I went through the entire comment thread and feel like you guys are missing a lot of the H1B benefits by focusing just on tech and the effect of the Indian consultancies.
Most PhDs, specially in STEM, math, stats, econ, etc. are not American. And almost all of them end up with a H1B visa at some point if they remain in the US.
It might be lottery based if you go to work at any firm, or quota-free if it is in academia/nonprofits/govt, but it's still through H1B.
Now, what happens if you kill the H1B?
1) Applications from qualified foreigners to US PhDs drop a lot, because they know they won't be able to find a US-based job.
2) Every firm that does R&D, from Boeing to Amazon, will lose out on a large pool of very skilled workers, that are very hard to replace (how easy is it to replace a CS PhD working on LIDARs for self driving cars?)
All in all, I don't think critics understand this side of the value of the H1B to the US. Every year, you guys take some of the best engineers and researchers across the world, and move them to very useful roles in the US economy.
Disclaimer: I'm currently in an H1B, and would like to think my work contributes to the US. So reading all this makes me a bit sad (and unwelcome).
Thing is, nobody wants that effect. We want the PhDs. What we do not want it companies that bring in cheap barely-qualified labour for cost-cutting. This hurts the people brought in (they are stuck in bad jobs with bad pay and no way out). This hurts the local workers who cost too much compared to this effectively-slave-labour.
The hard part changing the rules such that PhDs and other productive uses of H1B do not suffer, but the companies exploiting the rules for slave labour do.
I assure you nobody wants to make you feel unwelcome. In fact we are happy to have you here.
Companies all start paying the premium for these most-sought-after and most-specialized technologists, as they should, which then causes more native-born people to pursue these jobs, knowing they won't be arbitrarily undercut by the lottery, and reaping the benefits of a top-dollar US-based education. To me, it's a national investment argument. Does a nation NOT want perfectly capable native citizens to get these lucrative types of jobs, and US-based academic institutions to get the tuition to educate them? No, it wouldn't happen overnight, but we don't have to cut it off all at once, either. The market can, and would, adjust.
My problem is that I see a lot of H1B's doing clerical jobs that don't require anything more than a 12th-grade education. Some even have MS degrees, but they're doing things that, at their most-technical, would take a trade school programming intern to do. I also know several under-employed people, who don't have college degrees, but who would be GREAT at those jobs, but can't get them because of the H1B system. None of this makes sense to me. You think only Ph.D.'s can deal with LIDAR systems? Fine. But dozens of H1B's working around me are doing their jobs without the need for even an Asscociates degree's worth of education. It seems like blatant abuse to get overqualified people on the cheap who can't leave.
> (how easy is it to replace a CS PhD working on LIDARs for self driving cars?)
I have no problem with specializations but how many are in the US doing full stack web or general application development. It seems to me the problem is not surrounding engineers who specialize in a minority field like LIDAR. The problem is when you have a team of 15 engineers building a web application platform and 13 are H1Bs.
Also, don't take this the wrong way because I welcome you and any other H1B with open arms. I do however, personally feel there are a more companies taking advantage of the situation than not.
Curious what you or any other H1B employee feels about this point of view?
I'm on an H1B too and I don't share your reading of the thread or even the executive order for that matter. I think there is a major hole with the current system. That Infosys and TCS can get away with stuffing applications and snatching so many visas clearly indicates it is an inefficient system. Hopefully, a better system balances academia, startups, entrepreneurs and corporations well. In addition, almost all of H1B is going to IT today. It should be possible for other industries to absorb talent too.
I don't know of any serious active effort to kill the H1B. I think that would be a disaster for the tech industry as large companies like the ones you mentioned rely on foreign talent.
The only effort I'm aware of is to raise the minimum salary to qualify for an H1B. Right now, the minimum is $60k, which, in the US, is very low for a legitimate programming job. I'm certain that H1B workers at Boeing or Amazon are getting paid more than the minimum right now. However, there do exist shops out there who exploit H1B visas for cheap labor; I've experienced them firsthand. They aren't as uncommon as you might think.
There is talk of raising the minimum to something like $120k. Surely, a PhD trained researcher at Boeing or Amazon is worth at least that. They are probably already getting paid the prevailing wage for their labor, which is a legal requirement of an H1B. In these cases, raising the minimum will not affect them at all.
Recall that the original purpose of the H1B was to fill a demand for high tech, specialist roles. Is there any high tech, specialist role that is only worth $60k these days? I don't think so.
H1B will not be killed. It will be changed. The loophole will be fixed so that Indian outsourcing body shops will not be able to abuse the system. Currently, the vast majority of the H1B visas are hoarded by Indian outsourcing companies such as Tata Consultancy Services, Infosys, Wipro etc. The real highly skilled workers such as US-educated PhD graduates cannot even get one at all. The new system hopefully will keep US-educated graduates and prevent those Indian consulting body shops.
The essential problem, as I see it, is that the H-1B is being explicitly used to depress wages for US citizens in the vast majority of cases.
The solution (which we'll never see) is just to de-couple the H1-B from a particular employer. Go on the open market, get a job at market rates, but don't play the indentured servitude game they're forcing you into now. That's all.
I don't think that anyone is wanting people working on self driving cars to not get a visa. I think the bigger question is if H1Bs are being abused to get cheaper labor for not well skilled positions. Raising the minimum wage for H1B positions is a pretty good way to filter that out.
That's hardly the discussion here... The current administration isn't trying to remove the H1B, but to prevent low-skilled workers from getting the H1B so that these higher degree graduates looking for work can secure a job in the US.
