seamless transition for websites you constantly use, seems like a UX improvement, if Progressive can deliver on it's vision.
[+] [-] bpicolo|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] always_good|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hayden592|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hizanberg|9 years ago|reply
If your App renders in a WebView then by definition it's not native and shouldn't be labelled as such so it doesn't devalue Apps that use Native OS's UI components and idioms that are truly Native. If it has a mix of native and WebView controls then it's at best a Hybrid App.
[+] [-] a85|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] derefr|9 years ago|reply
There's probably a better term for this. "Native-enabled", perhaps? "Unsandboxed"?
[+] [-] kartickv|9 years ago|reply
- With a Chrome app, I found that pressing Cmd-Q quits Chrome, not just the Chrome app.
- Electron apps have more useful menus than Chrome apps.
- Electron apps like Simplenote usually work offline, while some of the Chrome apps I've used don't.
... and so on.
I agree with you that it's still not 100% accurate to call them native apps, but trying to communicate shades of grey in a blog post risks confusing readers, even technical ones, who want to do whatever Postman does, not understand the finer points of Electron vs Chrome vs Cocoa apps.
I'll take clear communication over communication that's confusing because it's accurate in ways I don't care about.
[+] [-] partycoder|9 years ago|reply
Personally I prefer using Burp rather than Postman.
[+] [-] kangoo1707|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] martin-adams|9 years ago|reply
My biggest frustration with native apps are things like the Google login. Without it being in a browser, I have no way to verify that I'm looking at a legitimate login, or a fake one, right through to 2 factor authentication.
[+] [-] neves|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tempodox|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] spookyuser|9 years ago|reply
Since the author is in the comments just wanted to ask one thing. Is this [1] supposed to be misaligned?
[1]https://i.imgur.com/aw8ybBz.png
[+] [-] chrisan|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kyberias|9 years ago|reply
UPDATE: I stand corrected. One can download without signing up. Sorry, I guess I'll try this after all :)