Indian outsourcing firms are notoriously spamming the H1B with low-salary petitions completely offsetting the chances of these post-grads looking for work. What you end up getting is doctors and engineers not being able to work in the US and you have some low level programmer that can't even do their work well without you babysitting through the work they are supposed to be qualified to do.
... on the flipside though you shouldn't be competing for H1Bs with bodyshops which hopefully will be the case once the dust settles, so in the long run (hopefully) the changes that are being proposed will be beneficial to you.
So the arguments for H1B break down to brain-drain and bringing in talent. Here are some opinions bound to be unpopular on HN.
Brain-drain is a myth. I'm taking an x64 assembler course at an accredited institution right now; the 2 Indian foreign transfer students were worse than the 1 kid in class that literally plays WOW during lecture. They didn't pay attention, they didn't work, they tried to cheat their way through, and eventually dropped. Literally, I have teachers who randomize and change their assignments to catch people like them, and while I'm not going to hang the entire institutions cheating problems on those 2 kids, I will be willing to bet dollars to donuts most of the kids we are getting are rich kids with similar problems.
When I, as an American who's family goes back to before the war for independence, hear of "Rich Foreigners Kids" I think either Russian Mob or some corrupt Russian businessmen, or an Afghani Opium farmer, or some Indian Kshatriya. Call me jerk all you want, but facts are facts. Poor Geniuses from India don't have the resources to come here are foreign transfer students. Recently I had an assignment from my boss to go stalk a Chinese railroad construction company who was putting down roots in the US. Turns out all the people they are hiring state-side are, surprise surprise, Chinese foreign transfer students or people disgruntled with US institutions they want to steal technology from. If poor kids make it into US educational institutions, that is how they get in. Some foreign Government's interest in something in the US. Either way, their background is diametrically opposed to what it is to be American. Being American is not about drawing a nice paycheck; it's fundamentally about fighting for your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Take a 2nd Generation Mexican down to the gun range sometime, all of a sudden they realize they aren't 2nd class citizens anymore once you explain to them if the cops take your guns and arrest you for your skin color that's a great pay day for you., They understand, intrinsically, because their home country, Mexico, is unbelievably messed up, why firearm ownership is meaningful. If everyone has an AK47, the drug gangs are incentivized to be extraordinarily polite, mass graves do not happen.
You will never, ever get the poor kids who work their way up through their education system or business magnates who persevered without a college degree coming here as transfer students; that is what H1B is for. No Business magnate from Russia is ever going to come to the US to participate in our Ideology; whatever area they are in, they own it lock stock and barrel. The poor kids have to be financed by someone; business magnate or government, pick one. Both of those expect loyalty.
That is what H1B is for. Business managers will argue that they need "IT Geniuses" and honestly, they have zero capability to tell the difference between an entry level "Genius" and a bonafide professional. H1B is not for bringing in entry level people. What it is there for, fundamentally, is when you get the 3rd Reich starting up and they begin burning the Jews, typically, educated people see that coming a-ways off. Economic calamity often leads to political instability; If you're going to get into a war, best to grab as many educated people as possible from that foreign country as you can get. Maybe they get the ideology while they are here, maybe they like it and stay. Who knows. Moving away from your family and friend requires some serious motivation.
Indians by and large do not come here through H1B because India is a horrible hitler-esque dystopia. They do not come here because they urn to be free. They come here to scam, it's an empirical fact, Plain and simple. Let me prove it. Wipro, TaTa, WNS. Whenever Americans are being outsourced, it's one of those companies doing it, it is a scam, it is dishonest, it is asset stripping people's paychecks.
We, like idiots, encourage that scamming blinded by these fantasies about foreigners thinking so highly of of our technology, money, and world power that they want to come here from their whatever shazbot-hole country they come from; it's as if everyone has been infected by the thinking of King George of England. Nowhere anywhere in Mainstream Media, do you ever see anyone quoting an immigrant these days who wants to come here to share in our Ideology. That Ideology is the reason for the economy, capital, and technology and military, and we forget that.
In Summary.
If you're here for the economic incentive, Get the F@##$!@$k out. I don't have time for your kind.
If you're here to be American and contribute, Welcome. We've got a lot of idiots here. Buy them booze and get them hammered. Do that a few times, you'll find friends willing to bury a body with you.
I also do not understand why Indian consultancies need to be demonized so much. Their practices might be a bit shady but then as the complexity of law grows the value of pushing the limits of law also goes up.
1. Indian consultancies have provided valuable labor in large quantity to US firms.
2. This has helped US firms remain competitive in the world. From ATT or Bank of America to Toyota and Sears everyone has super large outsourcing centers in India which help them keep costs low for American consumers.
3. Cheap labor with high skills coming to USA is a good thing. It makes the economy get more efficient and grows the size of pie where everyone gets employed.
4. US Tech sector has outperformed all sectors in terms of both growth and employment numbers. Most of the H1Bs goes to tech companies and guess what ? They have the lowest unemployment rate.
There are no job losses because of H1B. If H1B program is completely shut-down US economy would take a pretty bad hit and total number of jobs in USA will go down and more jobs will simply move to India.
You are misleading people here. Top CS PHD or other PHDs won't go through H1B; they are most likely going through EB1 which is more efficient. You don't need to wait years to get a green card. Also, people from countries like Australia, Canada, Germany, don't need H1B. Only people from Iran, India, and China need H1B.
The better solution, as I talked to variety people and many people suggests, is to raise the salary bar from 60k-ish to 100k-ish, and filter out the unequaled candidates.
"Given that the unemployment rate for college graduates sits at 2.5%, it is fair to say that most native workers displaced by H-1Bs land on their feet."
That's completely ignoring the fact that if you have cheaper workers, you end up being underpaid and/or doing a job you'd rather not be doing. Unemployment rate alone don't tell the whole story, and failing to acknowledge that sounds like poor/partial journalism to me
Regardless of where these jobs are going, H1-Bs are used for the cheap labor, not the best skills. This system has been abused especially by the financial services corporations.
First hand experience: If you have an open request to hire, you are required to first look to one of the few outsourcing firms we have a contract with. You cannot post the job for external until you have searched for the "best" person within their ranks. The "Best" being somebody super cheap & not qualified, but they assure us that person will learn on the job. I'd rather hire a full time College or High school graduate from the USA at a reasonable cost, train & maybe they will stay for the duration, but I know I'll get great work out of that person, better than the outsourced person.
America is being scammed by the our own American Corporations. I've seen too many people lose their jobs because of outsourcing & they didn't fall back on their feet.
I'd like to see the next Steve Jobs, Bill Gates come out of providing good paying jobs to US Citizens.
Agreed. The current system has been abused by Indian out-sourcing companies such as TCS, Infosys. The vast majority of highly skilled workers cannot get H-1B visas at all.
Article's concluding sentences: "Reducing the number of visas for TCS and its brethren would probably result in them shifting work to India. A better change would be to end the rule whereby H-1B recipients must stay with the company that sponsored them. For within their ranks may lurk the next Elon Musk or Sergey Brin."
Personally I find this line of thought (cliche?) frustrating. Not just because apparently us proles should be making our policy decisions based merely on whether we just might get to bask in some future billionaire's magnificence, but also because, isn't this a somewhat empirically testable proposition? That is, how many Musk-like or Brin-like individuals have come through TCS or Wipro or Infosys on a H-1B so far?
Suppose we lived in an America in which if a black person wanted to work in the tech industry they had to get a special license from the federal government called the H-1Black license. Nobody here on HN would then be discussing if companies were abusing the H-1Black system or whether H-1Black workers were being paid less than the going market rate.
A minimally decent person would notice that the obviously correct thing to do would be to remove the requirement that blacks get an H-1Black license before being allowed to work. The ethical intuition that leads to this conclusion, I think, is that one shouldn't be discriminated against based on one's circumstances at birth. Everybody (at least on HN) seems to agree that if an employer is willing to hire me, third parties (i.e. other people who also wanted the same job) shouldn't be allowed to prevent the employer from hiring me just because I was born the wrong race or the wrong gender. But people seem to think that if I were born on the wrong side of the border then its totally fine for third parties to demand preferential treatment.
Can someone explain the logic to me? Why is it not okay to discriminate on the basis of race or gender but okay to discriminate on the basis of citizenship/country of birth? Would it be okay if NYC started requiring people outside New York to obtain a highly scarce license to be able to work in NYC? Could whites start requiring non-whites to obtain a license?
Right, if you assume away the legitimacy of national borders and nations' right to determine admittance and membership, than any immigration restriction whatsoever looks pretty atrocious (including H1Bs).
FWIW, the same assumption would eliminate your ability to object when a foreign army wants to peacefully enter on the pretense of just wanting a better life.
And if you assume away the legitimacy of property rights, you look pretty atrocious turning away the homeless from your property.
I don't think it's hard to see why national and property borders might be not objectionable, but blanket racial job restrictions would be.
I'll take the bait..
> Why is it not okay to discriminate on the basis of race or gender but okay to discriminate on the basis of citizenship/country of birth?
Because, a country and it's city, and infrastructure have been built by money spent on by a bunch of people who paid taxes. For a another country, person to come in enjoy the infrastructure, make money and compete with the ones who paid for the infrastructure is unfair by design.
People expect their government to protect them from people of other nations in matters of physical and economic security. h1-B workers at Tata etc drive down wages.
Globally, labor isn't scarce. If there were a true global labor pool, wages in USA would be further depressed.
People have no intrinsic right to immigrate into the country of their choice (they do have a right to leave their country if another will take them, however..)
However, the US government can decide who is eligible to work in the country, just like it can decide who is eligible for legal residence, citizenship, etc.
? Needing a work visa is fairly universal thing what does it have to do with discrimination? If US citizen wants to work in EU, Canada, India or whatever other country they too need a work visa.
There's plenty of similar discrimination going on already in trades in professions. Essentially, doctors or unionized skilled workers prefer to give openings in their profession to their kin. With "discrimination" based on nationality it's the same thing, except that you're giving preferential treatment to your fellow Americans. It's not hard to see why given that, as an American, you and most/all of people you care about (family, friends) are likely Americans as well. It's just taking care of people who are important in your life.
(I'm not arguing for or against, because your question is to explain the logic to you)
I believe the logic comes down to the highest constitution you bind yourself to.
By birth we are bound to our country of birth's constitution and once we become an adult we have the ability to renounce that constitution and apply to be bound by another countries constitution.
I'm intrigued between the contrast of a sanctuary city, like Los Angeles, and various tech companies in LA hiring H1B employees.
My roommate's on an H1B but he can't just quit his tech job and work on a startup, despite having a few hundred thousand dollars in the bank and being a very successful developer.
Yet there are organizations like Define American, whose founder is an undocumented worker, encouraging people to give sanctuary to people who live here illegally. In 2015, LA allowed undocumented workers to get driver's licenses and 800,000 were issued. There's something like 2-2.5 million people living here illegally.
I have compassion for those who arrived here illegally and have families and lives. And I hope we can find some solution to fixing that problem. But it seems incredibly unfair that we make it hard for smart people to come and work in the US. If you can qualify initially for an H1B visa, I feel like you should be granted a green card with a path to citizenship. I
For those in the thread who struggled for H1B's chance of winning, I'd recommend considering an O1 visa - I think the requirement is slightly lower to apply than previous years, and O1 doesn't have a lottery process.
I've stayed in the US as a collage student, then graduate student from a top university then starting my company for a total of 9 years. I lost the H1B lottery twice and have been on F1 then F1-OPT, then F1-OPT-STEM_EXT in the first 8 years. I recently successfully converted into an O1 this year, therefore finally bypassing the H1B lottery. I consider the O1 visa a life saver but not everyone is that lucky to be able to apply. Now the thing is, my O1 visa is a single-entry visa, meaning I have to stay in US for 3 years until it expires and I can't leave the country otherwise I can never come back to this country again.
Edit: Obviously someone found out that O1 is single entry for Chinese nationals, and it might not be the case for most other nationals.
Is "free" trade possible without "free" labor mobility? Currently, 11 of the top 15 tech companies in India are American. For most of the multinational US companies, India (not EU, not China) is the biggest consumer (after US) or growth region. So how many Indians should be employed by the American companies (both tech and non-tech) active in Indian market? Should Indians be working on localization only or on the core technology? It seems to me, at current H-1B levels, the balance is heavily skewed towards trade rather than labor mobility.
Also how does H-1B decrease the salaries of Americans? H-1B makes American companies more competitive. And they are able to sell products in more markets. A cut in free labor mobility will lead to cut in free trade from the other side. Imagine you are a startup founder. You go to a VC and tell him/her that you plan to hire only natives and sell only in the local market. Do you think you will get any funds from the VC? If yes, then will you get more funds (and more revenue and salary) if your startup hires at the best talent/cost and is able to sell all around the world? The point being that there is a reason that as software engineer you earn 150k in US, not 40-70k as earned by software engineers in other developed countries.
And then there are studies showing that each H-1B creates 2-5 jobs in the US (some studies quote a much higher number...)
On these more controversial political threads: How are certain accounts instantaneously downvoted to dead on HN, within single-digit seconds? Seems automated but entirely too hard to tell.
For example, l3m0ndr0p (yeah, I'm totally him/her) made an "America first" type of comment. I know that doesn't play well with a lot of HNers, but seeing it instantly downvoted to dead was weird, too.
I know there's a left-ish bias here, I'm a bit left, but this feels different.
American corporations want to make profit year over year. (The announcing the quarterly or annual reports ? )
IT jobs has a tradition of being highly paid. When the revenues are less, the course of action is to cut the expenses and hence the salaries. So if a corporation want to make profit, they can hire workers with the minimum lawful wage. Indian bodyshops are catering to that demand. Its that simple.
Cutting salaries or firing American workers will lead to PR nightmare. So American companies hire bodyshops or majorly Indian IT outsourcing companies like TCS or Infosys to do the IT jobs.
Most enterprise IT do not need high skills. ( I mean who wants to know about data structures or Big O to make a CRUD application or write queries ? ). So a major chunk of Indian IT workers fit in that category.
So American enterprises get the work done at a cheaper rate in India or through the H1B worker. So no firing or salary cuts for the American worker.
Fire an H1B worker, he will keep silent and go back to his country if he is a fulltime worker. If he is from a bodyshop, he will be deployed to another location in the US. No PR nightmare for the corporate company.
In a nutshell:
Indian outsourcing firms are only here because American corporations want more profit and revenues are not that great. Stop being greedy and outsourcing will end, that includes H1B too.
“This does nothing,” said Senator Charles Schumer of New York, the Democratic leader. “Like all the other executive orders, it’s just words — he’s calling for new studies. It’s not going to fix the problem. It’s not going to create a single job.”
The article concludes with a great suggestion: "A better change would be to end the rule whereby H-1B recipients must stay with the company that sponsored them"
Its the companies like TCS that get the profits while kind-of-abusing their H1B employees who get stuck for 5-10 years because they want to pursue the American dream
1. Increase the minimum salary a bit - but not too much - you don't want to kill startups
2. Remove the H1B restriction on changing employers
3. Impose a rule to make sure that the employer does restrict movement by imposing any other policy.
4. Let those H1Bs stay in the country, without a job, for max 6 months. This will allow them to circumvent certain irrevocable binding policies from previous employer
5. Also ensure that the H1B employee movement is not restricted by company's policies in other countries. If they want to - make them pay 100K minimum. Example: If TCS is not able to create an employee-binding policy in US, it certainly will do it back home in India.
EDIT:
PS: Even as an Indian, I would love to see some blanket H1B restrictions imposed on Indian IT companies, for a multitude of good reasons (for India). I believe that short term pain is necessary for India to get big gains. Unfortunately, this is not something Indian govt can do at the moment.
Easiest solution is to inflation adjust min salary of $60,000 set back in 1989 and have the limit follow inflation. Lawmakers have this tendency to not build in inflation adjustments(eg: AMT tax limit,min wage) which causes lot issues down the road.
Makes sense. Three of my cousins are working in the US on H-1B visas. None of them have a technical degree. They do manual software testing. They can do those jobs in India or someone in Alabama can do them. There's no reason to import unskilled labor.
Any argument that looks at job creation in isolation is next to worthless. Such an argument leads to conclusions like "we need visa reforms to ensure that only really skilled people get through". Skill based criteria are almost always absurd. I'm pretty sure that in a country as large as the United states, there's a good chance that you'd find enough number of skilled people in all domains. So the obvious factor which drives companies to recruit foreign workers is the cost of labour. That begs the question: "why are natives not okay to work at the salary levels of immigrant workers?". There could be two reasons: either their liabilities are greater, or it is that prevailing culture that discourages US natives to work at lower salaries". From that perspective, the natural way forward for the US government should be try and reduce the liabilities of the natives. Why cant they make education cheaper and more accessible? What can they do to reduce the price of housing? How do you reduce the cost of transportation?
IMHO blaming immigrants/the companies that hire them is not productive. Businesses try to maximize their profits; that's given. They aren't hiring immigrants through benevolence towards immigrants or aversion towards natives. The US should fix their social problems before blaming the immigrants/corporations.
Thought experiment: suppose the US decided to ban people who aren't permanent residents from working in jobs with minimal potential for creativity, and which are rote in nature: taxi and bus drivers, delivery people, gardeners, waiters, security guards, cashiers, barbers, people running a restaurant or a barbershop, etc.
Simultaneously, jobs with a potential for creativity — tech, artists, entrepreneurs, lawyers, and so on — would have unlimited open borders, perhaps with a minimum salary requirement of $100K, say. If you have a job offer that meets these requirements, a visa can be denied only if the government can provide a reason, like a criminal record or terrorist links or having committed fraud. Otherwise, the US govt would be required to let you in.
This will have the effect of safeguarding local jobs where it's hard to imagine creativity or skills making a difference to the outcome, while having an open market in areas where creativity and skills make all the difference.
I'm using the US as an example, but the principle would apply to all rich countries, or even all countries, if you consider Bangladeshis moving to India, for example.
"Given that the unemployment rate for college graduates sits at 2.5%, it is fair to say that most native workers displaced by H-1Bs land on their feet."
Working at starbucks with a huge debt load is landing on your feet?
Although Infosys and the like apply for a lot of H1Bs, they make very very few (we're talking double-digit numbers) successful applications for green cards. This means most of these people on H1Bs for the consulting companies are actually going back home.
Which means that Infosys, TCS and the like are contributing a rotating pool of about ~30k-40k "migrant" software labor consisting of individuals who live in the US for a maximum of a couple of years. Could this be the reason why Americans wages are depressed? Well, let's run the numbers. There are 3.6 million software developers in the US. 40k is an insignificant fraction of that. So no. That's not it.
[+] [-] zzleeper|9 years ago|reply
Most PhDs, specially in STEM, math, stats, econ, etc. are not American. And almost all of them end up with a H1B visa at some point if they remain in the US.
It might be lottery based if you go to work at any firm, or quota-free if it is in academia/nonprofits/govt, but it's still through H1B.
Now, what happens if you kill the H1B?
1) Applications from qualified foreigners to US PhDs drop a lot, because they know they won't be able to find a US-based job. 2) Every firm that does R&D, from Boeing to Amazon, will lose out on a large pool of very skilled workers, that are very hard to replace (how easy is it to replace a CS PhD working on LIDARs for self driving cars?)
All in all, I don't think critics understand this side of the value of the H1B to the US. Every year, you guys take some of the best engineers and researchers across the world, and move them to very useful roles in the US economy.
Disclaimer: I'm currently in an H1B, and would like to think my work contributes to the US. So reading all this makes me a bit sad (and unwelcome).
[+] [-] dmitrygr|9 years ago|reply
The hard part changing the rules such that PhDs and other productive uses of H1B do not suffer, but the companies exploiting the rules for slave labour do.
I assure you nobody wants to make you feel unwelcome. In fact we are happy to have you here.
[+] [-] AnAnonyCowherd|9 years ago|reply
Companies all start paying the premium for these most-sought-after and most-specialized technologists, as they should, which then causes more native-born people to pursue these jobs, knowing they won't be arbitrarily undercut by the lottery, and reaping the benefits of a top-dollar US-based education. To me, it's a national investment argument. Does a nation NOT want perfectly capable native citizens to get these lucrative types of jobs, and US-based academic institutions to get the tuition to educate them? No, it wouldn't happen overnight, but we don't have to cut it off all at once, either. The market can, and would, adjust.
My problem is that I see a lot of H1B's doing clerical jobs that don't require anything more than a 12th-grade education. Some even have MS degrees, but they're doing things that, at their most-technical, would take a trade school programming intern to do. I also know several under-employed people, who don't have college degrees, but who would be GREAT at those jobs, but can't get them because of the H1B system. None of this makes sense to me. You think only Ph.D.'s can deal with LIDAR systems? Fine. But dozens of H1B's working around me are doing their jobs without the need for even an Asscociates degree's worth of education. It seems like blatant abuse to get overqualified people on the cheap who can't leave.
[+] [-] notyourwork|9 years ago|reply
I have no problem with specializations but how many are in the US doing full stack web or general application development. It seems to me the problem is not surrounding engineers who specialize in a minority field like LIDAR. The problem is when you have a team of 15 engineers building a web application platform and 13 are H1Bs.
Also, don't take this the wrong way because I welcome you and any other H1B with open arms. I do however, personally feel there are a more companies taking advantage of the situation than not.
Curious what you or any other H1B employee feels about this point of view?
[+] [-] 8ytecoder|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] castratikron|9 years ago|reply
I don't know of any serious active effort to kill the H1B. I think that would be a disaster for the tech industry as large companies like the ones you mentioned rely on foreign talent.
The only effort I'm aware of is to raise the minimum salary to qualify for an H1B. Right now, the minimum is $60k, which, in the US, is very low for a legitimate programming job. I'm certain that H1B workers at Boeing or Amazon are getting paid more than the minimum right now. However, there do exist shops out there who exploit H1B visas for cheap labor; I've experienced them firsthand. They aren't as uncommon as you might think.
There is talk of raising the minimum to something like $120k. Surely, a PhD trained researcher at Boeing or Amazon is worth at least that. They are probably already getting paid the prevailing wage for their labor, which is a legal requirement of an H1B. In these cases, raising the minimum will not affect them at all.
Recall that the original purpose of the H1B was to fill a demand for high tech, specialist roles. Is there any high tech, specialist role that is only worth $60k these days? I don't think so.
[+] [-] nullnilvoid|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chrisper|9 years ago|reply
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39632182
But H1B abuse needs to stop. It would even help you if there was a proper alternative.
[+] [-] warcher|9 years ago|reply
The solution (which we'll never see) is just to de-couple the H1-B from a particular employer. Go on the open market, get a job at market rates, but don't play the indentured servitude game they're forcing you into now. That's all.
[+] [-] hiram112|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] azinman2|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beefsmoke|9 years ago|reply
Indian outsourcing firms are notoriously spamming the H1B with low-salary petitions completely offsetting the chances of these post-grads looking for work. What you end up getting is doctors and engineers not being able to work in the US and you have some low level programmer that can't even do their work well without you babysitting through the work they are supposed to be qualified to do.
[+] [-] ChemicalWarfare|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tkt|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ThomPete|9 years ago|reply
Thats what I did.
[+] [-] TheBobinator|9 years ago|reply
Brain-drain is a myth. I'm taking an x64 assembler course at an accredited institution right now; the 2 Indian foreign transfer students were worse than the 1 kid in class that literally plays WOW during lecture. They didn't pay attention, they didn't work, they tried to cheat their way through, and eventually dropped. Literally, I have teachers who randomize and change their assignments to catch people like them, and while I'm not going to hang the entire institutions cheating problems on those 2 kids, I will be willing to bet dollars to donuts most of the kids we are getting are rich kids with similar problems.
When I, as an American who's family goes back to before the war for independence, hear of "Rich Foreigners Kids" I think either Russian Mob or some corrupt Russian businessmen, or an Afghani Opium farmer, or some Indian Kshatriya. Call me jerk all you want, but facts are facts. Poor Geniuses from India don't have the resources to come here are foreign transfer students. Recently I had an assignment from my boss to go stalk a Chinese railroad construction company who was putting down roots in the US. Turns out all the people they are hiring state-side are, surprise surprise, Chinese foreign transfer students or people disgruntled with US institutions they want to steal technology from. If poor kids make it into US educational institutions, that is how they get in. Some foreign Government's interest in something in the US. Either way, their background is diametrically opposed to what it is to be American. Being American is not about drawing a nice paycheck; it's fundamentally about fighting for your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Take a 2nd Generation Mexican down to the gun range sometime, all of a sudden they realize they aren't 2nd class citizens anymore once you explain to them if the cops take your guns and arrest you for your skin color that's a great pay day for you., They understand, intrinsically, because their home country, Mexico, is unbelievably messed up, why firearm ownership is meaningful. If everyone has an AK47, the drug gangs are incentivized to be extraordinarily polite, mass graves do not happen.
You will never, ever get the poor kids who work their way up through their education system or business magnates who persevered without a college degree coming here as transfer students; that is what H1B is for. No Business magnate from Russia is ever going to come to the US to participate in our Ideology; whatever area they are in, they own it lock stock and barrel. The poor kids have to be financed by someone; business magnate or government, pick one. Both of those expect loyalty.
That is what H1B is for. Business managers will argue that they need "IT Geniuses" and honestly, they have zero capability to tell the difference between an entry level "Genius" and a bonafide professional. H1B is not for bringing in entry level people. What it is there for, fundamentally, is when you get the 3rd Reich starting up and they begin burning the Jews, typically, educated people see that coming a-ways off. Economic calamity often leads to political instability; If you're going to get into a war, best to grab as many educated people as possible from that foreign country as you can get. Maybe they get the ideology while they are here, maybe they like it and stay. Who knows. Moving away from your family and friend requires some serious motivation.
Indians by and large do not come here through H1B because India is a horrible hitler-esque dystopia. They do not come here because they urn to be free. They come here to scam, it's an empirical fact, Plain and simple. Let me prove it. Wipro, TaTa, WNS. Whenever Americans are being outsourced, it's one of those companies doing it, it is a scam, it is dishonest, it is asset stripping people's paychecks.
We, like idiots, encourage that scamming blinded by these fantasies about foreigners thinking so highly of of our technology, money, and world power that they want to come here from their whatever shazbot-hole country they come from; it's as if everyone has been infected by the thinking of King George of England. Nowhere anywhere in Mainstream Media, do you ever see anyone quoting an immigrant these days who wants to come here to share in our Ideology. That Ideology is the reason for the economy, capital, and technology and military, and we forget that.
In Summary.
If you're here for the economic incentive, Get the F@##$!@$k out. I don't have time for your kind.
If you're here to be American and contribute, Welcome. We've got a lot of idiots here. Buy them booze and get them hammered. Do that a few times, you'll find friends willing to bury a body with you.
[+] [-] bingomad123|9 years ago|reply
1. Indian consultancies have provided valuable labor in large quantity to US firms. 2. This has helped US firms remain competitive in the world. From ATT or Bank of America to Toyota and Sears everyone has super large outsourcing centers in India which help them keep costs low for American consumers. 3. Cheap labor with high skills coming to USA is a good thing. It makes the economy get more efficient and grows the size of pie where everyone gets employed. 4. US Tech sector has outperformed all sectors in terms of both growth and employment numbers. Most of the H1Bs goes to tech companies and guess what ? They have the lowest unemployment rate.
There are no job losses because of H1B. If H1B program is completely shut-down US economy would take a pretty bad hit and total number of jobs in USA will go down and more jobs will simply move to India.
[+] [-] coygui|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] molyss|9 years ago|reply
That's completely ignoring the fact that if you have cheaper workers, you end up being underpaid and/or doing a job you'd rather not be doing. Unemployment rate alone don't tell the whole story, and failing to acknowledge that sounds like poor/partial journalism to me
[+] [-] l3m0ndr0p|9 years ago|reply
First hand experience: If you have an open request to hire, you are required to first look to one of the few outsourcing firms we have a contract with. You cannot post the job for external until you have searched for the "best" person within their ranks. The "Best" being somebody super cheap & not qualified, but they assure us that person will learn on the job. I'd rather hire a full time College or High school graduate from the USA at a reasonable cost, train & maybe they will stay for the duration, but I know I'll get great work out of that person, better than the outsourced person.
America is being scammed by the our own American Corporations. I've seen too many people lose their jobs because of outsourcing & they didn't fall back on their feet.
I'd like to see the next Steve Jobs, Bill Gates come out of providing good paying jobs to US Citizens.
[+] [-] nullnilvoid|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] epa|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thewhitetulip|9 years ago|reply
Edit: Changed country.
[+] [-] ta78637|9 years ago|reply
Personally I find this line of thought (cliche?) frustrating. Not just because apparently us proles should be making our policy decisions based merely on whether we just might get to bask in some future billionaire's magnificence, but also because, isn't this a somewhat empirically testable proposition? That is, how many Musk-like or Brin-like individuals have come through TCS or Wipro or Infosys on a H-1B so far?
[+] [-] an_cap|9 years ago|reply
A minimally decent person would notice that the obviously correct thing to do would be to remove the requirement that blacks get an H-1Black license before being allowed to work. The ethical intuition that leads to this conclusion, I think, is that one shouldn't be discriminated against based on one's circumstances at birth. Everybody (at least on HN) seems to agree that if an employer is willing to hire me, third parties (i.e. other people who also wanted the same job) shouldn't be allowed to prevent the employer from hiring me just because I was born the wrong race or the wrong gender. But people seem to think that if I were born on the wrong side of the border then its totally fine for third parties to demand preferential treatment.
Can someone explain the logic to me? Why is it not okay to discriminate on the basis of race or gender but okay to discriminate on the basis of citizenship/country of birth? Would it be okay if NYC started requiring people outside New York to obtain a highly scarce license to be able to work in NYC? Could whites start requiring non-whites to obtain a license?
[+] [-] SilasX|9 years ago|reply
FWIW, the same assumption would eliminate your ability to object when a foreign army wants to peacefully enter on the pretense of just wanting a better life.
And if you assume away the legitimacy of property rights, you look pretty atrocious turning away the homeless from your property.
I don't think it's hard to see why national and property borders might be not objectionable, but blanket racial job restrictions would be.
[+] [-] aangjie|9 years ago|reply
Because, a country and it's city, and infrastructure have been built by money spent on by a bunch of people who paid taxes. For a another country, person to come in enjoy the infrastructure, make money and compete with the ones who paid for the infrastructure is unfair by design.
Disclaimer: I'm an Indian working in India.
[+] [-] aaronblohowiak|9 years ago|reply
Globally, labor isn't scarce. If there were a true global labor pool, wages in USA would be further depressed.
People have no intrinsic right to immigrate into the country of their choice (they do have a right to leave their country if another will take them, however..)
[+] [-] ageek123|9 years ago|reply
However, the US government can decide who is eligible to work in the country, just like it can decide who is eligible for legal residence, citizenship, etc.
[+] [-] ikeyany|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] qaq|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] taway_1212|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheBiv|9 years ago|reply
I believe the logic comes down to the highest constitution you bind yourself to.
By birth we are bound to our country of birth's constitution and once we become an adult we have the ability to renounce that constitution and apply to be bound by another countries constitution.
[+] [-] idaw|9 years ago|reply
My roommate's on an H1B but he can't just quit his tech job and work on a startup, despite having a few hundred thousand dollars in the bank and being a very successful developer.
Yet there are organizations like Define American, whose founder is an undocumented worker, encouraging people to give sanctuary to people who live here illegally. In 2015, LA allowed undocumented workers to get driver's licenses and 800,000 were issued. There's something like 2-2.5 million people living here illegally.
I have compassion for those who arrived here illegally and have families and lives. And I hope we can find some solution to fixing that problem. But it seems incredibly unfair that we make it hard for smart people to come and work in the US. If you can qualify initially for an H1B visa, I feel like you should be granted a green card with a path to citizenship. I
[+] [-] yks|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bwang29|9 years ago|reply
I've stayed in the US as a collage student, then graduate student from a top university then starting my company for a total of 9 years. I lost the H1B lottery twice and have been on F1 then F1-OPT, then F1-OPT-STEM_EXT in the first 8 years. I recently successfully converted into an O1 this year, therefore finally bypassing the H1B lottery. I consider the O1 visa a life saver but not everyone is that lucky to be able to apply. Now the thing is, my O1 visa is a single-entry visa, meaning I have to stay in US for 3 years until it expires and I can't leave the country otherwise I can never come back to this country again.
Edit: Obviously someone found out that O1 is single entry for Chinese nationals, and it might not be the case for most other nationals.
[+] [-] virtuabhi|9 years ago|reply
Is "free" trade possible without "free" labor mobility? Currently, 11 of the top 15 tech companies in India are American. For most of the multinational US companies, India (not EU, not China) is the biggest consumer (after US) or growth region. So how many Indians should be employed by the American companies (both tech and non-tech) active in Indian market? Should Indians be working on localization only or on the core technology? It seems to me, at current H-1B levels, the balance is heavily skewed towards trade rather than labor mobility.
Also how does H-1B decrease the salaries of Americans? H-1B makes American companies more competitive. And they are able to sell products in more markets. A cut in free labor mobility will lead to cut in free trade from the other side. Imagine you are a startup founder. You go to a VC and tell him/her that you plan to hire only natives and sell only in the local market. Do you think you will get any funds from the VC? If yes, then will you get more funds (and more revenue and salary) if your startup hires at the best talent/cost and is able to sell all around the world? The point being that there is a reason that as software engineer you earn 150k in US, not 40-70k as earned by software engineers in other developed countries.
And then there are studies showing that each H-1B creates 2-5 jobs in the US (some studies quote a much higher number...)
Isn't this an example of win-win?
[+] [-] weirdstuff|9 years ago|reply
For example, l3m0ndr0p (yeah, I'm totally him/her) made an "America first" type of comment. I know that doesn't play well with a lot of HNers, but seeing it instantly downvoted to dead was weird, too.
I know there's a left-ish bias here, I'm a bit left, but this feels different.
[+] [-] ouesp|9 years ago|reply
American corporations want to make profit year over year. (The announcing the quarterly or annual reports ? )
IT jobs has a tradition of being highly paid. When the revenues are less, the course of action is to cut the expenses and hence the salaries. So if a corporation want to make profit, they can hire workers with the minimum lawful wage. Indian bodyshops are catering to that demand. Its that simple.
Cutting salaries or firing American workers will lead to PR nightmare. So American companies hire bodyshops or majorly Indian IT outsourcing companies like TCS or Infosys to do the IT jobs.
Most enterprise IT do not need high skills. ( I mean who wants to know about data structures or Big O to make a CRUD application or write queries ? ). So a major chunk of Indian IT workers fit in that category.
So American enterprises get the work done at a cheaper rate in India or through the H1B worker. So no firing or salary cuts for the American worker.
Fire an H1B worker, he will keep silent and go back to his country if he is a fulltime worker. If he is from a bodyshop, he will be deployed to another location in the US. No PR nightmare for the corporate company.
In a nutshell:
Indian outsourcing firms are only here because American corporations want more profit and revenues are not that great. Stop being greedy and outsourcing will end, that includes H1B too.
[+] [-] vmarsy|9 years ago|reply
And a quote from the NYT article[1]:
“This does nothing,” said Senator Charles Schumer of New York, the Democratic leader. “Like all the other executive orders, it’s just words — he’s calling for new studies. It’s not going to fix the problem. It’s not going to create a single job.”
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/18/us/politics/executive-ord...
[+] [-] anupshinde|9 years ago|reply
Its the companies like TCS that get the profits while kind-of-abusing their H1B employees who get stuck for 5-10 years because they want to pursue the American dream
1. Increase the minimum salary a bit - but not too much - you don't want to kill startups
2. Remove the H1B restriction on changing employers
3. Impose a rule to make sure that the employer does restrict movement by imposing any other policy.
4. Let those H1Bs stay in the country, without a job, for max 6 months. This will allow them to circumvent certain irrevocable binding policies from previous employer
5. Also ensure that the H1B employee movement is not restricted by company's policies in other countries. If they want to - make them pay 100K minimum. Example: If TCS is not able to create an employee-binding policy in US, it certainly will do it back home in India.
EDIT: PS: Even as an Indian, I would love to see some blanket H1B restrictions imposed on Indian IT companies, for a multitude of good reasons (for India). I believe that short term pain is necessary for India to get big gains. Unfortunately, this is not something Indian govt can do at the moment.
[+] [-] adrr|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] exabrial|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asdf32fsdf|9 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jiraaya|9 years ago|reply
IMHO blaming immigrants/the companies that hire them is not productive. Businesses try to maximize their profits; that's given. They aren't hiring immigrants through benevolence towards immigrants or aversion towards natives. The US should fix their social problems before blaming the immigrants/corporations.
[+] [-] kartickv|9 years ago|reply
Simultaneously, jobs with a potential for creativity — tech, artists, entrepreneurs, lawyers, and so on — would have unlimited open borders, perhaps with a minimum salary requirement of $100K, say. If you have a job offer that meets these requirements, a visa can be denied only if the government can provide a reason, like a criminal record or terrorist links or having committed fraud. Otherwise, the US govt would be required to let you in.
This will have the effect of safeguarding local jobs where it's hard to imagine creativity or skills making a difference to the outcome, while having an open market in areas where creativity and skills make all the difference.
I'm using the US as an example, but the principle would apply to all rich countries, or even all countries, if you consider Bangladeshis moving to India, for example.
[+] [-] TP4Cornholio|9 years ago|reply
Working at starbucks with a huge debt load is landing on your feet?
[+] [-] jcriddle4|9 years ago|reply
http://www.epi.org/publication/class-of-2016/
[+] [-] wsxcde|9 years ago|reply
Which means that Infosys, TCS and the like are contributing a rotating pool of about ~30k-40k "migrant" software labor consisting of individuals who live in the US for a maximum of a couple of years. Could this be the reason why Americans wages are depressed? Well, let's run the numbers. There are 3.6 million software developers in the US. 40k is an insignificant fraction of that. So no. That's not it.